Rerolling Scatter Die vs. Scatter Dice

[Coyote]

So, I got involved in this side conversation earlier regarding the reroll of scatter dice:

Aid Unlooked For:

...so you can re-roll the deepstrike SCATTER dice if you wish.

 

This is exactly what is says in the Codex, I play them also and I only re-roll the scatter dice and that is the dice with the arrows on it, that one is called the scatter dice and the other two you throw with them are D6.

So if you scatter to far you can always re-roll the dice with the arrows this is

RAW

and

RAI

.

Wow. I was all geared up to refute your point. And then I reread the rules for "Dice" on

pg

2 of the 40k rulebook. ^_^

 

SCATTER DICE

...The scatter dice is marked on four sides with an arrow, and on two sides with a special 'HIT' symbol.

golly!!! It appears that, once again,

GW

neglected to edit the main rulebook and/or chooses not to write in Standard English (I'd expect at least American English, if not Oxford.)

Merrium-Webster's defines "dice" as the plural of "die"

, as does the Oxford dictionary

, thus my confusion.

Well, since it appears that the main rulebook is written in an alternate language

, I must conclude that your interpretation is correct. Go figure. ;)

So, here's my dilemma: When we reroll scatter dice, should we reroll just the "arrow" die defined in the BRB as the "scatter dice" or that die along with the 2D6 (or however many D6 is appropriate)?

[Dezartfox]

It usually states whether the distance or jsut the arrow can be re rolled. I can't think of an example off the top of my head sorry.

 

They say "dice" as it's the most common way, do you say "die"?

[ShinyRhino]

In the US, a single, numbered cube is a "die". "Dice" refers to more than one "die".

[Coyote]

Yeah, "Die" is the singular of "Dice" in both American and Oxford English. And I disagree on what the rules normally state. They seem to use "Dice" interchangeably with "Die", and thus I'm now confused as heck. -_-

 

Oh, I forgot in my frustration, to post this in the "Rules" forum. Could one of the Admins kindly move it?

[Vissah]

But it should not matter if they write scatter dice or scatter die cause there is only one scatter die and that is the one with the arrows.

Even if it is called a scatter dice it is still the one with the arrows, when you throw for the LotD you only throw one so to me it makes sense to just re-roll the one with the arrows on it.

 

But English is not my first language and I did not know the difference between die and dice so maybe this is why it made more snse to me :)

But now I know it I can understand why you are confused with it.

[ShinyRhino]

But it should not matter if they write scatter dice or scatter die cause there is only one scatter die and that is the one with the arrows.

Even if it is called a scatter dice it is still the one with the arrows, when you throw for the LotD you only throw one so to me it makes sense to just re-roll the one with the arrows on it.

 

Well, the problem lies in that you do NOT roll just one "scatter die". You roll three. The targeter (hits and arrows) and the distance dice. The whole set counts as a set of "scatter dice" to many folks.

TBH,. this will boil down to a Grey Area rule. I'd suggest going with your shop's standard, or talk to your opponent about it before the game.

[Brother Xeones]

I agree with Vissah's interpretation, but I agree that it's ambiguous as to which is the correct version.

 

I'd say that you only ever roll one scatter die (or "dice" if you are GW :D ) so it doesn't really matter if they can't remember how to write English. They explain on page two of the BRB that "scatter dice" have arrows on them. The other dice associated with determining scatter are not scatter dice and therefore not re-rollable. I don't think its legitimate to assume that they would refer to all dice in a scatter roll as "scatter dice".

 

Allowing you to re-roll the scatter dice is still nice since it gives you slightly better than a 50% chance to hit your drop zone on target --as opposed to the normal 33% chance or 66% chance to deviate at least two inches. It's not quite as useful if as if you could re-reroll everything, but still not shabby.

[Moonsword]

After seeing this discussion, I'm going with my original option 3 from a PM to Coyote: Go all Commissar-style on GW's editors until they hire competent staffers who actually know proper English.

 

For a direct answer, ShinyRhino's probably got it as close as we're going to get. I agree in principle with just the direction die, but personally, I'm not that stuck on fine points of the rules. It's a game. I don't like to lose, but I'm not a tournament player, and in a match with friends, there's no reason to cause a stink over gray areas like this.

[ShinyRhino]

There is also the possibility that the editor missed the improper use of "is" in the sentence on BRB pg2. It's grammatically incorrect.

But now I'm just flogging a dead horse.

[Cypher 102]

After seeing this discussion, I'm going with my original option 3 from a PM to Coyote: Go all Commissar-style on GW's editors until they hire competent staffers who actually know proper English.

Could be worse, they could replace them with Forge World's editor. I don't think they even read the books between writing them and publishing them.

[avatar8481]

After seeing this discussion, I'm going with my original option 3 from a PM to Coyote: Go all Commissar-style on GW's editors until they hire competent staffers who actually know proper English.

 

It seems to me the problem isn't proper-english, but rather too much colloqiul useage and not enough diligence about terms, definitions, inheritances and the kind of things actual lawyers, computer programmers and other rules-users deal with constantly.

[SeattleDV8]

Not unclear at all, just not easy to find.

BRB Pg 30 Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls "....must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."

[Thantoes]

I think this can be answered by looking at the Deep Strike rules themselves

 

Pg 95 BRB (section on deepstike, 2nd paragraph" - "in the position you would like the unit to arrive and roll the scatter dice. If you roll a hit the model stays where it is but if an arrow is shown this determines the direction the model is scattered. If a scatter occurs, roll 2D6"

 

I think this clearly shows that the phrase "scatter dice" refers to the single dice with arrows and a bullseye on it and not to all 3. This is however only in relation to deepstike. The usage of scatter dice for blast, barrage etc is a whole different story.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

Well, the problem lies in that you do NOT roll just one "scatter die". You roll three. The targeter (hits and arrows) and the distance dice. The whole set counts as a set of "scatter dice" to many folks.

TBH,. this will boil down to a Grey Area rule. I'd suggest going with your shop's standard, or talk to your opponent about it before the game.

 

I support this one. I never even thought for a second that it only meant the scatter die itself, that it meant all three dice you use to scatter. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

[Legatus]

When I was thinking about the Legion of the Damned re-roll ability for the scatter dice I also assumed it would enable the player to re-roll the distance as well as the direction, but after reading the blast weapon and the deep strike entry it is evident that the term "scatter dice" only refers to the direction die.

 

Edit: The online translation dictionary I often use has "dice" as a possible singular.

[Moonsword]

That dictionary is wrong, then. Email them about it. While it's a very common mistake, it's still a mistake.

[Legatus]

Wiki has it as a commonly used singular as well though.

[Coyote]

Oh, well, ok then. Since 5th Ed. was written in slang, I propose that 6th Ed. be written in Pig Latin. In order to help everyone translate, I'm providing this link to a Pig Latin translator, so that everyone can clearly understand the rulebook. The original quote from the Legion of the Damned entry will now read:

Aidway Unlookedway Orfay:

...osay ouyay ancay eray-ollray ethay eepstrikeday ATTERSCAY

iceday ifway ouyay ishway.

Problem solved.

 

Oh, BTW, my local GW rerolls all dice related to the the original roll. Thus, if I originally rolled the die with the arrows (or Scatter Die) + 2 Die 6, I'd reroll all three dice.

[nighthawks]

amusing.

 

the English language has gone haywire in recent years, due to the ability of so many to communicate and so few to do so correctly.

 

where I work we deal in silicon ICs, or "chips" which are "diced" from a wafer into many "die".. or, apparently, if our internal vernacular is observed, "dies". so we have the opposite problem.

 

I do hear a lot of guys at the FLGS refer to a single cube with pips as "a dice" and i manage to not loose my cool. it's a growing issue, there's little that we can do about it. as GW has elected to use the term "dice" when referring to a single die (and to throw in the term "die" just to remind us that we are all, actually, insane) then we have to assume that they mean a single piece when the word is presented. in the case of scatter, it is tricky as they also use "dice" as the plural (I've heard "dices" and DID loose my cool) and there are 3 rolled as a rule, one of which specifically referred to as "the scatter dice".

 

it's not a grey area within the rules so much as within the language. despite the off-topic nature, I think it would be amusing to amass the die/dice/dies/dices tales here. I'll find a better place to put it if need be.

[jeffersonian000]

The first time scatter dice are mentioned in the BRB is under Blast weapons, were it specifically states that any re-rolls involve all three dice (pg 30). The next is under Barrage weapons (pg 32) where it again treats all three dice as a single set. The third place in the BRB is under Mission Specific Rules (pg 95), where its states at first to roll scatter dice as a set, then advises that on anything other than a hit you would then roll 2d6 for distance.

 

With this, the only precedence we have for how to treat re-rolling scatter dice tells us roll all three again, while the only precedence we have for rolling just the Hit/Direction die is when a "hit" is rolled.

 

As such, the only time you would re-roll 1 of the scatter dice is if a "Hit" is rolled, with the remaining 2d6 rolled if a "Hit" is not rolled.

 

SJ

[JMcL63]

Wiki has it as a commonly used singular as well though.

[geek]

'Die' is always singular; 'dice' has long since passed into common usage as singular as well as plural. It's the dictionaries which are wrong if they haven't caught up with this. And yes, I did go and check my own dictionaries on this point when, after many years, I got plain fed up of the sheer clunkiness of 'die' in everyday usage, and decided I'd much rather go with the flow and just use 'dice' instead. After all I reasoned, I couldn't think of a single situation in which the use of 'die' had made the meaning clearer; or in which the use of 'dice' had been ambiguous; which is the point after all. :P

 

BTW, my dictionaries are:

• Chambers 20th Century Dictionary, 1983.
  
• New Penguin English Dictionary, 2001
  

So the Chambers shows that this usage has been recognised for about a generation.

[/geek]

:P

 

PS. To avoid any possible confusion here: my point is not that 'die' is wrong, so continue to use it if you will; my point is that 'dice' is now recognised as both singular and plural, so those who use 'die' aren't in the right when they try to correct those who use 'dice'. OK? :P

[Moonsword]

Depends on the dictionary you check, and the fact that some of them are bowing to improper usage has very limited influence on my perception of the matter, but then, I'm a linguistic conservative. I suggest we don't continue this topic, or you're going to get a rant on the degeneration of the English language, and I really don't feel like spitting that much bile right now.

 

If you're not going to use "die" like I'd prefer, at least don't mix usage so you introduce ambiguity, which is precisely what's going on here when you use dice as a singular and die in the same book. Using both means that instead of assuming you're simply being an idiot speaking too informally for the for the text you're writing and not differentiating between them, I read it like you're using the form I was taught and raised with, even when you're not doing that. That introduces confusion. As editors of the rules, their job is supposed to be to not let that happen.

 

EDIT: Fixing typos. If I'm going to be a pedant about their editing practices in this post, I might as well practice what I preach... :huh:

[JMcL63]

Don't worry Moonsword, I had no intention of pursuing the issue here; I was just airing my view. And you are undoubtedly right about sloppy usage in GW products. I haven't read the current 40K rules closely enough to have picked up on the example in question; but I have already rediscovered that GW are as poor, in this respect, as they were 4 years ago, when I was last a regular here at the B&C.

 

Oh, and BTW, if you really fancy an erudiate exchange on the matter of the prescriptive or descriptive functions of dictionaries, you could always PM me. I'll reply if I like the cut of your bile-spattered jib! ;)

[Legatus]

The first time scatter dice are mentioned in the BRB is under Blast weapons, were it specifically states that any re-rolls involve all three dice (pg 30).

Quote: "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit and chooses to do so after firing a blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."

 

- That rule describes the process of re-rolling "to hit", not re-rolling "the scatter dice".

 

- That rule makes quite clear that the "scatter dice" is only the directional die, and not the set of directional die plus distance 2D6.

 

The next is under Barrage weapons (pg 32) where it again treats all three dice as a single set.

Quote: "Barrage weapons can fire at a target they cannot see, but if they do this, the BS of the firer makes no difference and the blast marker scatters a full 2D6" if an arrow is rolled on the scatter dice."

 

Quote: "Once the first blast marker is placed, roll a scatter dice for each other barrage weapon fired by the unit. If an arrow is rolled, place the blast marker in the direction indicated so that it is adjacent and touching the edge of the first marker placed (...)."

 

- Again the rules make quite clear that the "scatter dice" is just the single directional die, and not the set of directional die and two D6 for distance.

 

The third place in the BRB is under Mission Specific Rules (pg 95), where its states at first to roll scatter dice as a set, then advises that on anything other than a hit you would then roll 2d6 for distance.

Quote: "First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive, and roll the scatter dice. If you roll a hit the model stays where it is, but if an arrow is shown this determines the direction the model is scattered in. If a scatter occurs, roll 2D6 to see how many inches the model moves away from the intended position."

 

- The first sentence does not in any way imply that the "scatter dice" is a set of one directional die plus two D6. Quite on the contrary, the instruction to roll 2D6 for scatter distance if an arrow is rolled on the "scatter dice" implies that the "scatter dice" is the single directional die.

 

With this, the only precedence we have for how to treat re-rolling scatter dice tells us roll all three again, while the only precedence we have for rolling just the Hit/Direction die is when a "hit" is rolled.

We have no "re-rolling scatter" in the rulebook. We have re-rolling "to hit", which includes re-rolling both the scatter dice and the 2D6 for dictance.

 

 

 

Another example not from thw rulebook would be spore mine movement in Codex Tyranids:

"Spore Mine Clusters drift D6" in the direction rolled on a scatter dice each turn."

[Isiah]

I don't see what the issue is at all. The "scatter dice" to be just that, ie the dice with the arrows and the Hit on it and nothing else, as explained on p2.

 

The intention of Aid Unlooked For is to allow you to re-roll it should you not get a Hit. Once re-rolled, if you still get an arrow, then you roll the 2D6 as normal.

 

If you look in the Deep Strike section of the rules, it's quite clear what constitutes the "scatter dice", and that the subsequent 2D6 are only rolled on an arrow result of that scatter dice – the 2D6 and arrow dice are not lumped together as a general "scatter dice" combination.

 

The first time scatter dice are mentioned in the BRB is under Blast weapons, were it specifically states that any re-rolls involve all three dice (pg 30).

It does yes, but the three dice combined are not the "scatter dice".

It actually says:

 

"[...]the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6." [bold bit mine]

 

That's clearly drawing a distinction between the two types of dice involved, while not calling them both "scatter dice". In fact in all explanations of the blast weapon rule it's clear that the arrow dice is the "scatter" dice and the 2D6 are just, well, 2D6.

 

The next is under Barrage weapons (pg 32) where it again treats all three dice as a single set.

No it doesn't. The last sentence reads:

 

"if an arrow is shown on the scatter dice"

 

again stating perfectly clearly that only that dice is the "scatter dice".

 

The third place in the BRB is under Mission Specific Rules (pg 95), where its states at first to roll scatter dice as a set, then advises that on anything other than a hit you would then roll 2d6 for distance.

Again no. It says:

 

"[...] and roll the scatter dice. If you roll a hit the model stays where it is, but if an arrow is shown this determines the direction the model scattered in. If a scatter occurs, roll 2D6 [...]"

 

Again this clearly demonstartes that the arrow/hit dice and only that dice is the "scatter dice". The 2D6 are only thrown as a consequence of the result by the scatter dice. There is no inference that all three dice are called scatter dice as a set.

 

 

 

If think trying to say that you re-roll all three dice on Aid Unlooked For is just looking for an advantage that was never there. Besides that it just isn't RAW.

 

Cheers

I