Saves

[dragon950]

Was in a local tournament and was playing an ork and chaos in a 2v2 match. The ork player had his hq charge up the middle and try to charge us. After me and my friend hit and wounded him he was taking his saves a different way than what we read in the rule book. His boss had a 2+ armor save while the boys and pain boy had a 4+. 2 of his boys had power claws and the others hyad choppas.

 

He was splitting up his saves and then giving out wounds one per each model until they died. Tried looking up the rules in the book but that didn't clear up my confusion, any help on clearing up how this is done would be nice.

 

Beat this team, then another ork/space marine team, then lost to eldar/bugs.

[Spacefrisian]

You might wanna smack him with the BRB if he is doing it differently than the book discibes.

 

I had the same feeling yesterday at a tournament when a guy claimed i didn't get a cover save cause he could see my tank (more than half hidden behind 2 covers and 2 rows of his spacemarines) I won that tourney though (but with Dark Eldar).

[liquidbiue]

IIRC, he would take all the saves and distribute one to every model. So all the least valuable guys would probably get a save first, and a chance he might risk going for the 2+ on the boss instead of the 4+ on the boys. Then if there were enough he would be forced to allocate to the pain boy and boys with power claws.

 

And an example to better clarify. If he had 5 boys and one has a power claw and the rest are generic and then that unit takes 7 wounds, he would first give one wound to everyone, then the other two on to another two models.

[Grey Mage]

It depends on how many saves he has to make... each model MUST be assigned one wound before any model can be assigned another... and each model must have two wounds before one can be assigned a third. Got it?

 

Then if there are ANY differences between the models wargear or statlines they must be rolled for seperately. So if each of his Nobz was unique hed has to roll each nobz save seperately.

 

The exception is the Warboss- its an Independant Character and so you have to declare wich attacks are going at him before you roll, and all of those saves must be made against his armor save. He still gets the Feel No Pain from the painboy, as does the rest of the squad...

 

The Pain Boy is an unique member of the Nobz squad and so his attacks come from the "pool" of wounds done to the Nobz squad, but his armor saves are unique to himself.

 

If he has two or more nobz that were identical hed roll all the wound assigned to them together, and hed have to kill of whole models first- wich is why highly customizable squads like nobz, wolf gaurd, and even Grey Hunters can be highly effective in reducing your casualties.

[Forseti]

By "One per each model until they died" do you mean something like this? Say a 5man unit, 2 powerklaw, 3 choppas, takes 6 wounds, he adds 1 to each model and kills off 1 choppa, so now each of his models has only 1 wound? If so, that's cheating.

 

You can't have multiple models of exact same type at -wounds, need to take off same models til they die, the old TS were so pissed when this rule change came about.

[LPetersson]

You'll want to turn to page 26 of the BRB which describes how this is handled.

 

Let's say a 5 man unit has 1 powerklaw, 1 choppa, 1 burner amd 2 somethingorother and it suffers 10 wounds, then the Powerklaw, choppa and burner each takes 2 saves and could theoretically end up with one wound each. the 2 somethingorothers takes 4 saves and if it sustains 2 or more wounds a model is removed.

[Forseti]

"Once you have determined the number of unsaved wounds suffered by a group of identical multiple-wound models, you must remove whole models as casualties where possible. Wounds may not be "spread around" to avoid removing models".

 

Wounds are pooled by model types, not individual models, its possible to have a burner with 1 wound and a choppa with 1, but not 2 choppas with 1 wound each.

 

Edit: And i just reread the last sentence lol.

[Valerian]

Most likely what the Ork player was doing was legitimate. In the future, don't hesitate to ask if there is something going on that you do not understand. Grey Mage has explained it, but I will go into a little more detail. Other than Space Wolves, I also have an Ork army, and manipulating the Nobz weapons and wargear is an extremely common practice in order to maximize effectiveness of the unit.

 

Here is how it is done:

 

1x Nob with Slugga, Power Klaw and Waagh! Banna

1x Nob with Slugga and Power Klaw

1x Nob with Slugga, Big Choppa and Boss Pole

1x Nob with Slugga and Big Choppa

1x Nob with Slugga and Choppa

1x Painboy with Dok's Tools and Urty Syringe

1x Warboss with whatever

 

 

Each Nob has 2 wounds and the Warboss has 3 (or maybe 4, but it doesn't matter), and each model is unique. When allocating wounding hits, each model must take one hit (Starting with the cheapest, of course) before any can be allocated a second. Thus the unit would have to receive at least 8 wounding hits at once for the Nob with a Slugga and Choppa to even have a chance of dying. Considering the he has 'Eavy Armour, Feel No Pain, and likely also a Cybork Body, the likelihood of him taking both of those wounds is pretty low.

 

Another advantage to this system is that if a single model fails more saves from wounding hits than it actually has in wounds, the extras are wasted and do not carry over to other models in the unit.

 

 

As far as Space Wolves are concerned, the same thing can be done in our Wolf Guard Bodyguard, however it is slightly less effective since they only have 1 wound apiece.

 

I hope this helps,

 

Valerian

[Grey Mage]

Though runic charms help Ill note. Valerian here has shown you the real reasons why people do this... and why its so effective.

 

Its probly the biggest reason I hear about people complaining about nobz bikerz.

[Wolf Guard Nostromo]

Its probly the biggest reason I hear about people complaining about nobz bikerz.

 

Ain't that the truth...

 

As Valerian/Grey Mage both say, we can do it a little bit with runic charms and I get more banter from opponents for that than anything else. I suppose its mainly because there really aren't that many units with massively varied armament choices anymore, at least not to the extent there used to be.

[Grey Mage]

and the fact that most chaos players wont use their TDA like that doesnt help.... but really, most armies have atleast one unit that can pull this trick-

 

Tau have Suits

SWs- WG.

SMs- Command Squads, Vangaurd, Sterngaurd.

DA- Deathwing, Veterans

BT- I think SwordBrethren can... but not to as great an extent.

BA- VAS, Command Squads.

SoB- Any inqisitor, and to some extent celestians.

DH- Inquisitors again.

Nidz- Warriors.

Orks- Nobz of any kind.

IG- Command Squads... though meh.

Chaos- Chosen

 

So that leaves... necrons and chaos daemons, unless Im missing something from their codices... and the two eldar armies.

[Wolf Guard Nostromo]

and the fact that most chaos players wont use their TDA like that doesnt help.... but really, most armies have atleast one unit that can pull this trick-

 

Tau have Suits

SWs- WG.

SMs- Command Squads, Vangaurd, Sterngaurd.

DA- Deathwing, Veterans

BT- I think SwordBrethren can... but not to as great an extent.

BA- VAS, Command Squads.

SoB- Any inqisitor, and to some extent celestians.

DH- Inquisitors again.

Nidz- Warriors.

Orks- Nobz of any kind.

IG- Command Squads... though meh.

Chaos- Chosen

 

So that leaves... necrons and chaos daemons, unless Im missing something from their codices... and the two eldar armies.

Wow, that does seem like alot. I think its the combination of wound allocation and another 'beneficial' rule that does it for nobz bikers and Wolfguard though that adds to the effect (i.e. feel no pain and turbo boost on the bikers, and the runic charm re-rolls on wolfguard).

 

My experience with chaos is similiar... I just hope we keep as many options as they get (or more :rolleyes: ) for our wolfguard come October.

[dragon950]

Thats how I read it in the rulebook, but when we tried to tell the ork player that he said it was that way. All of his guys died to mass firepower so I didn't really care. Same thing happened the next game, which led me to believe that they haven't been playing the game very long.

[Grey Mage]

And that could be... sometimes you get newbies who dont act like theyre green. Just make sure if theres any question you check the rulebook, and then everyone can learn, or relearn.

[Roguemarine]

GM - Daemons can do it with the blood crushers really well, i think they can have 5-6 in a unit each with a different gift or something, and one of them is a skulltaker

[Grey Mage]

GM - Daemons can do it with the blood crushers really well, i think they can have 5-6 in a unit each with a different gift or something, and one of them is a skulltaker

*Brings forth an ancient tome covered in purity seals and lays it upon the table with a soft cracking sound*

 

BloodCrushers of Khorne. There may be 1-8 models, one of whom may be a skulltaker and gain rending, another of whom may have an icon to preserve the lives of other daemons, and a third may be a musician to rouse the hearts of the unbelievers in the toughest of fights.

 

There be no other options.

 

So it can be done to an extent... but no more or less than a tactical squad. Since it costs as much as another bloodcrusher to do it... you wont see it often, but I suppose its a shot.

[Roguemarine]

hmmm, will have to crack open the book and see what ican come up with. I could have sworn there was a way to get 5 different models...i wonder if it is putting heralds with them

[Grey Mage]

Each herald would be a different model *most likely* so that would work... but then your using an HQ choice for two heralds.... wich IMHO isnt that point efficient.

 

I thought perhaps flamers/horrors of tzeentch... but now they are seperate units, along with screamers. *shrugs*

 

Its ok though... variety is good in a game like this, very good indeed.

[Ikken]

yup sounds like what you ran into was not a unit of boyz but a unit of nobz with a warboss in mega armor , or worse still , the great and powerful profit of the WAAAAGH! ghazzy himself . , probably not ghazzy though or he would have been putting the wounds on him and not the cheap models

 

if he had kitted out his nobz with multiple war gear on diff models which is pretty much a must do , he would allocate the wounds per model ,then roll saves for each model . orks are one of the few armies where this makes a big difference because most other armies don't have a big blob of 2 wound models .