5th Ed. SM for missions

[Andromalius]

Allo all, been a while, took a break from 40k for some time. But 5th edition looks fun and I really like the new 5th edition codicies. That said, I've run into some SM stuff on the cheap so I figured what the hey, back to forty-kay.

 

So I have a few questions:

 

1) Vehicles and Walkers in general. They look more durable now. But do they really play out to be more durable. How about Dreadnoughts?

2) So troops are the only ones that can actually hold an objective now. That means I have to have lots of them right? Or is two or three ok?

3) Is there any reason to use anything other than Drop Pods? Seriously?

4) Flamer and Melta seems to be the way to approach it. Better damage (melta) and Flamers ignore cover (which is everywhere now). Right?

 

Thanks.

[Koremu]

1: Yes

2: I run 2 or 3 - SM have poor Troops selection (CM have much better)

3: I use Rhinos. Pods make your Infantry vulnerable and static on the battlefield.

4: Plasma is good too, against the right foes.

[Giga]

3) Is there any reason to use anything other than Drop Pods? Seriously?

Believe it or not, drop pods aren't really good when used en masse. One drop pod with something killy inside (say, a dreadnought in a pod, or a sternguard squad) is a good way to use it, but an entire drop pod army will be easily beaten by a well-played mech force.

[Andromalius]

Ok, thanks.

 

So some more questions then:

 

Dreadnoughts specifically. Can I run several, like 2 to 4, and that's not over kill in something like 2000 or 2500 points? I'd like to basically just equip for melta/heavyflamer. Considering using drop pods for them exclusively (Master of Forge for the allowance). I thought about going IronClad, but seems pointless since they will no doubt be destroyed after doing their work the turn they arrive. But they are resilient to some things.

 

Marines themselves; I don't like how the troops work out. It's all assault/heavy weapon options. No double assault weapon options. I'd have to use fast attack or an elite or something to achieve a simple marine squad with flamer/melta that can move, shoot, assault. I don't like heavy weapons on infantry at all. I like to move everything as often as possible. So what should I do here? Just go cheap troops like 10 man tactical squads with a flamer and missile and just use the combat squad option to split them into groups with the flamers and groups with the missile launchers so that I can at least get half of the moving, shooting and assaulting and then having the missile squads take a position and just pop kraks here and there? Or should I just use scouts or something instead? Alternatively fully kitted tactical squads with rhinos (flamer, missile, serg with fist, etc) as 10 man squads? Scouts seem about as resilient as marines, if not more so, with their great cover saves (exception being in combat, they fall like guardsmen). They're cheaper so I could get more. Though I'm not as keen on their models. But they do have nice tactical rules for missions. Any advice on which troop selections to make here since their only purpose in the list honestly is to score. Otherwise, I'd much rather have fun with dreadnoughts and fast attack options as I favor them the most (fast, armored, mobile heavy weapon platforms).

 

I've considered putting assault marines (without jetpacks) in drop pods for the dual assault weapon spec. But it seems silly since I can get the same thing as a scoring troop option with one less special weapon, so scrapped it unless there's something I'm missing. Fast attack wise, I'm looking at land speeders. I like the idea of land speeders with melta or typhoon launchers (two missile launchers essentially). Those things deep striking for anti-armor roles. Unless I missed some rules, they can deep strike and fire at things right? If so, that helps mitigate cover angles and stuff to an extent for quickly laying hurt on armor. Plus, for their cost, taking 2 or 3 seems like a quick easy way to get that sort of firepower that drops in or can simply be deployed normally, move and still fire long enough range to do the same job (before being gunned down by frigg'n bolters or something).

 

Also, how is a drop pod force so vulnerable to a mech force? Is it because they cannot assault to avoid the shooting phase? Seems to me that a Rhino is about as resilient as your opponent lacks weapons to down them or at least stop them. Making them little better than a drop pod beyond putting a barrier somewhere specific and just foot slogging/running the troop that bought it. Any explanation here as to why drop pods are so vulnerable? Is it due to them coming in randomly so easier to take apart one by one? Considered Tigurius to get a re-roll on reserves to get more in faster. Ideas?

 

Thanks.

[Giga]

DREADNOUGHTS: When using a dreadnought in a drop pod, you need to keep one thing in mind; it's going to die shortly after arriving on the battlefield. Any half-intelligent opponent will focus his firepower to take your dread out before it gets a chance to assault. This is it's purpose however; to draw enemy fire while the rest of your army advances towards the enemy lines. Hence, you need an army that profits from closing in on the enemy, and hence profits from the dread's sacrifice. Otherwise, you're better off having footslogging dreads.

 

 

 

TROOPS: codex marines have weak troop section, to be honest. I personally believe scouts suck (in short, they're horribly overpriced for what they're worth), and never take them. Tactical marines can do only one thing really well; survive assault, which may or may not be such a great thing, depending on situation. As for the rest of it, you just gotha accept your troops are a support unit, and use them accordingly. Being support means they also need to be supported in turn. Pedro's attack aura helps a lot here. The best idea, as far as I'm concerned, is to run with two tactical squads + something else that's also scoring/troops.

 

I usually run two tactical squads, one with power fist, missile launcher, flamer, and rhino, the other with razorback, flamer, plasma cannon, and chainsword+bolt pistol sergeant. I have varying options for my 3rd scoring unit. If I'm rolling my bike captain/khan on bike, I get a full bike squad with multimelta attack bike, two meltaguns, and a power fist as my 3rd troop choice. If I'm going Pedro, I take a 9 men sternguard squad with power fist. In every other list I get another tactical squad instead. Not too happy about being forced to spend 600+ points on tacticals, but that's what you gotha do when you play 1850 pts battles.

 

 

 

 

FAST ATTACK: speeders and attack bikes are great. 3 speeders with mm/hf, at 210 pts, is a great deal. 3 attack bikes with multimeltas cost 150 pts, which, depending on your style, can be even better. Assault marines are a nice choice, depending on situation. If supported well, they can really kick arse. On their own, they're not very good. I usually run my assault marines at 10 men, with power fist and two flamers, total 235 pts. Assault marines deep striking is also a pretty bad idea, I think. They don't do anything for a turn, basically, and will likely just get shot to death in the opponent's shooting phase.

 

 

 

 

ON THE SUBJECT OF DROP POD ARMIES VS MECH ARMIES: the thing is, any smart mech player who's facing a drop pod army will just keep his army in transports. He will deploy in the way that will best take the brunt of your initial drop pod attack, by either utilizing cover to maximum effect, giving you a sacrificial unit to draw the worst of your shooting, or simply using terrain or his own vehicles to hide most of his army from your line of sight. If he gets the first turn, he'll likely pop smoke on all of his vehicles, giving his entire or near entire army a 4+ cover save.

 

So then you come down in drop pods. In order to start shooting at his squads, you have to pop his transports first. This may or may not be easy, depending on transport type. Either way, you're expending your limited firepower (as it's only half of the drop pods arriving on the first turn) to destroy his transport vehicles (usually cheap stuff, think rhinos), while his real killer units are safe. Once your first turn of shooting is over, you got a bunch of transportless units in his deployment zone, with the rest of your army either far away or arriving from reserve. At this point the mech guy can shoot/assault you at his leisure. Your guys are likely going to be out of cover, and very close to his assault specialists (which you may or may not have damaged in your shooting phase).

 

Conversely, the opponent might also decide to be real mean to you, and just keep his entire army in reserve, at which point he's guaranteed to get to attack you first, while you're forced to land half of your drop pods onto an empty table.

 

I won't even get into the possibility of droppods scattering far off their marks. I've had my ironclad scatter out of melta/heavy flamer range so many times it's not even funny.

[Andromalius]

Great information, thanks.

 

It makes sense about the Drop Pods against someone who's fully mechanized. Against someone not fully mechanized, more partially if that, seems that Drop Pods can certainly give a good impact. I think I was just romantic with the idea of dropping a few Dreads with double heavy flamers, drop the pod, place the dread (base size) plus the reach of the templates to just torch units camped up in cover. With the drop pod assault rule, if I took 5 drop pods, I could put 3 dreads with dual heavy flamers on the table turn one to burn things up, followed by assault marines and marines in rhinos (or on foot) to follow up while those dreads are in their face (and drop pods blocking LOS and granting cover and other things as well) for a big foot print of armor in their face. Here in my local shop, no one plays 100% mechanized, so I'm not too worried about it (and I don't really mind if someone meta games me off the table with a fully mechanized thing, we play casual fun anyways). I do get the point though that it's very possible to meta me off that way, so cool to know.

 

I really like the idea of a strike force that just tries to hit hard first with close range assault weapons (or plasma), followed by assault troops. Seeing as how cover makes the shooting phase very ineffective if you don't have a LOT of guns (and basically nullifies a lot of worth of ranged AP weapons), I'll probably make a more assault oriented force with flamers and meltas for close range action. Plus, I hate the old 3rd edition `line 'em up' approach. Dieing in combat is more fun.

 

So here's a quick thought without really taking points into account yet, let's see what folk think:

 

HQ - Forge Master // Tigurius

Elite - Dread (Flamer/Melta - or dual heavy flamers) in a Pod

Elite - Dread (Flamer/Melta - or dual heavy flamers) in a Pod

Elite - Dread (Flamer/Melta - or dual heavy flamers) in a Pod

Troop - Tac Squad, Flamer, Missile (optional pod)

Troop - Tac Squad, Flamer, Missile (optional pod)

Troop - Tac Squad, Flamer, Missile (optional pod)

Fast - Assault Squad, Plasma x 2, Powerfist

Fast - Ven Squad, Serg with Relic Blade, 4x power weapons in unit (jump packs)

Fast - Land Speeder, multi-melta heavy flamer x 2

Heavy - Dread (flamer/melta - or dual heavy flamers) in a Pod

 

The idea being that with 7 total pods as access, I could put 4 dreadnoughts in their face turn one. Follow up with the tacs to drop where they need to be for scoring; pod gives instant cover for them and blocks LOS/assaults. Speeders do work on vehicles. Dreads too if required (if using melta setup). The flamer setup for orcs/tyranids/eldar.

 

The troops & HQ seems boring to me. But I really dig the Dreads, Speeders and Assault marines.

 

Any advice?

 

Thanks.

[Giga]

Well, one thing I'd change is tigurius + master of the forge. Tigurius is 230 pts. Master of the forge is 100 pts without upgrades. That's 330 pts spent on two models without invulnerable save.

 

If, however, you really want to keep tigurius, here's an idea;

 

Get a hefty sternguard squad in a drop pod, with lots of combimeltas, and put tigurius with them. You drop down on the first turn, shoot something up, then if they survive enemy retaliation, you can use a combination of Null Zone, Gate of Infinity, and Avenger to really mess up your opponent by teleporting all around the field and slaughtering with shooting madness. Force Dome also helps keep Tigurius and the sternies alive.

 

Also, you want extra armor on your dreads. Trust me, it's REALLY important, because it allows the dread to move, run, and assault, even when it can't shoot. This is BIG, trust me, since it makes your dread a constant threat that has to be destroyed/immobilized to stop it.

 

You also want locator beacons on some of the drop pods. Locator beacons allow you to have a coherent game plan + they work well in conjunction with tactics like the gate of infinity+sternguard I mentioned above.

 

Also, the vanguard veterans aren't really worth it. They're only 5 guys that cost way too much, IMO. At 3+ save and arriving from deep strike, they're overly fragile for their price.

 

You might also wanna consider power fists on some of your tacticals. In 5th ed, most independent characters die from these hidden power fists, and it allows the squad to wound or even take out massive monstrosities such as tyranid carnifexes and daemon princes.

[Andromalius]

Hrm, more good thoughts.

 

So looking at the Vennies, with Locator Beacons on the Pods (4 of them perhaps), they'd have a relatively ok chance to come in via jump pack deepstrike, not scatter within 6" of the pod, and then can assault 6" more for a nice 12" threat range basically from each pod. But they are still expensive. I considered a little 6 man squad, with only 2 power weapons since on the charge, the serg and the 2 guys will be throwing done like 4 attacks each and could do some good hurt on a tough armored unit. Then again, I could just deep strike terminators for the same cost basically.

 

My only reason for the Master of Forge is so that I can take more than 3 Dreadnoughts. I have 4 and want to use them (they're my favorite model/fluff piece). So seems I'm locked on that HQ choice (too bad that Forge Father character doesn't grant the ability to take Dreads as heavies... he's really cool). Is that conversion beam worth it? It looks great until you think about it being a blast template that scatters. With that STR and range, I'd think to blast a vehicle with it, but then, you'd miss the thing even with BS6 sometimes (scattering on average an inch, sure, but we all roll higher than that sometimes of course, and scattering more than an inch or two will easily put the center of the marker off any vehicle and become pointless). He does have a nice harness, so lots of good shooty goodness so he could be used with something to simply deliver some punch. But he's kind of balls in combat for what he is. And he can't take a command squad or anything can he? I didn't see the option. I don't want to take both Tigurius and the Forge guy--I was just deciding between the two. Tigurius is really cool, but I'd have to give up my 4th Dread if I don't take the Master of Forge, so leaning away from him (it's too bad too, that reroll from reserves is great). But the Master of Forge with his natural 2+ save, can hang out with a cover save and blast with the conversion beam for 120 points. And I get a nice increased cover save on something of my choice and my dreadnought access. Seems pricey though for that one-shot and how easy it will be to kill him basically (though I don't see why someone would truly waste the effort on him shooting if my dreads/assaultmarines/tacs etc are always in front). And of course, his one good shot can be null'd by a 4+ cover save... given by my own units (bleh). Ok, lol, maybe I'll just suck it up and go down to 3 dreadnoughts as my elites and avoid the Master of Forge. I feel like my HQ needs to be worth taking for the monstrous points, so maybe a guy with a real retinue so that he can't be easily picked off in combat and just tool up a combat unit to follow up the 3 dreads in pods or something?

 

That Forgefather guy also seems really cool. All my flamers and meltas are twinlinked with this guy. That's just awesome. Fits right in with my dreadnought configurations (melta/flamer). That would make my initial strike more accurate. And any follow up with those weapons as well. Worth while though? He's not cheap, he's pretty beefy though, great for combat. But he can't take a retinue, so in combat, he's just as vulnerable as anyone else (though he has that nice 3+ inv save). This guy really screams like "take me!" with a dreadnought/assault army with all kinds of twinlinked flamer/melta tech and mastercrafted hammers everywhere. Any thoughts on this guy?

 

Thanks.

[Andromalius]

Ugh. Why can't hunter killer missiles be an option for all dreadnoughts. :)

 

I keep going back to the IronClad idea. IronClad with two Heavy Flamers, both fists, and two Hunter Killers. Expensive. But actually a brute at 13 with EA and smokes. If using cover, and smokes, he can be resilient. And A13 puts him off the curve of the 4+ to glance/pen, hurting those S8 weapons out there that are a plenty. And if in cover, half those shots don't do squat pretty much. So really, a load of them menacing forward could be a huge absorption sponge of that class of firepower (since the rest will not ding A13). The HK's just do work on vehicles. The HF's for burninating of course. And shed a tear for whatever it assaults unless it's a MC with higher Init. 6 of those on the table would be so fun. Probably not a very good idea from a competitive point of view, but man, would be fun and look nice.

 

I'm starting to wonder if I should bother with drop pods or not. I love the idea of knowing that I will get to use my shooting phase before getting torched in response. Guaranteed landing for it. But then again, I could save the points and just get some walking cheap dreads and go quantity over quality.

 

So advice: quantity of dreads on foot, or quality of dreads in pods? Consider 4 to 6 dreads. What would be best considering all opponent types, mixed armies of units and armor.

 

Thanks.

[Coyote]

So advice: quantity of dreads on foot, or quality of dreads in pods? Consider 4 to 6 dreads. What would be best considering all opponent types, mixed armies of units and armor.

For background, I also play heavy DPs and lots of Dreads. Some feedback:

 

I think you need to reconsider your approach to Dreads. I love 'em. I basically use a few builds:

1. Anti-Armor - Standard - Multi-Melta + Hvy. Flamer
   
2. Anti-Squad - Ironclad - Hurricane Bolter+Hvy. Flamer + Assault Launchers
   
3. Long-Range - Standard - Lascannon + Missile Launcher
   
4. Anti-Transport - Ironclad - 2xHKs + Hvy. Flamer + Melta + ALs
   

That's it. Ironclads, like any other Dread, need to have roles. These are the roles in which I've seen them prove themselves. The Anti-Squad build is awesome for dropping Marines, Necrons, etc. It's not quite as good against hordes, but it'll get the job done. The Anti-Transport has the ability to seriously mess with a Mechanized column. It's ability to drop 2-3 anti-armor shots on the turn it lands is flat insane. The Flamer is a bonus in case it makes it into the next turn to assault.

 

A few words on Dreads and their pods:

• I think of my DPs as terrain. Nothing more. They are there to block the LOS of enemy units on the Dread. And if they get popped, then they've created an area where the Dread can run into to get a 4+ cover save. Ironclads benefit here from their Move Through Cover by being able to move and assault on the next turn through the wreckage of their DP.
  
• Some recent discussion has occurred as to whether or not you can draw LOS through a 'live' DP. While I view this as unsporting, no one argues the fact that it would give a 4+ cover save if allowed. So DPs can go a long way in covering your flank for a turn.
  
• I might put a Deathwind or Locator into one pod. But usually not. If I do, Deathwind goes with Anti-Squad Ironclads. Locators go with one of the MM+HF Vanilla Dreads. Doing this increases the threat-level of the DP, which is a good thing. It pulls anti-vehicle shooting away from the Dread because the enemy if forced to deal with the coming threat.
  
• You do NOT have to deploy Dread with their attendant DPs. This means that you can deploy some or all normally and later run them, using the Deep Striking empty pods as terrain later in the game. This technique may allow you to build a more flexible list by varying your deployment instead of the content.
  • Drop Pods work wonders in contesting objectives in late-game. Again, this can pull fire away from the rest of your troops.
    

  [*]If you're running 3+ Dreads, I'd consider a long-range Dread be in the mix. 1 Lascannon+Missle Dread may do the trick. Cheap, mobile, & fluffy. I prefer 2x Anti-Armor, 1x Anti-Squad, & 1x Long-Range when possible.

  [*]If you field a Servitor-Meat Shield unit, they can make for a serious distraction when they join up with the MotF and threaten repairs on the Dreads. They're not good for much, but people tend to ignore them until it's too late for exactly that reason.

As for lists, I think you're off to a good start. You just need to assign role and focus to your Dreads. Not doing so means that you're losing some of the advantage that you gain with Drop Pods.

 

Oh, and don't underestimate the ability of an Ironclad to lock up an infantry squad. Their AV 13 means that they can hang in there for as long as it takes with most.

[Andromalius]

Thank you very much for the information.

 

Here's a quick idea again:

 

HQ - Master of Forge

Elite - Dread, heavy flamer, multi-melta, extra armor, drop pod

Elite - Dread, heavy flamer, multi-melta, extra armor, drop pod

Elite - Dread, heavy flamer, multi-melta, extra armor, drop pod

Heavy - Dread, heavy flamer, multi-melta, extra armor, drop pod

Heavy - Dread, twinlinked autocannon (1), twinlinked autocannon (2) (walking, but purchase drop pod)

Heavy - Dread, twinlinked autocannon (1), twinlinked autocannon (2) (walking, but purchase drop pod)

Fast - LandSpeeder, multi-melta, heavy flamer

Fast - LandSpeeder, multi-melta, heavy flamer

Fast - LandSpeeder, multi-melta, heavy flamer

Troop - Tactical Squad x 10, flamer, missile launcher, serg with meltabomb

Troop - Tactical Squad x 10, flamer, missile launcher, serg with meltabomb

Troop - Tactical Squad x 10, flamer, missile launcher, serg with meltabomb

Troop - Tactical Squad x 10, meltagun, serg with power fist & combi-melta, drop pod (lets me round up to drop 4 dreads turn one)

Troop - Tactical Squad x 10, meltagun, serg with power fist & combi-melta, Rhino, Extra Armor

Troop - Tactical Squad x 10, meltagun, serg with power fist & combi-melta, Rhino, Extra Armor

 

For 2500 points.

 

4 dreads with anti-armor, and anti-infantry that drop turn one. 7 pods total. 3 of which can be used as simply terrain altering devices, or put a model or unit where I might need it depending on mission. Staying mobile, took rhinos. Doubled up on meltas via the serg. They'll only get one shot anyways, so the combi-melta is better than nothing (i'm not sitting still for a single missile shot). 60 marines for scoring. The master has a flamer, plasma and fist for cheap. If anything, he can absorb damage, or simply help as a second wave assault. But getting a 3+ cover save and all the dreads is of course why he's there. Rhino mounted tacs for objectives and counter of course. The three missile squads are mainly for scoring and threat for turn one so that opponent has to consider where to deploy if a stray rocket drops a transport, etc, and for targeting MC's if on the table. The two walking doubled up auto-cannon dreads are for anti-transport pretty much, and anti-skimmer with 48" range on 4 shots. Can mow down infantry if nothing better (too bad can't retain a heavy flamer doing it or buy HK's). Though I'm not sure about the Autocannon approach. Glances really just don't do enough. Maybe go back to walking multi-melta and heavy flamer setup and just walk, or go IronClads with 2x heavy flamers and 2x HK's.

 

Anything look like a bad idea for general mission play against all types with mixed bag of units/armor?

 

Thanks.