Vomikron Noxis Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Greetings all, I'm chopping and changing my list, as is usually the way after a games night. I currently run a fairly standard Chaos list with 2 DPs, 2x2 Oblits, 3 PMs in rhinos, and a termicide squad. Now, the single termicide squad has to go. They're cheap and potentially a good investment, but they just dont do it for me. So they're being dropped in favour of two more Oblits (who ALWAYS do it for me!). The problem however, is that to include 2 more oblits, I would have to drop the psychic powers on my DPs (rot and warptime). What is everyone's take on this? I would argue that a 150pt DP (Nurgle + wings) is still very killy and a great investment, and given their limited survivability, the psychic powers dont get used all that much anyway. Any thoughts? (Please consider the context of the list as a whole too). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 DPs without psychic powers aren't that hot in my opinion. Why not drop 1 DP, keep the termicide squad and then add 2x Oblits? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2051302 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vomikron Noxis Posted July 16, 2009 Author Share Posted July 16, 2009 Cos 2 DPs are incredible! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2051338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 I actually have thought about this reciently. Not from a pts. saving persrective (well that ties in of course) but b/c so many armies have anti-psycher stuff, s/m libbies psychic hood comes standard, ELDAR forget about it, don't nid synapse creatures have some anti-psyc stuff now too. Some of the psych pwrs are awesome (I've never taken a DP w/out WT) but if the psy gets shut down, you've paid alot of pts for nothing. They can't shut down +1 attack or +1 toughness. Pts well spent. Not to mention you could fail a PotW test. You could throw in doombolt, it's useful vs meq's, but if they shut it down you've only lost 10 pts (still have the PotW thing to worry'bout though) The next time I use DP (been having a good time w/ my lord lately) I'm going to try MoN as "counts as" "protection of the gods" (fluff reasons) and no WT. I'm sure I will miss WT when I roll a handful of 1's :P but it will cost 5 pts less then my undivided DP w/ WT and the +1 T can't be shut down and no PotW test (nevr failed one actually but would have to sooner or later). I'm gonna give it a try. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2051416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Look at it this way, an unmarked Daemon Prince with no powers is a steal at 130 points. He's cheaper and tougher then most anything Loyalists can put out and a drastically reduced price. If you don't run with marks of powers (I'm lumping them together) all that you're losing is oppurtunity cost. You're losing out on the chance of making him better. Given the OP's scenario of 2 Obliterators for 2 powers, I'd say its absolutely worth it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2051498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citizen Snips Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Two princes beefed up will outperform two more obliterator IMO. However, I do run generic Princes when I am playing my Eldar friend. A Slaneesh Prince is a great buy vs Eldar for only 135 points. They aren't terrible without powers, you really only need to run generic ones if you are playing with people with hoods or Eldar stones. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2051529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeons Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Two princes beefed up will outperform two more obliterator IMO. However, I do run generic Princes when I am playing my Eldar friend. A Slaneesh Prince is a great buy vs Eldar for only 135 points. They aren't terrible without powers, you really only need to run generic ones if you are playing with people with hoods or Eldar stones. after giving this some thought: i think against eldar i would drop the demon prince all together and go with a chaos sorcerer with the mark of nurgle, nurgles rot, a combi-bolter and say....a power sword.(maybe just a chainsword to keep him cheaper) my reasoning: the eldar have sooo many things that're amazing at killing monstrous creatures; fire dragons, war walkers, fire prisms, vypers, heck even a wraithlord could probably at least tarpit a demon prince. and of course avatars can go toe to toe with them. just seems much safer to stick a sorcerer in a squad where he's harder to target. and as for losing lash of submission; most elder units you REALLY don't want to drag towards you anyway, like striking scorpions, howling banshees, wraithguard, etc plus with the points saved you could add in other things, to bolster other weaknesses in your list specifically against eldar. just a thought, anyway. edit: errr i just looked at the points. ok so it wouldn't be cheaper than a demon prince haha, but the other points still stand. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2051977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord gunthar Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 ahh pigeons chaos sorcerors come standard with a force weapon which a power weapon whick also allows for you to roll a psychic test once per turn and you can then allocate a wound you caused with the force weapon to cause id Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2051982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeons Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 ahh pigeons chaos sorcerors come standard with a force weapon which a power weapon whick also allows for you to roll a psychic test once per turn and you can then allocate a wound you caused with the force weapon to cause id yeah i really shouldn't try to come up with tactics when i've been drinking ^_^ just ignore me haha Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2051985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 never a problem ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2051995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 If you want a Deamon Prine with no powers you might wanna consider a Khorne Deamon prince. With Wings he comes in at 140 points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2052225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 If you want a Deamon Prine with no powers you might wanna consider a Khorne Deamon prince. With Wings he comes in at 140 points. Always a good idea too. For cheap Daemon Princes, I'd say that the choice really comes down to Doombolt or Mark of Khorne. Both are effective and bargain priced. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2052581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
farseerixirvost Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I more often run my DP w/ simply wings. Gets a TON of HUH?!? responses. But he's cheap and effective. Maybe I just don't know any better, but it works just fine for me - he's often still alive at end game and done a good job in the process... You might also consider a GD, doesn't have the speed per se, but usually comes out "close enough", costs less, and has several stats at a higher # than the DP counterpart. (just a thought, not necessarily a good one) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2055596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 if youd DP is alive at the end of a game then either you won with massacer , play against a sub par list or your opponent is doing something wrong. and a GD does not cost less then a DP . GD cost is GD + asp champion [lets say we wont count the wholse squad as a cost for taking him] any fists/combi weapons you bought for him. then he costs almost as much as a DP , only without wings , making one of your units weaker and this unit is already close to the enemy to bring out the GD or the GD is wasted , so there is a chance that the unit will die too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2055976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 if youd DP is alive at the end of a game then either you won with massacer , play against a sub par list or your opponent is doing something wrong. and a GD does not cost less then a DP . GD cost is GD + asp champion [lets say we wont count the wholse squad as a cost for taking him] any fists/combi weapons you bought for him. then he costs almost as much as a DP , only without wings , making one of your units weaker and this unit is already close to the enemy to bring out the GD or the GD is wasted , so there is a chance that the unit will die too. G.Daemon also has alot better stats overall. His delivery system is much like wings and his in combat summoning rules are incredible. If the champ is in combat and you dont have room to place him, place him an inch away from combat, charge in and you get your extra attack. My friends actually very much hate the undivided daemon prince because he gets into CC so easily without being on the board to widdle down with some small arms fire. Though every so often he will pop out turn two and get rocked walking up the board :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2056235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 yeah i really shouldn't try to come up with tactics when i've been drinking :) I've never come up with tactics w/out drinking. Being a good 40k General is all about steadying the nerves. ;) :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2056274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I'm going to have to side with Jeske in this one, I don't think the Generic Greater Daemon (GGD) is super viable. However there are ways you can play with it to make it better. Note: total cost is for the GGD, not the squad. 1) Naked Champion in a 5 man Melta and/or Flamer Raptor squad, these guys are fast enough to get close to the battle and they can function just as well with 4 guys as they can with 5. Of course I'd say you'd need 2+ of such squads because your opponent will catch on after one game. total cost = 135 2) Naked Champion in a 3 man Melta and/or Flamer Biker squad. Basically the same as above. More expensive and less bodies but you're faster thanks to turbo-boost. Probably not as good as Raptors honestly. total cost = 148 3) Naked Champion in a 5 man CSM squad w/ Rhino. A scoring version of the above units. I'd probably toss them a Flamer and hide in the Rhino, burning things. Out pops out the GGD + 2" bonus from Rhino hull and causes mayhem. total cost = 130 4) Naked Champion in a 5 man Havock squad w/ Rhino. Non-scoring version of #3. You could be crazy and load up with 4 specials. Scary but fragile as all hell. total cost = 130 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2056289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manning Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Daemon Prince - Wings, Khorne Works like a treat in my armour heavy list.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2057315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I still find it hilarious a single GD from a unit of Rubric Marines, took out two Lash Princes with wings, and then the vindicator next turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2057321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I don't see how that happened ? Had your opponent fallen asleep ? Was he an 8 year old ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2057330 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 No, the Tournament area wasn't Air Conditioned and this was the final round, and we're in Florida. By that time you were either aggravated or you were half dead. We were in the back area where there weren't even any fans circulating air. No, adult, guy was playing for a while. It was a guy and another dude with Chaos Marines. I was spectating. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2057336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 No, the Tournament area wasn't Air Conditioned and this was the final round, and we're in Florida. By that time you were either aggravated or you were half dead. We were in the back area where there weren't even any fans circulating air. No, adult, guy was playing for a while. You out lasted the guy vs heat exhaustion, a well deserved win. :) "you must keep your head, while those about you are loseing theirs' " some smart guy said that. Besides I love hearing about dual lash cheez ballz getting slapped around. Well played sir. Well then well played to whoever it was. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2057341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 It wasn't me, it was two other people, hence the edit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2057348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 To be honest I ran a Khornate DP with wings alongside Khârn and they were a brutal tandem team. It actually worked great. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173550-daemon-princes-without-psychic-powers/#findComment-2057415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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