minigun762 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 If you've read any of my posts, you will know that 9 times out of 10, I'm a big fan of multi-purpose units. However I have had many discussions with people who prefer dedicated or specialized units. The typical logic goes something like this: Multi-purpose units have a tool for (almost) all situations but they typically aren't as point-efficient as the dedicated units Dedicated units are focused for (normally) one situation and do it extremely well. However they suffer in any situation outside their focus. So how do you build up your own army? Do you only take dedicated units that each specialize in a particular area? (anti-tank, anti-infantry etc) Do you take an army made entirely out of multi-purpose units to have maximum redundancy? With my own armies, my focus is on a variety of multi-purpose units, with my mounted Flamer/Melta/Power Fist CSMs being the most important example. These units are then supported by a few dedicated squads. What this allows me to do is use my first choice (specialized squads) against a particular target and if they fail/get overwhelmed, to back them up with my multi-purpose units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron-Daemon Forge Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Well you all seen my Iron Warriors tournament list. I like my units to have multi roles & rarely pick thing that are limited to one pure role (say Havocs with Lascannon or Raptor IMO), while the Obliterators a fine exsample of multi role taken on Hordes, tanks & combat. I think out of my army only the Daemon Prince is limited to purely combat. While my 10 man squads are tool out for shooting with Heavy Bolter (in the event I hold a object) also to deal with orks or light armour tanks while they also have a Plasma or Melta Gun to deal with heavy armour tanks/units, then kicking it out in close combat. Like wise my Terminator though arm with combi Plasma are still able to deal with hordes or kick it out in combat. Just the way I alway pick my armies to have multi role units & also I am not a fan of stastic units. IP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Well you know me, most of my units are multi-purpose, units of undivided csm's, oblits, preds w/ TL'ed LC and HB's :D . That's not to say that I don't have some specialized units in my army, I take a squad of brzrkrs sometime, and termicide is very specialized. But my multi-purpose units out # my specialized units 2 or 3 to 1 (never really counted them up). And you would have to say my army as a whole is multi-purpose, jack-of-all-trades, type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Askari Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 I tend to deck my troops out for multiple roles while everything else is more specialized. I usually have 2 or three CSM squads with melta, flamer and power fist and 1 or 2 squads with double plasma. This along with a winged Daemon weapon lord form the core of my force. A squad of 2 oblits and 2 min sized raptor squads with double meltas are used for deepstriking anti tank and heavy armor. A dakka pred for anti light infantry and a Defiler for anti-heavy infantry round out my heavy support while an 8-10 man raptor squad with 2 flamers and a pfist is occasionally included for close combat support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 I usually have 2 or three CSM squads with melta, flamer and power fist and 1 or 2 squads with double plasma. This along with a winged Daemon weapon lord form the core of my force. A squad of 2 oblits I had better go check my army box, I think this man stole my army. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cale Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 Yeah, I usually run double meltas, a powerfist, and an Icon of Glory in my ten-man chaos marine squads in rhinos. I find that they do well enough against infantry to generally not need the flamer, while the melta increases the squad's effectiveness against tanks enormously. That's what I consider a versatile squad, and it's the core of my army. I also play some double-flamer squads, but though they are more strictly anti-infantry, they do alright against tanks they can manage to charge, what with krak grenades and a powerfist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Amarel Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 I've just been shifting my Rhino-mounted CSM squads around, so I can show what I had and why I changed. This was my original (post-feedback) setup: 1 x 10 CSM: Powersword, 2 x Flamer, Icon of Slaanesh. 1 x 10 CSM: Power Fist, 2 x Melta, Chaos Glory. This felt like a good mix to begin with, but it was actually a bit messy. The Flamer unit are great against a horde, but have problems if they hit anything MEQ, or if there is something nasty hidden in a horde mob. While the Meltagun unit has two shots to pop a vehicle and then a Power Fist if they fail, but having to use the PF to break a vehicle, when you're hoping to pop it with a Melta, slows the whole assault down. I've now swapped those units around a bit to: 1 x 10 CSM: Powersword & Combi-Melta, 2 x Meltagun, Icon of Slaanesh. 1 x 10 CSM: Power Fist, 2 x Flamer, Chaos Glory. This cost 10pts more (which I happened to have left, handily) but makes for a far better pair of units. The Flamer unit now have a way to deal with both of the problems outlined above (MEQ & Big Gribbly), while the Meltagun unit have the three shots they need to averagely pop anything and the attacks needed to deal with the CC revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rorschach Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 I usually convert something that in my head looks really cool, but on paper is amazingly ineffective. Then I put it on a table and lose :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted July 18, 2009 Author Share Posted July 18, 2009 I think its a good sign that most of us instantly went to our rank and file CSM as the example for a flexible, multi-purpose unit. But remember this is about your army as a whole too. To Brother Amarel's point, that is what I prefer the Flamer/Melta/Power Fist combo. I feel like it never leaves me lacking any area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 I guess it depends on what you mean. Melta/flamer/PF is still pretty "specialized" in that all of those weapons require very close range so they are all weapons given to a mechanized squad whose job is to quickly close with the enemy, shoot, and then assault. If anything, a more multi-purpose unit would have a heavy weapon or plasma gun as firing either of those would preclude an assault, meaning the unit is also kitted for a stand-off firefight. My point is that I think most chaos players use specialized units, it's just since we all do we considered something like taking 1 anti-tank assault weapon and one anti-horde we are being multi-purpose when in reality we are not deviating from the "drive up to them then shoot then stab" modus operandi around which our entire army is structured. When push comes to shove, the current Chaos list is a hand to hand list so my army is therefore very specialized to get up close fast and kill. DP with wings, rhinoborne squads with assault weapon/PF champs, some berzerkers, and oblits. Point being, all lascannon havocs is not specialization, it's stupidity as they are far far overcosted, a rhino-borne marine squad with assault weapons is specialization, it's a specialized CC squad and it remains a CC squad whether it's melta/flamer or double flamer or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted July 19, 2009 Author Share Posted July 19, 2009 it's just since we all do we considered something like taking 1 anti-tank assault weapon and one anti-horde we are being multi-purpose when in reality we are not deviating from the "drive up to them then shoot then stab" modus operandi around which our entire army is structured. When push comes to shove, the current Chaos list is a hand to hand list Haha I actually laughed at that, because its true. However I'd argue that we're a "close range" army like SoB, where we are at our best within 12" of the enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 I don't think a comparison to SoB's is all that appropriate as SoB's have low strength, toughness, and (relative to us) attacks meaning that they need to try to avoid combat and specifically remain at close weapon range without getting into hand to hand--at least I assume so, I've only played against WH once. Chaos on the other hand generally uses shooting only as a precursor to the decisive assault. No army is completely HtH anyway, one the nastiest nid lists I played had a bunch of shooty fexes (back in 4th ed though), and everyone knows and loves ork lootas. All that notwithstanding, nids and orks are still considered CC lists and so are we. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Asmodius Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 My current list is in a very similar vein to yours minigun. I have 4 CSM squads with fist, flamer and melta. But backed up with berzerkers as a dedicated combat unit and Oblits as a dedicated shooting unit. I think this sort of army works a lot more smoothly than one built of just dedicated units and while i might offend some people i think it would take a lot more tactical skill to use an army consisting of only mixed dedicated units (like the old Eldar list with nothing but aspect warriors). But a list with mainly muli-purpose units seems more effective and easier to play because you dont often run into the problem of have the wrong men in the wrong places (noise marines in front of a land raider or something of that nature). While the SOB's are not nearly as inclined to engage in close combat as we are they dont just fall apart and some units like Seraphim are not always that fun to run into in combat depending on what they're attacking. You're right the stats are not comparable at all but i believe that minigun is more refering to the way in which both of our armies must be played which is up close and personal with the enemy. At my GW, we have a long time SOB player who often does use the decisive assault of repentia to wipe out tough enemy units after a shooting phase or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 decisive assault of repentia to wipe out tough enemy units after a shooting phase or two 0_0 what? am I reading this right , he is keeping repentia alive for 2+turns and he even gets a charge off with it and wins? I see it this way . SoB only work at 12" and they have to use flamers/melta because they dont have any other units that could do anti tank [serafin being better at 3flamers +DG and exorcists being too few to counter everything] or anti horde . chaos doesnt have such problems . like all armies we spam stuff , so for me it looks like this . if I run termicid and oblits most pms/csm will run around with flamers [probablly 3 flamer 1 melta unit] , if am short on anti tank most normal squads end up with melta guns [or even all]. i never mix specials , because for me a single flamer aint good enough anti horde and a single melta sucks as an anti tank weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Askari Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Hmmm, looking at this forum made me feel really bad about my list. It seems half the people have the same list as me.I guess it is impossible to have a relatively strong list and be different with this codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Warrior w/ Servo Arm Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Hmmm, looking at this forum made me feel really bad about my list. It seems half the people have the same list as me.I guess it is impossible to have a relatively strong list and be different with this codex. And thus, my african soldier, you have attained enlightenment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven1 Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Hmmm, looking at this forum made me feel really bad about my list. It seems half the people have the same list as me.I guess it is impossible to have a relatively strong list and be different with this codex. And thus, my african soldier, you have attained enlightenment. Ain't that the truth! I prefer specilialized squads, my list is up on the army lists section rhino and double weapon either double melta or double flamer. actually ia have one combo flamer/melta. Usually im not for a mixed bag, but they are both assault weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walpurgisnacht Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Which means Chaos players must build their lists on the concept of facing a competent opponent that most likely will already be attempting the very same strategem. Ergo, a self-defeating list is the way to play. Fluffwise, I blame Fabius Bile, for his clone trooper experiments on Chaos geneseed MUST have been the reason for all these armies to be the same. And, subsequent clones degenerate in structure and function. Fluke success stories of the nature of "I've got one shot at this....YES!", are not something that will win at tourney's, pick up games, or even friendly ones with any consistence. Sacrifices to the dice gods aside, of course. I find fist with flamer combo looks really good on table and works ok. I like multi-plas deth and more meltas the better. I like bolter marines with HW backup in squads of six to eight unmarked as speed bumps that assaulty folks stop to eat and get caught by my zerks behind the line. I guess I like Specialized units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted July 19, 2009 Author Share Posted July 19, 2009 You're right the stats are not comparable at all but i believe that minigun is more refering to the way in which both of our armies must be played which is up close and personal with the enemy. At my GW, we have a long time SOB player who often does use the decisive assault of repentia to wipe out tough enemy units after a shooting phase or two. That was more the point I was trying to get across yes. Chaos has to be in your face to work. QUOTE (Askari @ Jul 19 2009, 03:25 PM) *Hmmm, looking at this forum made me feel really bad about my list. It seems half the people have the same list as me.I guess it is impossible to have a relatively strong list and be different with this codex. And thus, my african soldier, you have attained enlightenment. Kinda sad huh? The big choice is either Cult Troops or CSMs. Quality vs Quantity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muskie Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 I usually convert something that in my head looks really cool, but on paper is amazingly ineffective. Then I put it on a table and lose :D This is kinda my strategy too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 You're right the stats are not comparable at all but i believe that minigun is more refering to the way in which both of our armies must be played which is up close and personal with the enemy. At my GW, we have a long time SOB player who often does use the decisive assault of repentia to wipe out tough enemy units after a shooting phase or two. That was more the point I was trying to get across yes. Chaos has to be in your face to work. Yes but that was as opposed to my statement that we are a HtH army, doesn't get much more up close than mano a mano. Anyway I think we basically agree and are just arguing semantics here :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted July 20, 2009 Author Share Posted July 20, 2009 You're right the stats are not comparable at all but i believe that minigun is more refering to the way in which both of our armies must be played which is up close and personal with the enemy. At my GW, we have a long time SOB player who often does use the decisive assault of repentia to wipe out tough enemy units after a shooting phase or two. That was more the point I was trying to get across yes. Chaos has to be in your face to work. Yes but that was as opposed to my statement that we are a HtH army, doesn't get much more up close than mano a mano. Anyway I think we basically agree and are just arguing semantics here :P Yeah pretty much :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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