Brother Captain Alaric Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Lately, i've been reading up on the Primarchs, before, during and after the heresy. In particular, the Primarch(s?) of the Alpha Legion caught my glance. It has been mentioned that Alpharius had a twin brother of sorts, named Omegon. The two were greatly similar, and were described as "One soul in two bodies". But, no great information has been passed on the fate of the forgotten brother. So my speculation, did Omegon stay loyal to the Emperor due to some sense of honor his brother lacked? Or did he side with his brother and bring ruin to the Imperium? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 You obviously haven't read Legion. If you want to get the full story read that otherwise SPOILER AHEAD Omegon and Alpharius are twins, they get approached by a mysterious cabal and told that if Horus wins, he will repent and destroy Chaos and humanity, if the Emp wins the Imperium will rot for some thousands of years then Chaos will reign supreme. Their response is unknown, but right after the meeting they destroy the Imperial army ships in orbit and Alpharius kills the Imperial general he was operating with. Point is, nobody really knows Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2055308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Alaric Posted July 21, 2009 Author Share Posted July 21, 2009 I'm reading the Space Wolf Omnibus at the moment, but i've been meaning to get back to the HH books afterward. I'll read Legion for the full story, but I'm a sucker for spoilers. Thanks for clearing things up. If the Cabal was right, things certainly are grim for the Imperium, perhaps Horus should've won after all. We may find out, if GW ever progresses the damn story that is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2055882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Alaric Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 Yeah ill check it out haha, just make sure to self promote more or I'll forget. XD Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2057053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 ++SPOILER AHEAD++ There was a rumour going around quite a while ago that the follow up to Legion (not another book in itself, but an explanation as to what course the Alpha Legion takes) will end up with one twin fighting the other to the death - presumably, this will illustrate more than anything else the utterly devisive nature of the heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2057265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jipimus Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 There was a rumour going around quite a while ago that the follow up to Legion (not another book in itself, but an explanation as to what course the Alpha Legion takes) will end up with one twin fighting the other to the death - presumably, this will illustrate more than anything else the utterly devisive nature of the heresy. Or is it an illusion to fool everyone...? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2057267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trel Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 One twin fighting the other would make sense. Think about it: following the Heresy and Dorn's, er, the Emperor's victory, the Alphas' mission to sabotage the Imperium for the sake of the Galaxy has obviously failed. According to the Cabal, the Galaxy is now damned to whither for ten thousand years and then be consumed by Chaos. The Alpha Twins are, if anything, realists. What would a realist do in this situation? Try to continue to sabotage the Imperium in the vain hope that they can stave off the predations of Chaos? Throw in your lot with Chaos and at least join the winning side? Alternately, the knowledge that the mission has failed and their Legion is now excommunicate traitoris on the way to an inexorable apocalypse would probably cause a significant sense of nihilism to set in. With all the power of a Legion and nothing to fight for or focus them, an already decentralized Legion would probably become bored and fractious. Some would probably continue fighting the good fight, some would just turn to piracy, some would try to figure out some other way to sabotage Chaos. The Twins, I could imagine would have a similar crisis of purpose and, over the course of deciding the fate and direction of the Legion, is it not possible that such a conversation could come to blows and one killing the other? Of course, knowing that this is the Alpha Legion, it's probably misinformation meant to trick twice-over the misinformed. The Alpha Legion is too meta for the 40k universe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2057355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 The Alpha Legion is too meta for the 40k universe. Which is what makes them so interesting, we aren't just told they are mysterious they really are mysterious, not even the normally omniscient players know what they are up to. Also why I hope they just leave it without a sequel, I'm not a fan of the whole anti-hero sacrifice the Imperium for the galaxy thing as it seems awfully contrived, but I do like the idea of nobody knowing their real motives, fits them perfectly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2057806 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 it probably would make sense for one twin to fight the other but then again, when did the Alpha Legion ever do something sensible? :eek part of what makes them so interesting is the fact that they're so mysterious :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2060116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
I AM THE AWESOME Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Personally, I don't see it happening. Alpharius and Omegon are the same Primarch. Do you see Sanguinius struggling with parts of himself? Sanguinius: Ah what a lovely day. Wings: flap flap flap Sanguinius: Aaah! Where are you taking me? Wings: flap flap *stop* Sanguinius: AAAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH! NO. :rolleyes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2060138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firenze Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Personally, I don't see it happening. Alpharius and Omegon are the same Primarch. Do you see Sanguinius struggling with parts of himself? Sanguinius: Ah what a lovely day. Wings: flap flap flap Sanguinius: Aaah! Where are you taking me? Wings: flap flap *stop* Sanguinius: AAAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH! NO. :) Brilliant! :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2060216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dammeron Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 The Alpha Legion Index Astartes article suggests that at least one of the brothers is dead, killed in single combat with Roboute Guilliman, but considering the legion's penchant for deceit, even this is hard to verify (there is a suggestion in the same article that records on this matter may have been fabricated). The book Legion has thrown into doubt the Alpha Legion's true intentions and thrown into enormous conjecture precisely where their ultimate loyalties lie. They COULD potentially be attempting to - SPOILER ALERT- fulfil a particular prophecy of the Cabal by causing Chaos to burn itself out, which quitre tragically requires Chaos to "win" to a certain degree (read Legion for more detail). Or they could have become completely corrupted by Chaos over the centuries and now serve it whole heartedly, or there could be splinter groups of the Legion all of which have different agendas, or there could be the illusion of this guided beneath a hidden, over-arching hand (or hands)...truly, alot of presumptions have been surgically peeled away (or forcibly ripped) from the 40K universe. Following Fallen Angels, similar things could also be said of the Dark Angels legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2060475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solid Zaku Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Actually, I think the point of the Cabal's 'vision' in Legion was to prove that even the great pointy-ears divinations can be wrong. Albeit, this has been proven just about every time the Imperium manages to defeat the Eldar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2060864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Subtle Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 thats what i love about the alpha legion, even when the information is fact, you never still know if its what the alpha legion 'want' you to think you know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2060867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 The book Legion has thrown into doubt the Alpha Legion's true intentions and thrown into enormous conjecture precisely where their ultimate loyalties lie. They COULD potentially be attempting to - SPOILER ALERT- fulfil a particular prophecy of the Cabal by causing Chaos to burn itself out, which quitre tragically requires Chaos to "win" to a certain degree (read Legion for more detail). Do you not think that might be an allusion to the flaws of the Primarchs? All the Traitor Primarchs fell prey to their inner flaws, wouldn't Alpharius be the same? As the eternal trickster, do you not think he would have been unable to think that he could have been tricked himself? Also, bear in mind that at this point the Imperium is a much a threat to the Eldar dreams of getting their empire back as Chaos is. Could Alpharius and Omegon have been tricked into taking part in the Heresy? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2060888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 The Alpha Legion Index Astartes article suggests that at least one of the brothers is dead, killed in single combat with Roboute Guilliman, but considering the legion's penchant for deceit, even this is hard to verify (there is a suggestion in the same article that records on this matter may have been fabricated). How does the Alpha Legion corrupt Ultramarine records of this event? Since Guilliman himself would have made the report that he killed the Alpha Legion's Primarch, how could they have deceived him as to the result of this combat? One a more meta note, why do the Ultramarines themselves doubt the veracity of their own records? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2061641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonsword Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Ten thousand years is a long time, and if other documentary evidence contradicts it, they may see a reason to consider whether or not their sources were wrong. I don't know why they would - it's their own records - but the Ultramarines presumably know more about their archival practices than we do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2061642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child-of-the-Emperor Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 How does the Alpha Legion corrupt Ultramarine records of this event? Since Guilliman himself would have made the report that he killed the Alpha Legion's Primarch, how could they have deceived him as to the result of this combat? One a more meta note, why do the Ultramarines themselves doubt the veracity of their own records? They could have changed the documents or contents of the documents (By using Spies/Operatives)? But i thought that Guilliman himself actually doubted that he had killed Alpharius. Also according to the account didnt Guilliman kill 'Alpharius' in one hit? I very much doubt Guilliman could have killed another Primarch in a single hit! The Cabal's vision could have been utterly wrong and its plausable that it even could have been corrupted by Tzeentch or something. The Future in 40k is never definate, even Tzeentch cannot truley know the future: Tzeentch's gaze encompasses all of the past and all of the present. The future, however, is a different matter. There are infinite futures, fragmented into uncountable threads, ever changing, ever twisting.... Not even the Great Sorcerer can hold all of the threads in his mighty intellect. And if Tzeentch cant know the future with the uttermost certainty, the Cabal certainly cant. Also even though we are led to believe that Alpharius actually goes along with what the Cabal wanted of them, I personally highly doubt they did. Firstly in an age where all humans are highly xenophobic and are taught to ignore the lies of the Alien i find it hard to believe that a Primarch would actually totally believe an Alien Prophecy. Aside from this they had 2 years before the Heresy began to actually think about and plan what they were going to do, i like the idea that they actually fought Horus' forces from within, and personally i would to see that it was actually them who lowered the shields on Horus' flagship, allowing the Emperor to crush the Traitor :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2062603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raulmichile Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Also even though we are led to believe that Alpharius actually goes along with what the Cabal wanted of them, I personally highly doubt they did. Firstly in an age where all humans are highly xenophobic and are taught to ignore the lies of the Alien i find it hard to believe that a Primarch would actually totally believe an Alien Prophecy. Aside from this they had 2 years before the Heresy began to actually think about and plan what they were going to do, i like the idea that they actually fought Horus' forces from within, and personally i would to see that it was actually them who lowered the shields on Horus' flagship, allowing the Emperor to crush the Traitor :tu: ...and see the Emperor pulped almost to death, thus cuasi-fulfilling the Cabal's prophecy. I agree the Alpha Legion could have been deceived, but this remains to be proved in future books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2062689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Which is what makes them so interesting, we aren't just told they are mysterious they really are mysterious, not even the normally omniscient players know what they are up to. . Mostly because Legion is often treated like the sole source for Alpha Legion fluff. Then again, AL fluff is scattered and a bit hard to come by. How does the Alpha Legion corrupt Ultramarine records of this event? Since Guilliman himself would have made the report that he killed the Alpha Legion's Primarch, how could they have deceived him as to the result of this combat? One a more meta note, why do the Ultramarines themselves doubt the veracity of their own records? The document in question was not in possession of the Ultramarines in the first place, nor was it written by Guilliman. It was a data log which was unearthed near the planet where both Legions clashed. Before that, no one knew it existed. Also according to the account didnt Guilliman kill 'Alpharius' in one hit? I very much doubt Guilliman could have killed another Primarch in a single hit! The same account describes Alpharius leading a counter attack, felling Ultramarines left and right with ease and halting their advance before he faced Guilliman. The Cabal's vision could have been utterly wrong and its plausable that it even could have been corrupted by Tzeentch or something. I cannot imagine that they weren't aware of that possibility after fighting Chaos for aeons. i would to see that it was actually them who lowered the shields on Horus' flagship, allowing the Emperor to crush the Traitor "Maloghurst, if I cannot get to the Emperor through the walls of his Palace-fortress then I shall tempt him to come to me. Shut down all the shields!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2062694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 The document in question was not in possession of the Ultramarines in the first place, nor was it written by Guilliman. It was a data log which was unearthed near the planet where both Legions clashed. Before that, no one knew it existed. Obviously I'm missing something. Guilliman survived the combat with Alpharius. So where's the original record of the combat? Are we to believe that the original battle reports were lost during the Heresy? Is there a record of Guilliman's battlebarge being destroyed? Backing up its logs to Macragge should have been SOP. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2062813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Obviously I'm missing something. Not really, the IA article doesn't tell us what the Ultramarines know of these events, what they knew back then or even what was believed of Alpharius' fate before the discovery of the data log. So where's the original record of the combat? Are we to believe that the original battle reports were lost during the Heresy? In a way, yes. Imperial history is often full gaps. We as readers are often supposed to take that for granted. Now, that may not really be a satisfying answer now that the HH novels provide a "definite" account of past events, but it was some editions back (specially in 3rd Edition) when most fluff was either provided by biased in-universe reports or directly referring to myths and legends. There was no (reliable) omniscient narrator, no higher authority in terms of veracity, and thus no real need to explain how and when history was lost or turned into myths. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2063085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dammeron Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 The book Legion has thrown into doubt the Alpha Legion's true intentions and thrown into enormous conjecture precisely where their ultimate loyalties lie. They COULD potentially be attempting to - SPOILER ALERT- fulfil a particular prophecy of the Cabal by causing Chaos to burn itself out, which quitre tragically requires Chaos to "win" to a certain degree (read Legion for more detail). Do you not think that might be an allusion to the flaws of the Primarchs? All the Traitor Primarchs fell prey to their inner flaws, wouldn't Alpharius be the same? As the eternal trickster, do you not think he would have been unable to think that he could have been tricked himself? Also, bear in mind that at this point the Imperium is a much a threat to the Eldar dreams of getting their empire back as Chaos is. Could Alpharius and Omegon have been tricked into taking part in the Heresy? Absolutely; this is yet another interpretation of events within Legion; it is entirely possible that the Cabal themselves are the unwitting pawns of some deliberate deception or are merely misguided, which makes the Alpha Legion, assuming that they are still acting with regards to the Cabal's prophecies, doubly so. Personally, I would like to see it come about that Alpharius and Omegon become at odds with one another over the ultimate goals of their legion. It would certainly make for some very interesting follow ups to Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2063220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KP13 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 As has been noted, and yet often left out by the "Alpharius is Dead" crowd, the Index Astartes article in question ends with the events themselves called into question (the biggest point being the Ultramarines themselves have no record of the event taking place!) AND the Inquisitor who brought the information to light being declared a renegade (possibly in league with the Alpha Legion!) and going missing! On top of that, no one knows what is 'canon' anymore. So, everything and nothing we know may be true... How like the Alpha Legion in the end! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173839-was-omegon-a-traitor/#findComment-2063297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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