best special weapon?

[baoh]

hello im a newbie (obviously) and i was wondering;

 

1. whats the best out of the plasma gun, melta gun, and flamer? (like tactically)

 

2. out of these, whether it would be different to question 1, which special weapon is best for boarding actions?

 

aaaaaaaaaannnndddd finally

 

3. which special weapon is best as a combi weapon?

 

thanks for your help

[Koremu]

hello im a newbie (obviously) and i was wondering;

 

1. whats the best out of the plasma gun, melta gun, and flamer? (like tactically)

 

Depends on the situation. Flamers are the obvious choice vs. dug in Infantry, Meltaguns for close range anti-tank and killing TEQ.

 

Plasma Guns are the most flexible, able to kill Light-Medium vehicles, MEQ and TEQ with ease, but missing out on the dedicated effectiveness of the Melta and Flamer options. It's also a fantastic MC killer en masse, and critically it's the only special weapon that has good synergy with Heavy Weapons, so if you plan to make a lot of use of the Heavy Weapon from a Tactical Squad, the Plasma Gun is the Special Weapon of choice.

 

2. out of these, whether it would be different to question 1, which special weapon is best for boarding actions?

 

Flamer. Boarding actions tend to be short ranged, involve hard cover and are mostly against Infantry. Furthermore, the narrow confines of a spacecraft lend themselves to the advantage of Template weapons as they tend to cause Infantry to bunch up. The occasional Meltagun for taking down Dreadnoughts and blasting open bulkheads would probably be a good idea too.

 

aaaaaaaaaannnndddd finally

 

3. which special weapon is best as a combi weapon?

 

thanks for your help

They all have their uses. Personally I prefer the Flamer and Melta versions because the weapon is Assault, but a Combi-Plasma for use from the top hatch of a Rhino or when exiting a transport works wonders. Especially when used into the rear armour of a Leman Russ.

[baoh]

cheers koremu!! in depth and to the point, with a hint of extra information chucked in!

 

thanks again! :)

[Koremu]

You're welcome :)

 

Questions like this should really be down in the Tactica Astartes forum (bottom of the list) if you have any more to ask :(

[baoh]

ah ok sorry! i will post any questions like this in that section in the future :)

[Spleenex]

I'd largely echo what Koremu said. There is no unequivocal 'best' special. It totally depends on your play style and your overall army composition, among other things. As far as combi-weapons go, however, combi-flamers make the most sense to me.

 

The combi-melta is a one shot weapon, and if you miss that's 10 points down the drain. The combi plasma gets (potentially) another shot, but runs the risk of frying your power-fisted sergeant. It is also not an assault weapon. The combi-flamer allows you to assault, effectively cannot miss and won't kill the wielder. Further, it has been my experience that a Tac Marine unit will typically only have one chance per game to use a flamer, so the one shot aspect is less damaging.

 

My typical Tac squad setup is 10 men with a heavy bolter, plasma gun and power fist and combi-flamer on the sarge. Usually works quite well and is flexible enough to deal with most situations and foes. Hope that helps.

[Ryjak]

Most people end up rolling with a flamer or meltagun in their Tactical Squads, though... usually because the Tac Squad is designed to get close to the enemy. However, the plasmagun's strength is that it's equally happy hanging back and shooting, or getting up close and shooting. This is a pretty good (but expensive) Tactical Squad utilizing the Plasmagun.

 

10-man Tactical Squad

Lascannon

Plasmagun

Vet Sergeant with Powerfist and Combi-flamer

Razorback

 

This squad will normally Combat Squad, with one team getting the Vet, and the other getting the Lascannon. The plasmagun can switch-hit between the two, depending on the opponent. Against MCs or a transport-heavy list, you'd probably want the plasmagun rolling with the Lascannon. If you anticipate needing more punch up-close, stick it with the the Vet in the Razorback.

[Grey Mage]

Plasmagun is good in that its fired exactly like a bolter, but gives you a good strength and AP for those hard to get targets.

 

Meltas are good for forward moving generalist squads.... theres always a tank to pop, and at close range its even better than the plasmagun for killing enemies.

 

Flamers are good against hordes, and if theres gravity involved in the boarding actiong they are good.... but a fire in a gravityless oxygenated enviroment is.... catastrophic.

 

Best combiweapon? Unless your running an all plasma grey hunter squad 99% of the time your best bet is a combi-melta. It gives you that wonderful extra tank hunting shot right when you need it.

[baoh]

wow! im really chuffed with the feedback here guys, to help see through my eyes, i want to start collecting soul drinkers and from what i have read about them thier numbers are small and they specialise with boarding actions. ive also heard they have hardly any terminator suits, heavy weapons or other specialist equipment (not sure whther this is factual or fiction, so if you want to prove me wrong please do!) so as well as collecting them i want to kit them out in the way they would be kitted out, even if this make it harder for me to play them, as id like to get into thier way of fighting if i played with them that is.

 

this probably sounds like im making it hard for myself but my ocd suggests everything should be as its meant to be, otherwise i cant collect them......which i do want to! haha

 

i read my codex and it says only one special weapon per 10 man squad so im planning on having a tac squad without a heavy weapon, just a special and a sergeant w/combi weapon. thats the plan, so the sergeants are easily distinguished, but the commander are even more distinguished sporting thier cc weapons etc

 

sorry if ive gone on a bit

[Koremu]

I don't know about the Chapter Fluff, but I would recomend always taking the free Heavy Weapon. The sacrifice of a single 12" range Bolter Shot to gain the power of a free Multi Melta, Heavy Bolter or Missile Laucher is a no-brainer. The Multi-Melta is probably the most appropriate Heavy Weapon for boarding actions.

 

Failing that, can I have all your Heavy Weapons models? ;)

[baoh]

i thought bolters were 24"?

 

and about the heavy weapons! i might do for a good swap, not too sure yet! haha

[ShinyRhino]

i thought bolters were 24"?

 

and about the heavy weapons! i might do for a good swap, not too sure yet! haha

 

You're sort of right. Bolters get one shot at 24", or two at 12". Koremu's last post is talking about the fact that if you trade in the bolter of a Marine for the free heavy weapon, he still keeps his Bolt Pistol, which fires a single shot at 12", which is effectively trading one of the regular Bolter's two 12" shots for a heavy weapon.

[Chucku]

I'm leary of Plasmaguns. The whole 'gets hot' thing (1/18 chance per shot of wounding your own model), rapid-fire instead of assault status and high cost are three strikes against them in my book. In general I equip squads with a Meltagun, as it's a handy anti-vehicle/MC/IC kind of thing (sort of the Space Marine's RPG in my book) and take a Combi-Flamer for the Sgt.

[Koremu]

I'm leary of Plasmaguns. The whole 'gets hot' thing (1/18 chance per shot of wounding your own model), rapid-fire instead of assault status and high cost are three strikes against them in my book. In general I equip squads with a Meltagun, as it's a handy anti-vehicle/MC/IC kind of thing (sort of the Space Marine's RPG in my book) and take a Combi-Flamer for the Sgt.

I can understand your reluctance. I've had high value Sergeant models go up in smoke to Gets Hot! before now, and it is painful when it happens, and is why I generally only use Plasma Pistols on very cheap Sergeants now.

 

However, there's nothing like a Plasma Gun for sheer volume of white hot anti-MEQ+ firepower.

 

One of the best places for Plasma Guns is in squads with Feel No Pain - Command Squads and Plague Marines being the notable options. Reducing the odds of losing the model by half is a good thing.

[GreatEscape_13]

My advice is to always look at the combination of the heavy and the special in the unit.

 

Flamer is the good all-around choice in my opinion. Even a game where I never end up firing it, I still don't feel bad about including it with any particular tactical squad.

 

Plasma seems best to include in units with the Plasma Cannon or the Lascannon as their heavy. Those big points models mean more likelihood that the unit will be sitting back and shooting, and plasmagun seems to best match that.

 

Meltagun probably goes well with the cheap heavy weapons, as you will be more likely to be getting up close and personal with the squad. Also, if you're mounting the unit in transport this is a decent option.

 

The best advice may be to paint up one of each, and get a few of each heavy (buy a devastators box), and then run games with 3 tactical squads and try out the different combinations. See what works best for you. Flamer + Plasma Cannon is a personal favorite of mine of late... why? Because the squads carrying that load out have done well for me.

 

Cheers.

[baoh]

hmmmm all valid points. if the plasma cannon were to overheat, because its a larger weapon can it wound others? or is it the same as a plasma gun? i cant seem to find anything in the codex about this. also my soul drinkers will be drop pod based, no other transport options i'll start with 2 tac squads and a hq choice, all thrown in by the drop pods. i'd like there to be a heavy flamer for use with a space marine, instead of it being housed on a terminator. i like the idea of combi flamer serg, special flamer and heavy multi melta. but i mean it sounds good but i want to get the right mix for what equipment the soul drinkers would use and a good solid squad. i want them to bode well in a close firefight situation

[Koremu]

Personally I just have a selection of Specialist and Heavy Marine Models anyway, and by design my Sergeants don't war definitive squad markings, so I can field more or less whatever combination I want. However, if you want my thoughts on Special/Heavy combinationsin Tactical Squads, it comes down to this;

 

You either want total synergy, or complete diversity. Don't try to make a compromise.

 

What I mean by this is that you should either pair a Special and Heavy weapon so that they always, regardless of target, want to do a similar thing. A total synergy setup example is Plasma Gun + Multi-Melta. The two weapons have the same range banding (and, for further synergy, the same range banding as the Bolters), and get significantly nastier within 12" (again, as do Bolters), always want to do similar things (stand still and shoot mostly) and have similar power against similar target.

 

A total diversity setup would be something like Meltagun + Heavy Bolter. They are best used against different targets, at different ranges, with different movement requirements.

 

Both of these squad setups are good because both have no or few situations in which you are faced with a dilema of whichof the two to use. The synergistic method makes use of the "all alpha strike, all the time" simplicity (it is in fact my prefered Objective Camping squad), which the diversity one has a wider variety of options, and is my prefered reaction force.

 

Sergeants, of course, also fall under this rule. Either make them work completely with the Squads focus, or completely cover the Squads weakness. Don't try and do both, because you'll either fail or overspend to do it.

 

 

EDIT: For the record, all of the above is a grotesque oversimlification, but as a general principle it's true. Just don't expect it to be 100% infaliable.

[Grey Mage]

Actually Koremu... Id say thats a really good way to put it.

[pryor]

Fully understand wanting to do a Soul Drinkers force after all they are great books.

They do make mention of having "few" heavy weapons in particular mentioning missile launchers.

So maybe take only the free Heavy weapons (HB, MM or ML) and only have them in Tactical squads (so no devastators or sternguard heavies even). This way you keep the access open to the heavies but limit their bearing on the army like they do in the books.

As for special weapons nothing can really be said that hasn't been been already but I do suggest having a combi-flamer on a power fist sergeant - this gives you an assault weapon that always hits, allows you to charge and also offsets the anti-armour of the fist with anti-infantry.

You could also do the opposite (Power weapon with combi-melta) which might be more fluffy (I don't remember reading about any power fists other than that of the late chapter master) but, whilst you can still charge if it is used, if you miss that's it (especially bad against dread's cause it could leave you're squad open to counter-charge by something they can't whereas a fist can hurt anything).

Quick question - are you doing the army before or after their separation from the Imperium?

[baoh]

grey mage is right koremu, you've explained it well. and i agree with both koremu and pryors suggestions. and dont worry i wont hold you accountable for my failings! haha

 

and for pryor, im planning to do them after the separation. but, i dont want them to look tacky and all have weird mutations, i like the idea of sarpedon, but i might have another special character leading my 'strike force' maybe the apothecary or chaplain (sorry cant remember names) i also like the sergeant (i think) who has one of the very few terminator suits, but im not sure whether he is alive! haha

 

to add to the above, can a sergeant fire a two handed weapon one handed? i didnt think he could, thats why i thought he'd just have the combi weapon

[Grey Mage]

He cant fire one-handed... he cant do that with a combiweapon or bolter either- they dont count as CCWs. Unless you have true-grit, wich isnt in C:SM.

[baoh]

@ grey mage - do soul drinkers count as chaos then? i know they are renegade, but because they arent against the emperor and they dont pray to any particular gods i thought they'd sort of be neutral? i know chaos dont actually have to worship any gods i.e. my iron warriors, but i assumed because soul drinkers like the emperor, they'd be exempt?

[Vissah]

You can use any Codex you like mate.

Sure they fight for hte Emperor but they are also outcasts in the eyes of the Imperium so its your choosing.

[chapter master 454]

to answer your questions with one go or two I'll shall give you my personal opinion.

 

I personally have never put meltaguns in tacticals, I think that is really a waste. I personally prefer flamer and the plasma gun (the former over the latter in case you wonder) as the flamer is really useful for those men that stand on the objective because when the enemy near you can help clear away more with those auto-hits while the plasma helps with dealing that extra wound to whatever and if you want can also punish poor tank commanders who dismiss the squad and show even their side armour to it (Highest on tanks side bar the land raider and monolith tends to averaging at about 11-12).

 

Combis I think melta and flamer are the favoured, mainly due to tank bust for the former and serously hurting horde armies with the latter.

[Ryjak]

Just a quick note, 5th Edition does not have one-handed or two-handed weapons. Few models can even get three weapons, and unless you have a special rule, you can only ever fire one weapon in the Shooting Phase. The rules for the Assault Phase and which weapon combos grant a +1 Attack are also very clear.