Rerolling Scatter Die vs. Scatter Dice

[Coyote]

Summary:

Many arguments have been made in both directions. The wording is unfortunate, but (as we like to say in Baltimore) "it is what it is."

 

Conclusion:

I suggest that this

is

treated as a grey rule because it is so easily misunderstood. And clearly, no amount of Grammar-Hammer will completely resolve the issue.

 

I offer as evidence the fact that the Baltimore area

GW

stores refer to the dice in the collective, and thus teach players to reroll all of the appropriate dice. Not just the arrow die. While I can now clearly see that this maybe counter to the

RAW

, it is a widely accepted House Rule.

Thanks for all of the input, everyone.

[Isiah]

Well because something is misunderstood doesn't make it grey area – it just makes it misunderstood :lol:.

 

The scatter dice is a clearly defined item of equipment. You re-roll a "scatter dice" (or "the deep strike scatter dice" as Aid Unlooked For calls it) you do just that - you re-roll the thing with the arrows/hit on it.

 

Baltimore can choose to do things another way and as such it becomes a house rule as you say.

 

 

 

To re-roll all three dice would have required wording such as:

 

"[...] so you can re-roll both the deep strike scatter dice and the 2D6 if you wish"

 

or something like that, in a similar way the blast weapon re-roll wording has been written. But Aid Unlooked For doesn't say that so you can't.

 

Cheers

I

[igotsmeakabob!!]

It doesn't say a scatter die/dice, though. It says reroll the deep strike scatter dice.

 

It seems to be a grey area.

[JMcL63]

It doesn't say a scatter die/dice, though. It says reroll the deep strike scatter dice.

 

It seems to be a grey area.

It is, in that there are indeed multiple interpretations more than 1 of which remain equally valid no matter how much textual analysis is applied. :ph34r:

[Legatus]

If someone did not own a rulebook and did not know anyone who owns one then perhaps I ccould forgive that he might interprete the passage from Codex Space Marines as anything other than re-rolling the directional die. For everyone else the issue has conclusively been resolved in this thread.

[angronn]

I think Isiah, Thantoes and others have got it right. Although GW are using dice to refer to only one die, it is clear from the Deep Strike rules that they are refering to only the directional die, BECAUSE rules-wise you only roll the 2D6 after the directional die (whereas I and many others roll them together to save time).

 

Therefore at the time Heroic Intervention comes into play, only one die has been rolled - the scatter die. Simply put, there is no 2D6 to re-roll at the time HI activates, and therefore it is not a grey area.

[jeffersonian000]

And that is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier, Angronn. The only die rolled is the scatter die, and it is only followed by 2d6 if a "hit" was not scored. A re-roll should either occur before rolling for distance or should include the distance dice if speed rolling.

 

SJ

 

*edited for spelling.

[DevianID]

Here is my take. There are 2 thoughts on this subject that I have seen in the thread so far--First is that the reroll scatter dice includes the 2d6, the second is that the reroll scatter dice does not include the 2d6. Obviously we are trying to determine which is the more appropriate action.

 

However, I posit that both end up being the same thing... hear me out.

 

So, assume the ONLY die you reroll is the singular scatter die (dice). The conditions in the flow chart work as such.

 

1: roll scatter die (dice)

1a: hit rolled, unit goes there

1b: scatter rolled, roll 2d6 and move that many inches in the direction indicated, and the unit goes there.

2: determine if the singular scatter die (dice) will be rerolled. If reroll decided, ignore step 1 and go to step 3, if not place unit as indicated in step 1.

3: Roll scatter die (dice) again.

3a: hit rolled, unit goes there

3b: scatter rolled, roll 2d6 and move that many inches in the direction indicated, unit goes there.

 

Basicly, the logic is that the 2d6 rolled in step 1 is based on the fact that a scatter was rolled. If you pick up that scatter die (dice) because you are rerolling the scatter die (dice), then you must ignore the 2d6 distance you rolled, as this distance is a condition to a die (dice) roll that no longer exists. Or, distance is determined after the scatter die (dice) is rolled and determined to be a scatter. If you have a reroll, then you determine if the roll will scatter up to 2 times, thus triggering 2 seperate rolls, one roll each time a scatter is rolled on the scatter die (dice)

 

You could make the counter argument that you dont roll any distance d6 until you determine if you will reroll the scatter die (dice). Thus you would roll the scatter die (dice), see a scatter show up, and then immediately interupt the normal phase of play (which would dictate rolling 2d6 for scatter distance after a scatter direction is resulted) and determine if you will reroll that die (dice).

 

I disagree with the above, as it seems odd to interupt the scatter roll midstep; rolling the scatter die (dice) per the rules, including scatter distance when called for, and then choose to reroll the resulting scatter roll, seems more logical, but thats my opinion.

[Legatus]

You could make the counter argument that you dont roll any distance d6 until you determine if you will reroll the scatter die (dice). Thus you would roll the scatter die (dice), see a scatter show up, and then immediately interupt the normal phase of play (which would dictate rolling 2d6 for scatter distance after a scatter direction is resulted) and determine if you will reroll that die (dice).

 

I disagree with the above, as it seems odd to interupt the scatter roll midstep; rolling the scatter die (dice) per the rules, including scatter distance when called for, and then choose to reroll the resulting scatter roll, seems more logical, but thats my opinion.

I disagree with your interpretation of the flow of actions.

 

The situation is very simple and common in the game. You roll a D6 for scatter. If there is no scatter (success) the unit lands. If there is scatter (fail), then you have to roll 2D6 for scatter distance. Rolling for distance depends on how the roll for scatter turned out.

 

That is exactly like first rolling to hit, then depending on the former result rolling to wound, then depending on the former result rolling saves. What you advocate is that all these rolls are done up to the final outcome, at which point you then decide to use your re-roll for the initial test.

 

E.G. imagine the enemy has an ability to make you re-roll your to-hit rolls

 

you roll to hit (hit) --> you roll to wound (wound) --> enemy rolls saves (fails saves)

 

now the enemy decides to use his ability to make you re-roll your hits.

 

Of course that is not how re-rolls work. You immediately pick up the dice that are to be re-rolled and roll them again, ignoring the first result completely. Thus, if you rolled the "scatter die" and do not like the result, you immediately re-roll that die, without rolling for distance at all. Only if your re-roll is a scatter result you pick up the 2D6 and roll for the scattered distance. Re-rolls are immediate, and the original roll has no bearing, so would not have you roll 2D6 for distance. That is the common and basic game mechanic for re-rolls, and not an odd interrupt. We are simply all used to roll the scatter die and the distance dice all at the same time, when that is not how the rules describe the process.

[DevianID]

I too was thinking about hits and wound when I wrote that. However, can you determine the scatter without rolling scatter distance? With the hits/wound analogy, you can determine the hits without rolling the wounds, but you cant determine the scatter without rolling the scatter distance.

 

My main point is that you do not have to keep the 2d6 rolled on the first roll when rolling to deepstrike. Thus, if you roll a scatter and a distance of 7, you would roll the scatter die (dice) by itself, and if you got a second scatter then you would generate a second 2d6 distance.

 

Your point, I guess, is that you can never roll the distance until you use or dont use the reroll on the single scatter die. Thus, while the rule states that if a direction is rolled you then roll 2d6, you feel the reroll supercedes this step, though, by letting you reroll before the scatter is fully resolved.

 

So its a timing thing between us then I suppose?

[Legatus]

I too was thinking about hits and wound when I wrote that. However, can you determine the scatter without rolling scatter distance? With the hits/wound analogy, you can determine the hits without rolling the wounds, but you cant determine the scatter without rolling the scatter distance.

First you determine whether or not a scatter even occurs, then (if it occurs) you proceed to determine the distance. Just like you first determine whether or not a model hits (or how many times), before you proceed to determine if the hits wound.

 

First step of attacking: Does it hit?

 

Second step of attacking: Does it wound?

 

 

First step of deep strike deployment: Does it scatter?

 

Second step of deep strike deployment: How far does it scatter?

 

You only advance to the second step if the first step leads to such a result. But depending on the result, the process might already end after the first step. The model does not hit? Then it will not proceed to roll for wounds. It hit? Then it proceeds to roll for wounds. The unit does not scatter? Then they will not proceed to roll for scatter distance. They scatter? Then they proceed to roll for distance.

If the first step can be re-rolled, then it will imediately be re-rolled after getting the initial result, before proceeding to the next step.

 

Here are the relevant deep strike rules for comparison:

"(..) roll the scatter dice. If you roll a hit the model stays where it is, but if an arrow is shown this determines the direction the model is scattered in."

[jeffersonian000]

The only mechanic in the rules for re-rolling a scatter is on pg 30 of the BRB:

 

"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit and chooses to do so after firing a blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2d6." (Emphasis is mine)

 

This mechanic has precedence due to all other examples of using scatter dice to determine scatter follow the original scatter rules laid down on pg 30. Whether or not you roll distance with or after the scatter die is cased, the precedence is clear that all 3 dice are re-rolled if you have the option to re-roll a scatter.

 

SJ

 

*edited for spelling

[Legatus]

"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit and chooses to do so after firing a blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2d6."

 

Page 30 discusses the ability to re-roll rolls to hit.

 

To hit with a blast weapon you roll

 

- the scatter dice

 

- 2D6

 

And if a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls to hit, it re-rolls both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

 

the Legion of the Damned ability 'Aid Unlooked For' does not enable them to re-roll "to hit" or "deep strike deployment". It specifically enables them to re-roll the scatter dice. The description on page 30 where re-rolling "to hit" means that both the scatter dice and the 2D6 are rolled again has nothing to do with this.

[F3d3x]

It is not that difficult. You do not need to go looking for any other rules that can possibly support your answers, because it is all contained under the deep strike rules.

 

Step 1: Place model

Step 2: Roll the scatter dice (the one with the arrows and hit on it)

Step 3: if hit model stays where it is. If an arrow is rolled roll 2d6 to see how far they scatter.

 

 

It does not matter what other rules you look at in the book, specifically under deep strike the only time you ever roll the 2d6 is if an arrow is rolled. You can not re roll dice that were never rolled.

[Todosi]

Seems like this is a UK vs US English problem. I have rarely heard dice used as a singular. Generally I hear die for a single six sided cube and dice for more than one.

 

Sort of like:

 

orient vs. orientate

truck vs. lorry

 

etc...

[igotsmeakabob!!]

I live in the US and have never used dice in the singular... but I suppose it just varies.

[nighthawks]

Let's not turn this into a referendum on linguistic variation within the common tongue.

 

also, I think the subject has been settled, based on contextual readings that show that the author (a native Italian, BTW not American nor British, not even a colonist nor a subject to the throne from days gone bye) considers the "scatter dice" to be the singular cube with the arrows. that, plus the stated rules of rolling the scatter before the scatter distance in spite of the often used approach of rolling both together, makes it pretty clear that to reroll the scatter "dice" is to reroll the single "die".

[Coyote]

Agreed. I still contend that this should be treated as a Grey Rule, since it is handled differently in different areas. Thus, it should be included in the items discussed with a tournament-level opponent.

 

I also hold to my desire for tighter, more consistent editing with clear-cut definitions throughout. I swear, if/when GW chooses to do this, they'll really have something special on their hands. I guess I got spoiled by Wizards of the Coast. :devil:

[angronn]

Agreed. I still contend that this should be treated as a Grey Rule, since it is handled differently in different areas. Thus, it should be included in the items discussed with a tournament-level opponent.

 

It's only treated differently because some people get confused between speed-rolling and actually following the rules to the letter. The rules themselves are clear.

[Coyote]

Really? Really? Fascinating. 'Cuz the people that I referred too earlier are Baltimore-area GW employees. Ya know? Where US headquarters is? The nice folks that adjudicate at Baltimore - Games Day & GTs? The fellows that are teaching this in Academy class. I guess you believe they can't read clearly either...

 

Sorry that I lost my temper.

 

I agree with nighthawks. Let's close this and move on.

[Eldilar]

First time read, but to me all of the confusion doesn't solely come from the rulebook, it partially comes from improper rolling to "speed things up". If people were rolling their Scatter die by itself, then taking the re-roll authorized, then rolling the distance dice, this discussion wouldn't happen...Instead people choose to roll the scatter die and the 2D6 for distance at the same time. That works fine, and does save time, but it is NOT how the rules spell out the action, and thus assuming the three dice to be a "set of scatter dice" is based on the faulty assumption that you are supposed to roll them together at all. you aren't. All the rules typing and pasting above makes it abundantly clear that you are not intended to roll the scatter die alongside the 2d6, but to roll the scatter die, and then roll 2d6 if required. If you choose to re-roll your scatter die, that will impact whether the 2d6 is required.

 

And while it seems like it doesn't matter to some, it does. My decision to re-roll or not re-roll can now be based on how far I scattered as well as the direction I scattered, which slightly damages the intent of the rule.

 

If I rolled my scatter die and it faced away from you, I might re-roll to try and stay close. If I already know I am going to roll two 1's, then I won't bother re-rolling, the result is altogether not bad. I shouldn't know that already. Same thing, I shouldn't know its a 12 inch scatter before I decide if I want to re-roll or not, I should just know its a scatter.

 

Now, even if you keep the 2d6 results, its affecting your decision. If you re-roll all three, its even worse, because now you get to negate direction and distance for a different result.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[angronn]

A good description of the way that different interpretations of re-rolling can affect the game.

 

*applauds*