Witch Hunters VS Dark Angels

[GlauG]

So, my GF collects Witch Hunters, but is just getting into the actual gaming side. We played a game yesterday, and while it was very close towards the end (at one point she had 3 units on the board to my one) she didn't win, and she mainly commentedd that flamers and bolters had a hard time killing Bikes (Toughness 5) and Terminators (because of the 2+ save), which bothered her all game long. I'm not going to bother posting her list here, since she's abandoned it and willing to try out anything to replace it, but for reference, my usual Dark Angels;

 

Belial (Special Character Terminator Captain)

Sammael (Flying Land Raider)

3X Deathwing Terminator squads with 1 pair of Lightening Claws and usually 1 Assault Cannon per squad

2X Ravenwing Bike Squadrons with Meltas/Flamers and Attack Bikes with Multimeltas

Apothecaries in one squad of each of the above.

 

which clocks in around 1500pts depending on exactly what weapons/wargear get taken. Dark Angels Apothecaries allow you to ignore one wound per phase provided it doesn't cause instant death or ignore armour and is within 6" of them, which is to say almost everything but a multi-melta or Power Weapon'd Veteran Sister in a SoB-centric army.

 

I've been musing over this and have been putting together a few armies based directly around the idea of hurting my usual one, but I've not got especially far, these should be mutually compatible though;

 

Flying Nun of Doom Tag Team (2 Canonesses with Jump Packs, Inferno Pistols, Cloaks of St Aspira, Blessed Blades/Blessed Blade + Eviscerator, making a single Spirit-of-the-Martyr-on-demand unit).

Running 2 allied Elite DH Inquisitors with Mystics to allow the pot-shots at Deep Striking Terminators from Battle Sister Squads, Exorcists, or maybe even Plasma-Servitors

Using Melta-Guns and Heavy Flamers or twin Meltas in Battle Sister squads

More Exorcists!

 

Any of the more experienced Inquisition veterans here have better ideas as to how to deal with my army and ones like it?

[Ozybonza]

I play doublewing and besides the obvious exorcists, I've always had trouble against Mechanised armies.

 

Several SoB squads hiding in Rhinos until they can all get out and rapid fire + divine guidance at the same time, to the same squad.

 

The key to defeating doublewing is bringing numbers to bear against isolated units. SoB squads in rhinos are perfect for this.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Ahem... the units no one thinks about!

 

Namely: Arco-flagellants, Death Cult Assassins, Eversors.

 

All of which have power weapons :wub:

 

You can also look at things like Penitent Engines, Exorcists, power-weapon spamming Inquisitorial Retinues, particularly Witch Hunter retinues, and massed use of faith points turning bolters into AP1 shots on a 6. You can also induct guardsmen and go with the probability approach of massive shots meaning eventually they'll fail a save. Even lasguns can bring down terminators when you're firing an entire platoon worth at one unit!

[GlauG]

Thanks for the suggestions so far. I'm sorry to say I'd actually advised her away from Death-Cult Assassins, they'll be getting a test run soon though along with various Inquisitor builds. Also, for what it's worth last game most of her Faith got burned on SotM and the one which increases initiative, due to being stuck in Assaults she couldn't really avoid.

As for inducted guardsmen, she was hoping to keep her WH army more SoB centric (or at least all-female), but needs must, I guess? Though my track record involves my Bikers and Terminators both surviving 50+ lasgun shots (horrible new orders system) each with no casualties thanks to the Dark Angels apothecary rules...

 

A few people have suggested highly mechanised lists for opposing Doublewing, but in practice I seem to take out Troop Transports before they get a chance to do much due to the abundance of Melta and Assault Cannon fire compared to the actual size of my army, at least for mechanised Marines and CSM. :/ Heck, 16 Storm Bolter shots has a half-decent chance of destroying a Rhino. Guard and SoB might be different due to slightly higher numbers?

[Inquisitor Fox]

Chimeras make a huge difference versus Rhinos due to the front armor of 12. Try to take that out with a bolter, I dare ya :P The sides are definately vulnerable, but not the front.

 

Pure Sisters armies are definately effective, and the acts of faith can be brutal when used in proper combination. Personally I go for a mixed Witch Hunters army and have found it effective and for me, fun. It opens up things like a Land Raider as a transport for my Inquisitor Lady, inducted Imperial Guard platoons, particularly heavy weapons squads now with the new Guard Codex, Leman Russ Battle Tank(s), Exorcists, fun Ecclesiarchy toys, basically whatever fun things I feel like using that day. I think the best advice really is while a pure Sisters army is fun, I wouldn't overlook any of my options. In the end, an Inquisitor uses whatever means are necessary to accomplish their mission. You also can induct Daemon Hunter units (really just Grey Knights often) as needed... I've had success with a unit of 5 GK Termies w/ a psycannon and thunderhammer on the sarg, then a second psycannon. As she tries out the other units she'll find what's fun and what works for her.

 

In terms of DCA's.. run them as a "squad" of 2 or 3 models. Yes they're each a character, but they must be targetted individually shootingwise, and in terms of stats are one of the more powerful options WH's have. WS5, S4, I5, 2 wounds each, 4 attacks on the charge all of which are power weapon attacks.. that's 12 attacks with power weapons from 3 of them, and you get up to 3 per slot choice. Yes, they're each a kill point, I know.. but in any objective based mission they're lots of fun.

 

Depending on how picky your group is.. I've seen a couple lines of pewter female 'guardsmen' from other companies.. so if you don't care about the GW only stuff that's an option. Unfortunately they don't have a lot of good GW made female models. You could though possibly convert a bunch of Escher gangers into guardsmen pretty darn easily, albeit a little more expensively. You also could convert fantasy models... perhaps plastic female wood elves with cloaks and lasguns? They look like 'rangers' to me! This allows her to do things like end up with a 50 model 'squad' all armied with lasguns, then use the 'first rank, fire! second rank, fire!' order on the whole thing when they're in rapid fire range.. that's 150 shots.. 75 hits, 25 wounds on T4, 12 or 13 wounds on T5. That's a lot of forced saves with only (heh) a roughly 280 point investment. Or you can take those same 280 points, and have 6 scoring units instead of 2. That's not even considering the number of lascannons, missile launchers, and autocannons you can have in weapon teams. The options are definately worth considering.

 

With pure Sisters, I personally use a heavy flamer/meltagun combo. Take the Book of St. Lucius always. Seraphim she may want to consider... try a unit with a VSS with plasma pistol/power weapon, then two sisters with TL inferno pistols. That's 2 TL S8 2+ shots and one S7 2+ shot at a range of 6 inches. Should be 2 or 3 dead termies. Bulk the squad up and play hit and run

 

Hopefully somewhere in there was some good advice!

[Vash]

I would basically do what I did in 4th edition rules. Spam flamers, and SoB are good at doing just that. Sister superiors can have one shot flamers, be it a combi flamer or my favorite braziers, they will do the job.

Divine guidance will take down most things in the game, specially Space Marines in power armour or terminator armour. And with the new 5th edition rules flamers now shoot at the same time, making their flamers even more dangerous than before.

 

I would against a terimnator squad have the following:

 

10 battle sisters in a rhino (smoke and extra armour)

1 upgraded to VSS with braziers and power weapon

2 with flamers

This adds up to 220 pts. Thats roughly what 5 terminators cost or 10 power armoured space marines.

 

Now it all depends on how the opponent is standing, and how well the flamers can cover the enemy unit. But usually you can cover about 75% of an unit. Given that we have three flamers that will be 11-12 hits vs terminators, 22-23 hits vis power armoured space marines.

Now we will add the bolter shots at rapid fire range which is around 9 hits. Against the 5 terminators you will have 20-21 hits in total and vs the marines 31-32 hits.

Divine guidance on this would, by unlogical statistics (as my other calculations have been so far too), give about 3 rending hits vs terminators, and 5 vs the marines.

Then of course there will be additional wounds that needs to be saved.

 

If you/she want to boost up the numbers of special weapons and can afford the points, one could make a Dominion squad.

9 Battle sisters + a Canoness.

2 flamers and 2 meltaguns on the battle sisters

1 Brazier and power weapon on the VSS, and the Canoness with brazier and power weapon/blessed weapon.

 

This unit costs around 305 pts. But it has its upside with alot of special weapons, and can hunt tanks too. The two meltaguns will be really good vs terminators too. But if one feels lucky, one could go for even more flamers.

Heck include a priest to this unit with a brazier and there will be a BBQ party.

 

Anyhow, from my experiance with WH/SoB is that acts of faith is the key to victory. Spamming flamers is one key point (depending on play style that is).

Where I played with my SoB, not many really wanted to play vs them towards the end (SM players that is). The massive amount of flamers I had and number of power armours was to much for them to handle. And I do agree with the old SM codex. SM didnt have much tricks to pull off back then.

[GlauG]

That's a big meaty post full of advice, thankyou. :D Right, in order...

 

With my Doublewing I rarely end up attacking any vehicle from the front, since between the bike and LS's mobility and Deep Striking I usually have a rear or side shot. However that's a good point to note about Chimeras. Maybe buy one for a cheap Inquisitor and let some Sisters borrow it... ;)

 

I'm trying to persuade my GF to give Inquisitors a shot, though in practice this might only go as far as a cheap Elite one to unlock DCAs as an option (or the aforementioned Chimera...). However, as she puts it, it seems somewhat self-defeating to take GKTs for the sake of defeating my Deathwing when she wants specifically to try and beat them on the terms of the Witch Hunters in particular. :)

 

When I persuaded her away from DCAs I guess I'd forgotten their statline! They do seem like the optimal choice for assaulting MEQs. Also, isn't it possible in 5E to form them into a unit of 3 models for the sake of assaults, or is this not worth it (as they could be targeted individually)?

 

I've already repurposed my Escher gangers into Inquisition Stormtroopers and the Juves into acolytes. :) Which is slightly more fitting when you consider that she has a pair of Mad Donna Yulanti models to use as Inquisitors. ;) As it is I'm experimenting with Dark Eldar plastics and press-moulds for sorta mass-producing a large number of female "Guardsmen" or even Sisters since I have about 30 or 40 of the DE plastics lying around. There's someone else on B&C doing the same thing for their Sisters army which gives me hope (even if I do feel annoyed that they beat me to the punch on going "public" with them. ;)). I'll give the Wood elves some thought, do you have any idea how the parts breakdown goes with the sprue, male/female torso wise? The only thing about taking Guard over Sisters units would be that I think she wants to try the fairly Faith-intensive Double Flying Nun combo...

 

That's actually the weapon setup she had on both squads for our first game, but they didn't get much chance to use either unfortunately as they got broken from shooting and assaulted respectively on the first turn... It's returned on the list I'm proposing she use for two of the 3 squads. For 1000pts, we're toying with;

 

Canoness

Inferno Pistol, Blessed Weapon (Master-Crafted), Jump Pack, Cloak of Saint Aspira, Book of Saint Lucius, Frag Grenades

 

Canoness

Inferno Pistol, Eviscerator, Cloak of Saint Aspira, Jump Pack, Mantle of Saint Ophelia, Auspex (a local Guard player uses Marbo. Always.)

 

 

Battle Sisters Squad, Bolter (x7); Heavy Flamer (x1); Meltagun (x1) Veteran Sister Superior Bolt Pistol + CC Weapon

 

Battle Sisters Squad, Bolter (x7); Heavy Flamer (x1); Meltagun (x1) Veteran Sister Superior Bolt Pistol + CC Weapon

 

Battle Sisters Squad, Bolter (x7); Meltagun (x2); Krak Grenades, Veteran Sister Superior Bolt Pistol + CC Weapon, Krak Grenades, mounted in Rhino to be tank hunters, if the Rhino gets blown up and they manage to fail their task with the meltaguns, they can use the Kraks.

 

Exorcist

Immolator

 

I'm seriously toying with dropping the Krak grenades and maybe Immolator to take a possibly shooty DH inquisitor with Mystics, but the expense of the Canonesses doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room.

 

Besides that, we are seriously looking at Seraphim as we already own about 10 of 'em and they aren't cheap to buy, money-wise. :P If we look at it as a build specifically for fighting the 1000pt iteration of my Doublewing, is it worth dropping one of the Battle Sisters squads for Seraphim so they can take the fight straight to my bikes or Terminators?

 

 

Vash - As much as I hate to boil it down like this, the gist of your post is "spam flamers", right? ;) I'll keep it in mind if the melta+HF combo doesn't work out for her.

 

Thanks for the helpful advice so far!

[Inquisitor Fox]

Alright, lets address the remaining questions one at a time :P

 

I'm trying to persuade my GF to give Inquisitors a shot, though in practice this might only go as far as a cheap Elite one to unlock DCAs as an option (or the aforementioned Chimera...). However, as she puts it, it seems somewhat self-defeating to take GKTs for the sake of defeating my Deathwing when she wants specifically to try and beat them on the terms of the Witch Hunters in particular. :)

It is important to note that WH Inquisitors can go close combat, particularly due to the presence of Crusaders as a Warrior option, and 10 point power weapons which fit well on Acolytes, or Mancatchers. Add Chiurgeons to keep your Inq alive and it's remarkably effective.

 

I understand her point about the GKTs.. I figured I'd put out all the options as all their weapons count as power weapons :) That and psycannons rock. Always a potential further expansion for her though.

 

When I persuaded her away from DCAs I guess I'd forgotten their statline! They do seem like the optimal choice for assaulting MEQs. Also, isn't it possible in 5E to form them into a unit of 3 models for the sake of assaults, or is this not worth it (as they could be targeted individually)?

It's possible maybe for other characters, I don't use them that often, however the rules for the DCA's specifically forbid them from joining units or boarding transports so it doesn't matter either way :) You're required to keep them seperate.

 

Now it's important to note even with their statline you're only able to count on dropping I'd say two to four models of about Space Marine stats. They work best for small units of elite troops... against a full Tactical squad they'd be hosed. Thankfully with Deathwing, all you have are small units which they should be able to get through!

 

I'll give the Wood elves some thought, do you have any idea how the parts breakdown goes with the sprue, male/female torso wise? The only thing about taking Guard over Sisters units would be that I think she wants to try the fairly Faith-intensive Double Flying Nun combo...

No idea on the plastic distribution :( I'm a Bretonnian player, the most I notice is they're a bunch of things with bows that I tend to run over in short order if they let me...

 

I'm seriously toying with dropping the Krak grenades and maybe Immolator to take a possibly shooty DH inquisitor with Mystics, but the expense of the Canonesses doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room.

 

Besides that, we are seriously looking at Seraphim as we already own about 10 of 'em and they aren't cheap to buy, money-wise. :P If we look at it as a build specifically for fighting the 1000pt iteration of my Doublewing, is it worth dropping one of the Battle Sisters squads for Seraphim so they can take the fight straight to my bikes or Terminators?

I would actually drop one of the Cannoness's, drop the Kraks, drop the Immolator.

 

What is this foolishness you ask? Allow me to explain. The Immolator is a fiercesome piece of hardware feared by horde armies everywhere. It is incredibly effective at zooming forward and burnanating the entire countryside. However, we are talking about Deathwing here... your entire army is a 3+ or better armor save, which means they ignore the effectiveness of the heavy flamers with their armor saves. Your bikes are nearly as mobile, your terminators will tear the Immolator apart, assuming the Immolator actually even gets to shoot any. None of her squads fit in it as a transport due to limited capacity. Don't get me wrong, I love them and need to get some myself, I just think if you're trying to get her a list against yours they're the wrong tool for the job.

 

Now, with the points saved from the Immolator and the Cannoness and the Kraks, I would buy Seraphim, put Books of St Lucius (BoSL) on EVERY Veteran Sister Superior and Character that can take them, then give each of your VSS's a power weapon instead of a close combat weapon. Yes, she doesn't WANT to be in melee.. however as you noted the last time she ended up there if she wanted to or not. Might as well get some power weapon wounds that also bypass your Apothecary to boot! It's not that expensive of an upgrade when you look at it, and every terminator killed is worth 3 or 4 sisters! The reason for the BoSL on everything is it only has a 6" range, so as soon as your units move around it defeats the point of a flying nun for her to try and keep everything in the command radius. The book makes things Stubborn as opposed to Fearless, which helps the Sisters in pretty much every capacity. It is one of the most undercosted marvels in the game, IMO. I expect it to go away or be point adjusted in a Codex revision one of these years, but until then take advantage of it!

 

Seraphim vs the Cannoness. You have one less Faith Points, it's true, but you get a lot more wound dealing and taking capacity, the entire squad comes with Kraks for free, and you can explore that plasma pistol/inferno pistols route I talked about. To be honest, Seraphim are my favorite unit in all of 40k, and I know Number 6 on this forum is a big fan as well :)

 

Auspex might be wasted on the Cannoness, even against Marbo. You get a single shooting attack against him if your Auspex can detect the Infiltrate, but she only has a 6" gun. Speaking of which that would be another piece of wargear you could drop at 1000 points to save a bit. Her two-handed melee weapon is just as effective against vehicles and she gets multiple attacks as opposed to one shot, all the pistol is doing is giving her a ranged anti-tank that matches her charge range.

 

DH Inquisitor could be useful, could only have 1 (as you can only ally in 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 1 FA, 2 Troops). Goes back to the GKT argument :) Similarly Guardsmen are useful but at this point level, she has a very valid argument. Sisters aren\'t really a horde army, but compared to Deathwing she might as well take advantage of her superior power armored numbers.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Edit: Fixed number of Faith Point difference between Seraphim and Cannoness. Also I should mention the possibility of adding a Priest (who doesn't deny usage of Faith!) to unlock Penitent Engines and/or Arco-flagellants, both of which are also fierce melee units, albeit a little crazy.

[GlauG]

Regarding the Immolator, it's largely kept in for sentimental value, as it's the first SoB unit we picked up (for her, at least. I used to play SoB in the dark ages of 2E at one point). However, more to the point, we tested the Double-flying-doomnun combo today in a 1000pt game against my (similar but not identical) "Fallen" Chaos army, rolling Annihilation. Those two Canonesses actually killed over their combined points cost by rampaging through 2 squads of Terminator Champions in CC, including one squad with the Mark of Tzeench(!), though this is honestly what they were built for in my mind, so I'm /mostly/ unsurprised. The game ended a draw, but a lot of that was bad luck on her part, neither of us could hit with anything that had "melta" in the name (her Inferno pistols accounted for 1/3 of the Terminator deaths though, which is reason enough to want to keep them in). She also tried leaving things in reserve, but unfortunately this left her Exorcist a Turn-1 casualty due to lack of other targets...

 

Unfortunately, dropping the Mantle of Ophelia, Krak grenades and Immolator is still something like 20pts off a squad of Seraphim, so I'm not sure how else to shoehorn those into 1000pts. Dropping the Inferno Pistol on the Canonesses leaves me just able to give the pair of them a Bolt pistol and then give a Seraphim squad either one pair of Inferno pistols or a pair of hand flamers...

[ArmouredWing]

Looking at the revised list the one thing I'd advise is gearing the sisters squads with either meltaguns OR going for the flamer/hvy flamer loadout and personally for the bike heavy list I'd be inclined to go flamer. The reasoning behind this is down to maximising the number of hits against a squad and then going divine guidance and the best way has got to be through using templates. Meltaguns will pretty much ensure a couple of kills but that's 2 shots which have got to hit first and if your melta toting sisters are as bad with their aim as mine are there'll be some wasted shots flying around. The other thing to also consider is that those 2 meltashots can be stacked on a single mini which means to kill 2 you'll possibly need 3 or more AP1 hits and this is where DG comes into the frame.

 

The other piece of advise would be to consider retributers over seraphim. Heavy bolters & even multi meltas could provide some hard hitting long ranged heavy support which could cause problems for biker squads.

 

Sisters are not an easy prospect for a new player, throne knows I didn't win a game for a good number of months when I started playing them, but when the turn around comes it makes it all worth the while.

[Inquisitor Fox]

1000 points is really a tough level to get in a list with actual options and multiple units.

 

All things considered though, she obviously has the models to up the points total to say, 1250 or something... this gets her a few more units to try out and find what works for her. If you use that 1000 point list as a base, then 1250 is simply adding your Seraphim for her. That's another thing to consider as well.

 

Either way it sounds like she's on the right track if she's consistantly getting draws.. a draw is right next door to a win, so with enough practice and getting to know her army sounds like she'll do fine :D

 

Edit: I love my Retributors! 4 heavy bolters plus normal chicks with bolters is a LOT of fun for Divine Guidance. They tend to get an entire avenue of the board that no one wants to walk through, so with good deployment they do quite well. More importantly, if you have a squad of 6, say VSS w/ bolter, BoSL, Sister upgraded to Imagifier, then 4 Sisters w/ Heavy Bolter... you can take that Immolator and make it their transport option, thus giving you 2 heavy choices for the same heavy slot. Quite efficient!

[ArmouredWing]

1000 points is really a tough level to get in a list with actual options and multiple units.

 

All things considered though, she obviously has the models to up the points total to say, 1250 or something... this gets her a few more units to try out and find what works for her. If you use that 1000 point list as a base, then 1250 is simply adding your Seraphim for her. That's another thing to consider as well.

 

Either way it sounds like she's on the right track if she's consistantly getting draws.. a draw is right next door to a win, so with enough practice and getting to know her army sounds like she'll do fine :D

 

Edit: I love my Retributors! 4 heavy bolters plus normal chicks with bolters is a LOT of fun for Divine Guidance. They tend to get an entire avenue of the board that no one wants to walk through, so with good deployment they do quite well. More importantly, if you have a squad of 6, say VSS w/ bolter, BoSL, Sister upgraded to Imagifier, then 4 Sisters w/ Heavy Bolter... you can take that Immolator and make it their transport option, thus giving you 2 heavy choices for the same heavy slot. Quite efficient!

The other thing to remember is that Rets should be used with a minimum of 6 bodies if you've maxed out on the vet and hvy weapons. That extra standard sister does make all of the difference when the squad starts taking wounds as it enables you to take a casualty without affecting the squad performance (i.e. losing a heavy weapon or losing the ability to use faith through the vet). Ideally though you need to look at 7 if you want the unit to stand a decent chance of using DG.

[GlauG]

I got a chance to test my Doublewing against SoB as part of a 6-player game yesterday. Divine Guidance is horrible. ;) I made the mistake of DS'ing Belial's retinue (including out Allied GM Grand Master from another player) within 18" of almost the entire army, so they got Rapid-fire DG'd down to my Apothecary, and each character on a single wound! However, with some PAGK backup they killed the entire army in close combat in revenge. Literally, 1000pts of WH, including a tooled-up Canoness and Inquisitor, went down in a round of Assault after a round of shooting, thanks to some poor SotM rolls in particular... However, they basically killed or held up enough of our scoring units that the overall game ended in a draw. :/

 

In summary? I'll be pushing my GF to try more Divine Guidance next time :) I'm now trying to gather up enough stuff for her to try Planetstrike at the weekend with at my local GW...

[Inquisitor Fox]

Really the sweet spot range for the entire Witch Hunters army is rapid fire range. It's a tricky thing, because like you've noticed the shooting aspect is incredibly sweet, the close combat aspect not so much. You can even see this in the Sisters statline, where they are all BS4, but mostly WS3. Therefore the best way I have found by personal experience and reading others battle reports, is the use of transports and terrain to apply a great deal of force and numbers on a single weak spot of the opponents army, utterly annihilating it in a single round of shooting, while keeping your forces mostly out of counter-assault range.

 

Divine Guidance really does wonders, especially as you can chose to use it AFTER hits have been rolled, but BEFORE wounds. If you've found you just scored like 12 hits on a single squad.. that would be the time to pop Divine Guidance as you've a better chance of getting those 6's to wound with a greater 'dice pool.' This is also why many people use Divine Guidance with flamer templates... those generate a very large number of hits, and therefore more chances for the AP1 from Divine Guidance to work.

 

A Sisters army is all about applied force to a single point, as opposed to a massive wave of horde. You guys definately sound like you're on the right track though, and I'm sure with some more games and experience she'll be starting to crank out the wins!