Hunting daemons...

[Cpt_Reaper]

I'm just wondering. Now there is an army of pure daemons I was wondering. How well do Daemonhunters actually fare against the enemy they were designed to fight?

[jeffersonian000]

Not so well. In point of fact, Witch Hunters are better at killing daemons than Daemonhunters, due to the fact that the bulk of the rules we pay for in our higher point cost per unit are negated due to most daemons not actually counting as daemons or psykers these days. However, if we play smart and focue of shooting rather than close combat, daemon are just another army we get to fight being no stronger nor weaker than anyone else.

 

SJ

[wizard12]

Not so well...However, if we play smart and focue of shooting rather than close combat, daemon are just another army we get to fight being no stronger nor weaker than anyone else.

 

I agree. They have loads of AP3 weaponry, power weapons, fast and resilient units. It's really hard to play against an army following more than one god. but if your fighting an army folloing only one god, you should be able to adapt your tactics to fight them.

[Captain Malachi]

Daemons barely have any AP3 weaponry. In fact, all of three of our guns ignore 3+ saves, one of which is a one-shot tank killer (a bad one mind you), and they can all only be taken in very limited numbers. Our most common armour ignoring gun is a template that's either pointlessly expensive or comes on ridiculously fragile platforms. Basically, you really don't need to worry about our shooting, it's awful and expensive.

 

Power weapons, yeah we have a lot, but they're all on slow, fragile platforms (or slow at any rate, calling bloodcrushers fragile would be taking the piss). Basically, with the power weapon wielders, just walk away and use those nice shiny stormbolters to wipe out half the squad a turn. Bloodcrushers will be harder to kill but you can still walk away, and we need something you can't wipe out in one round of shooting.

 

The reason most of your anti-daemon wargear doesn't work is because we lost the rule it negates, and for the record most of it does still work just fine. Try a few games, play smart and make sure you're actually using tactics to fight daemons and not the ones you use agaisnt everyone else, and tell me you still don't ever stand a chance.

 

That wasn't a rant, if it sounds like one, I'm just trying to point out that daemonhunters are still able to fight against daemons perfectly well. Besides, if it was an auto-win for you everytime what would be the point? Daemons were never meant to be an easy win for you or anyone else, even back when they were part of the CSM list.

 

But, if you do want an auto-win and not a fun game, just take as many models with sanctuary as you can and some land raiders. I guarantee neither of you will have any fun, but at least you'll have won. Assuming the daemon player bothers to play you that is.

 

Edit- Wizard, our resilient units won't kill anything unless you let them get that close (which you can prevent, easily) and our fast units fall to any kind of firepower so quickly it's not even funny, hence why no-one uses most of them. Take plaguebearers and daemonettes as an example, they're your typical 'slow and resilient' and your typical 'fast and fragile' unit, plaguebearers have literally no killing power at all, and daemonettes will be lucky to survive the first turn. I assume it's bloodcrushers that bother you the most, and they are nasty, I'm not gonna lie, but like I said, they're so slow! I prefer fiends now because of that.

[number6]

Not so well. In point of fact, Witch Hunters are better at killing daemons than Daemonhunters, due to the fact that the bulk of the rules we pay for in our higher point cost per unit are negated due to most daemons not actually counting as daemons or psykers these days.

What?! :D Since when did the DH codex get to overrule another codex?! We all know Codex > BRB, but there is absolutely no reason to insist that DH Codex > Daemons Codex. This is not a good precedent to set for any reason. Saying that one codex gets to overrule another codex would destroy the game pretty quickly.

 

Firstly, the DH codex does not have verbiage that gives it exclusive rights to define a daemon. It merely provides a list. It does not state that only those units listed count as daemons and no other.

 

Secondly, the Daemons codex clearly and explicitly states that every unit in it are daemons.

 

Thirdly, from a pure sportsmanship stance, anybody that plays an army that is called "Daemons" yet wants to rules lawyer their way out of being subject to rules that affect "daemons" is clearly a jerk and doesn't deserve the time of day.

 

And fourthly: in absolutely no tournament I have ever seen or participated in has such shenanigans been allowed. It's patently ridiculous.

 

Case closed. RAW says units in the Daemons codex are daemons, the DH codex does not -- indeed can not -- countermand that, therefor they are subject to the rules on p. 8 of the DH codex. (The ones that still happen to apply in 5th edition, that is, of course.)

 

+++++

 

To answer the initial question: Absolutely the DH are brutal against Chaos Daemons. And this would be true regardless of any adherence to anti-daemon rules. Here's why.

 

Play mech DH. Take 3 land raiders -- LR Crusaders would be best -- and you're golden. Daemons have zero answer for AV 14. "Soul grinders" you say? Ridiculous. They're BS 3 and require quite a bit of luck to remove your AV 14 before you have removed the grinders. The odds are heavily against any such possibility. Fiends are otherwise the only true anti-mech available, and they rely on rending assaults. Their odds are also not terribly good, especially considering you'll get the opportunity to shoot them down before they can close.

 

Add in inquisitors with 3x plasma retinue and two mystics in Rhinos -- take as many of these units as you can afford -- and you've just pressed the "Auto Win" button. You don't even need Sanctuary -- another "Auto Win" button, for that matter.

 

Keep your GKs in the raiders, let your crusaders shoot down deep strikers detected by the mystics. Anything that remains alive can be destroyed by shooting plasma out the Rhino fire points and disembarking GKs with incinerators. Watch the daemons army go "POOF" before your eyes. It's ridiculously easy.

 

If you want a challenge, you have play all footslogging DH and forget about Inquisitors. Then you could conceivably lose the game. Nevertheless, if you castle up and deny offensive deep-striking -- be sure to strategically spread your deployment forces to create "traps" of board space near your infantry -- then you stand a good chance of shooting daemons down enough that you can brace and win the inevitable assault. This is the only way to make playing against Daemons competitive for any Imperial army. (Doesn't even matter what Imperial army it is.) If you play mech Imperial, you should beat daemons each and every game you play without breaking a sweat.

[the jeske]

how do you fit 3 land raiders , enough scoring troops and inq in to a normal sized 1500 pts army[GT size] or 1750 one , that plays good against the game field we have now?

[number6]

Heh. Well, the idea that 1500 pts is a "normal" sized army depends on where you live. 1750 pts, 1850 pts, and 2000 pts are all more common wherever I've been in the US. The UK In particular seems focused on the idea that 1500 pts is what you should play, but that's hardly large enough to even get a decent skirmish going, let alone try and make a coherent "army" out of it.

 

Anyway, at 1500 pts, I wouldn't take 3 raiders. I'd take two. For an all-comers 1500 pts DH list truly worthy of a touch-as-nails tournament, I'd do this.

 

HQ

[245 pts] BC; 4 GKT retinue

 

Elite

[245 pts] 5 GKTs

[125 pts] Inquisitor; Multi-melta servitor, 2 mystics; Rhino, smoke launchers

 

Troop

[128 pts] 5 ISTs, 2x melta; Rhino, extra armour, smoke launchers

[123 pts] 5 ISTs, 2x melta; Rhino, smoke launchers

[123 pts] 5 ISTs, 2x melta; Rhino, smoke launchers

 

Heavy Support

[258 pts] Land Raider Crusader, smoke launchers

[258 pts] Land Raider Crusader, smoke launchers

 

Total: 1500 pts

 

For 1750, it all depends on what you want to do. I tend to think two raiders is probably enough for any army and there's more that can be done with those points that I'd prefer. (I said 3 raiders earlier because it is such an obvious auto-win against Daemons.) But to continue a potent all-comer's theme:

 

HQ

[245 pts] BC; 4 GKT retinue

 

Elite

[245 pts] 5 GKTs

[160 pts] Inquisitor, Multi-melta servitor, 2 mystics; Rhino, extra armour, smoke launchers

 

Troop

[200 pts] 5 PAGKs, 2x psycannon, targeter

[128 pts] 5 ISTs, 2x melta; Rhino, extra armour, smoke launchers

[128 pts] 5 ISTs, 2x melta; Rhino, extra armour, smoke launchers

[128 pts] 5 ISTs, 2x melta; Rhino, extra armour, smoke launchers

 

Heavy Support

[258 pts] Land Raider Crusader, smoke launchers

[258 pts] Land Raider Crusader, smoke launchers

 

Total: 1750 pts

 

At 2000 pts, you can go in a ton of different directions with those extra 250 pts. But so long as you keep the core theme as expressed at 1500 and 1750 pts, you'll be fine. Example list:

 

HQ

[245 pts] BC; 4 GKT retinue

 

Elite

[245 pts] 4 GKTs

[160 pts] Inquisitor; Multi-melta servitor, 2 mystics; Chimera, extra armour, smoke launchers

[120 pts] Callidus Assassin

 

Troop

[200 pts] 5 PAGKs, 2x psycannon

[128 pts] 5 ISTs, 2x melta; Rhino, extra armour, smoke launchers

[128 pts] 5 ISTs, 2x melta; Rhino, extra armour, smoke launchers

[128 pts] 5 ISTs, 2x melta; Rhino, extra armour, smoke launchers

[128 pts] 5 ISTs, 2x melta; Rhino, extra armour, smoke launchers

 

Heavy Support

[258 pts] Land Raider Crusader, smoke launchers

[258 pts] Land Raider Crusader, smoke launchers

 

Total: 1998 pts

 

This is a strong all-comers army, and is particularly potent against armies that struggle against mech. (Well, the 2000 pt version is kinda hard to fill out properly without inducting IG; you'll note the assassin and dependence on four IST units, which is mostly just :D . You could also ally in Sisters in place of some ISTs and the assassin. Either choice -- IG or sisters -- would improve the army considerably.) Like Daemons, for example. If you wanted to tune it specifically to counter daemons, replace some of those melta guns with plasma and really watch the daemons players cry.

 

If you really wanted 3 raiders at 2000 pts, just build on top of the 1500 pts list by buying a 3rd LRC and put some PAGKs with an incinerator inside (voila!).

 

If you're confident about 1750 not requiring so many melta guns, you could do 3 raiders at 1750 pretty easily, too. Drop one of the Troop ISTs and the Elite GKTs, replace with a land raider crusader and PAGKs with an incinerator (voila!).

 

The 2000 pt army could be modified in numerous ways and still be good ... maybe even better. Drop one of the Inquisitors and/or an IST unit or two and replace with inducted IG, or allied Troops sisters (mounted and with 2x meltas, of course). Maybe even splurge and take a Callidus Assassin, 'cause you can. :D

[gmsniper]

I play against deamons regularly and have no problems.

Purgation Squads with psycannons make deamon players cry.......thats 10 dead bloodletters.

Kill the flamers first, because they do the most damage. Most deamons do not shoot well.

The only problem I have is killing soulgrinders......

[wizard12]

It's all good to have purigation squads when the daemons are far away but if they deep strike close enough with a large enough unit you could be facing 3 or 4 power weapon weilding close combat manics and only your purigation squads have a seriously deminnished S6 fighting power.

[gmsniper]

I have never had a squad deepstrike so close that I have been assualted. the deepstriking basically allows one free turn of shooting.

[Gentlemanloser]

I've been playing a Daemon army (Mixed Gods) since the Codex was released, farily often (about once a fortnight).

 

The GK aren't great versus the Daemon Codex. We're better in Assault than most other MEQ armies, due to one thing (Rites...), but our expense is our utter downfall. Daemons are designed to eat MEQ armies alive. And they do it very well.

 

Overall, DH fare better than most, excluding the totally broken Sanctuary, due to Mystics. But they can be easily allid in for other imperial armies.

 

Our most common armour ignoring gun is a template that's either pointlessly expensive or comes on ridiculously fragile platforms. Basically, you really don't need to worry about our shooting, it's awful and expensive.

 

What the fragile Daemon Prince of Nurgle? ;) As for Flamers, the MEQ guys I play with consider them one of, if not the, most awesome/broken/cheesy (choose your pick) anti MEQ unit in the game. A Flame Template that wounds 50% of the time, and offer no Armour/Cover saves eats any MEQ that doesn't have a (new) SS for breakfast. Small squads of three flamers routinely destroy 10 Man MEQ (SM/Sternguard/PAGK/Whatever) in a single salvo. Either from a DS (not first wave) off an Icon, or from thier nice 12" move.

 

The rest of your shooting, sure, it sucks. But that's why you have an over abundance of Power/Rending CC attacks. It's just the other shooting you do have is painfully destoying for MEQ armies.

 

The reason most of your anti-daemon wargear doesn't work is because we lost the rule it negates, and for the record most of it does still work just fine.

 

Banishment, Null Rods, Unguents of Warding, Psychic Hoods and Aegis Suits. Most of what works? Rites and Sacred Insence. Most our Anti Daemon stuff ws rendered utterly useless.

 

Play mech DH. Take 3 land raiders -- LR Crusaders would be best -- and you're golden. Daemons have zero answer for AV 14.

 

Tried that Number6. ;) They've got at least 2 options, and they don't need any more! They've got enough in Unholy Might Daemon Princes. They (and they can easily fit in a DP to match a LR - Unless you're going for some 7 LR spam! :evil:) popped my LRs game after game without breaking sweat.

 

If the DPs were going to have problems, my opponent was going to mess around with thier flying Melta Bombs. Which I think would have easily taken out my LR. But he never had the need to try. The Princes were allways enough.

 

One of the best defences versus Daemon CC is to try to tie up large squds with Dreadnoughts. But Dreadies get eaten alive by the DPs that would be there for LR demolishing, and my opponent started breaking down his largish 'Letter squads. And 'Letters are still fearsome in CC even at smaller squad sizes.

 

Edit- Wizard, our resilient units won't kill anything unless you let them get that close (which you can prevent, easily) and our fast units fall to any kind of firepower so quickly it's not even funny, hence why no-one uses most of them. Take plaguebearers and daemonettes as an example, they're your typical 'slow and resilient' and your typical 'fast and fragile' unit, plaguebearers have literally no killing power at all, and daemonettes will be lucky to survive the first turn. I assume it's bloodcrushers that bother you the most, and they are nasty, I'm not gonna lie, but like I said, they're so slow! I prefer fiends now because of that.

 

It's all down to your DS. You need to be more 'agressive'. Or just get some units to live through the first turn. Then you're golden.

 

As your Resilint units will then DS off of icons exactly where you need them, and Run. You should have *no* poblem closing with anyone, unless is a fully mechanised fast army, in which case send your Flamers (in mass) and DP of Nurgle with Wings to chase them down. Flamer Squads glancing Transports (ah! Should also add these to anti LR banes above...) will ruin thier day.

 

I've never had to face Plguebearers, nor Daemonettes. Bloodletters outclass both, and as you say 'Crushers are devestating to just about everything (bar Dreadnoughts!) and they're not that slow. Especially if they DS off of a DPs Icon...

 

On the whole, 'nilla Marines have a better time facing the Daemon army, due to Combat Squads, thier cheaper units, and SS Termies. You have to limit the amount Deamons can wipe out in single CC engagements, and still have enough firepower to down the first wave entirely. Otheriwse it moves up and other stuff DSes off icons, and you soon find yourself quickly overrun in a CC that you just cannot match.

 

MEQ this is. I'm sure the GEQ horde armies have a much better time facing Daemons.

[number6]

Tried that Number6. ;) They've got at least 2 options, and they don't need any more! They've got enough in Unholy Might Daemon Princes. They (and they can easily fit in a DP to match a LR - Unless you're going for some 7 LR spam! :evil:) popped my LRs game after game without breaking sweat.

 

If the DPs were going to have problems, my opponent was going to mess around with thier flying Melta Bombs. Which I think would have easily taken out my LR. But he never had the need to try. The Princes were allways enough.

I've never had trouble with DPs popping raiders. Sure, it will happen once in a while, but so long as you keep your raiders moving 6+ inches every turn, the odds are quite poor for DPs to pop raiders on a regular basis. And DH crusaders can still fire everything no matter how far they move, too, so you don't lose anything by staying fast and mobile like that. DPs drop down, you keep moving and you shred them with mystic-guided fire once on their turn, and then on your turn you shred them some more with the crusaders. POOF!

 

And screamers are no threat at all. Against armour they get only 1 attack each, and have to hit on 6s. Again, the odds are very poor. And if you're unreasonably worried about it, hit them with some hurricane bolters and watch them disappear.

 

For a mech force with raiders, Daemons are really no trouble at all. It's very easy to beat them.

[Gentlemanloser]

Sure, but that's up to 12 for a full Squad (costing well under the price of a LR!). I doubt they'd get much use, it was only something he was considering as a test, if my LR proved too troublesome.

 

But maybe he just has really good dice then. Ages ago I changed my lists to always include 2 LR, and they die to DPs. With Unhloy Might they need a 9 on 2d6 to pop. With 5 attacks.

 

And I did forget the damage Breath can do. NDP flies in, uses Breath hoping for a good glance (and one 6 for imobilised and it's over), then rocks in 5 MC hits. It never seems to end well for me. :(

[DinoDoc]

@ #6: Why Crusader over Godhammer in an all comers list?

[jeffersonian000]

Some people like the GK Crusader due to its ability to fire its Hurricanes all the time as well as the frag launchers that make up for the lack of frag grenades on our guys. Others prefer the Godhammer due to its ability to stand off and be useful outside of the 36" range bracket. And then there are those that prefer Dreadnoughts to Land Raiders for other various reasons.

 

Here is a 1500pt pure GK list I like that is simple and functional in the water style:

 

BC + 5 GKT retinue w/ 1x incinerator

 

:o

Justicar + 6 PAGK w/ 1x incinerator

 

;)

Justicar + 6 PAGK w/ 1x incinerator

 

GK Crusader w/ smoke launchers

 

GK LAnd Raider w/ extra armour, search light, smoke launchers

 

GK LAnd Raider w/ extra armour, search light, smoke launchers

 

SJ

 

*edited for formating

[the jeske]

Well, the idea that 1500 pts is a "normal" sized army depends on where you live.

well its standard for GT sized events.

 

as the lists go . how do you hold objectives with 5 man IST and 5 man PAGK, in 5th ed where people spam mulit shot weapons and stuff that counters horde[or more precise Ork and IG] cover saves ? your playing a LR rush build based around 2 units of GK terminators , that suffers a lot from LR meta [and DH LR dont have the loyalist sm Machine spirits +weaker AC for crusaders] . what does your list do against vulkan builds [or generally against loyalists sm who run 2 drop dreads and mulit melta attack bikes] or even generic chaos lists. Because out of those 3 lists the only the 2000 seems to work , but then again that can be said about a lot of armies played at 2000[specially if they get first turn]. the 1500 army looks very weak for kill point missions and thats always 1/3 games played.

 

I can understand that a LR rush can be problemtatic for a demon player [specially if they try to play without nurgle DPs] , but those lists seem rather weak for 5th ed.

[Hellios]

Why is sanctuary broken? I know the rule but most good generals should be able to find a way around it unless they are Mono-Khorne (and don't feel like sitting blood thirsters outside with whips (which would be a waste of blood thirsters, and no guarantee of killing the Inq) or Nurgle with Ku'gath being about the only one. I guess also nurgle princes or Skarbrand might be able to breath of chaos B) but as I said thats not great, (boon of mutation is also fun but again not great)

 

Tzeentch can just shoot you anyway, Slaanesh can just use pavane of slaanesh (unless I'm missing something) on the unit with sanctuary which will then break sanctuary and so you can be assaulted and then you die.

 

Also I would be killing vehicles most likely in combat so its winged DP's (ironhide) and maybe Blood Thirsters you might have to worry about with your LR's and I can most likely have 2-3 in CC by the 2nd turn if I really wanted to gamble I guess I could even get 5 in.

[Gentlemanloser]

Why is sanctuary broken? I know the rule but most good generals should be able to find a way around it

 

there are exactly two shooting attack in the whole Codex that can get thorugh Sanctuary. Everything else in the Codex can't do squat against it.

 

(I can't remember which two, but there are two little used powers that don't require LoS)

 

If you don't have those, and they aren't *any* help if the Inqusitor is inside a LR, which he should be, there is *nothing* the Daemon army can do, but run aorund the board gettign shot at.

 

Not fun to play.

 

All the DH player needs to do is either sit on his objective, move fast in t1&2 to the majority of objects, or stay still inside the Sancutary bubbles to guarantee a draw, depending on mission. If it's annihalation, all he needs is to pop one squad, and it's auto win. Thanks for playing.

 

Tzeentch can just shoot you anyway, Slaanesh can just use pavane of slaanesh (unless I'm missing something) on the unit with sanctuary which will then break sanctuary and so you can be assaulted and then you die.

 

You can't draw LoS through, or into, a Sanctuary bubble. So you can't shoot nor pavane the Inquisitor, or anyone else inside it.

 

Edit:

 

Boom of Mutation is one, which can't effect the Inquisitor if he's inside his LR. Aura of Decay is the second, which again can't damage the LR the Inquisitor is inside.

[Hellios]

Why is sanctuary broken? I know the rule but most good generals should be able to find a way around it

 

there are exactly two shooting attack in the whole Codex that can get thorugh Sanctuary. Everything else in the Codex can't do squat against it.

 

(I can't remember which two, but there are two little used powers that don't require LoS)

 

If you don't have those, and they aren't *any* help if the Inqusitor is inside a LR, which he should be, there is *nothing* the Daemon army can do, but run aorund the board gettign shot at.

 

Not fun to play.

 

All the DH player needs to do is either sit on his objective, move fast in t1&2 to the majority of objects, or stay still inside the Sancutary bubbles to guarantee a draw, depending on mission. If it's annihalation, all he needs is to pop one squad, and it's auto win. Thanks for playing.

 

Tzeentch can just shoot you anyway, Slaanesh can just use pavane of slaanesh (unless I'm missing something) on the unit with sanctuary which will then break sanctuary and so you can be assaulted and then you die.

 

You can't draw LoS through, or into, a Sanctuary bubble. So you can't shoot nor pavane the Inquisitor, or anyone else inside it.

 

Edit:

 

Boom of Mutation is one, which can't effect the Inquisitor if he's inside his LR. Aura of Decay is the second, which again can't damage the LR the Inquisitor is inside.

 

 

 

OOO I didn't know it blocked LOS (shows how often daemon hunters appear here) Thanks :no:

[Gentlemanloser]

Glad I could help! :no:

[number6]

Sure, but that's up to 12 for a full Squad (costing well under the price of a LR!).

If the daemons player wants to splurge on 12 (or more) screamers, you should be thanking him! They're terrible units with no purpose unless you're playing a themed Tzeentch-only list and want completeness. They are extremely easy to scrape off the table with only a modicum of shooting.

But maybe he just has really good dice then. Ages ago I changed my lists to always include 2 LR, and they die to DPs. With Unhloy Might they need a 9 on 2d6 to pop. With 5 attacks.

If you keep your raiders moving so that a DP like that needs 6s to hit, his odds of penetrating AV 14 (you don't need to worry about glances) is only 23%. (5/6 chance to hit, 5/18 chance to pen with a 9+ on 2d6.) Which means that fully 3/4 of the time, your raider will be fine. :)

And I did forget the damage Breath can do. NDP flies in, uses Breath hoping for a good glance (and one 6 for imobilised and it's over), then rocks in 5 MC hits. It never seems to end well for me. :(

So what exactly are you afraid of? A 1/36 chance that a glancing Breath will immobilize the raider? ;)

 

I'm not saying it's impossible. Yes, bad things will occasionally happen. But most of the time, nothing bad will come of it. And anyway, if you're running at least 2 raiders, you've dramatically reduced the odds of losing both by several orders of magnitude. Daemons really can't handle AV 14. That's your ace in the hole. Keeping your armour moving, and applying GK power and IST meltas at appropriate times and places all but ensure you a victory.

Well, the idea that 1500 pts is a "normal" sized army depends on where you live.

well its standard for GT sized events.

In Europe maybe. Not here in the US. ;) (When they were running GTs, of course.)

as the lists go . how do you hold objectives with 5 man IST and 5 man PAGK, in 5th ed where people spam mulit shot weapons and stuff that counters horde[or more precise Ork and IG] cover saves ?

Why are you letting your ISTs get out of the Rhinos? They should never do that unless forced out. Shouldn't your opponent be more worried about two units of GKTs -- the game's best terminators -- in DH Crusaders -- the game's best tanks -- instead? There isn't a lot that 10-12 GKTs can't whallop. And for those things they can't, you have, gosh, how many melta shots + STR 6 shots + bolter shots?

 

Everything is safe in armour. Everything can move quickly. Common mechanized tactics of stacking armour to ensure 3+ cover saves -- on top of the unique DH smoke launcher rules -- all but ensure that the armour survives for a good long time. (And yes, I did say "3+ cover save" in reference to a vehicle. Read up on the cover save rules in the BRB to see what I mean.)

 

Works for me.

your playing a LR rush build based around 2 units of GK terminators , that suffers a lot from LR meta [and DH LR dont have the loyalist sm Machine spirits +weaker AC for crusaders] .

The weaker stats for the DH assault cannon do suck a little bit, but that is way more than made up for by their special rule regarding the hurricane bolters. And DH raiders do indeed have the loyalist SM machine spirits. See the official GW DH FAQ for yourself. The DH raider is the only tank that can fire every weapon system at full BS while moving more than 6".

what does your list do against vulkan builds [or generally against loyalists sm who run 2 drop dreads and mulit melta attack bikes] or even generic chaos lists. Because out of those 3 lists the only the 2000 seems to work , but then again that can be said about a lot of armies played at 2000[specially if they get first turn]. the 1500 army looks very weak for kill point missions and thats always 1/3 games played.

You assume a simplistic, 1-dimensional tactical approach. There is much more to playing mech successfully than running full speed ahead. You have to learn to protect your armoured assets while projecting maximum firepower, especially with your own melta threats. The army lists I posted have tons of melta. Even a Vulkan list can be jealous of the armount of meltas we have ... because we also have better tanks, better smoke launchers, and better terminators. Vulkan's termies are hardly any better off against GKTs than any other lesser Astartes termies.

I can understand that a LR rush can be problemtatic for a demon player [specially if they try to play without nurgle DPs] , but those lists seem rather weak for 5th ed.

Again, you assume a "LR rush" strategy as the only viable playstyle with the army lists I posted. Again, there's a lot more to playing mechanized armies than simple straightforward pushes.

 

@ #6: Why Crusader over Godhammer in an all comers list?

For all the reasons listed here, I think the DH Crusader is far and away the better choice. In 4th edition, it was a much more viable tactic to play stand-off shooting. This suited DH just fine, which wants to protect its assets, and so the GHLR was a good choice. But since 5th edition, mechanized armies -- and meltas -- are king. It is very difficult to keep enemies 24" or farther away, and almost everybody is toting a melta. The only way to combat that is to ramp up our own mechanization, to increase the use of meltas ourselves, and to increase the amount of firepower we can pump out.

 

If you're not using melta ISTs in rhinos, then the LRC may not work as well. The LRC needs to work in concert with other mobile melta platforms to work. But if you do that, the DH LRC shines out clearly as the single best tank in all of 40K. It can drop armour and it can drop infantry, and it can do both in the same turn. What's not to love? The frag launchers are just gravy. The GHLR isn't anywhere near as useful in 5th edition as it was in 4th.

[revnow]

Number6 has really hammered most of the main points, so I'm just going to add a few in terms of advice.

 

- Read the rules in Codex: DH, Codex: Daemons, both FAQs, the BRB, and the Gotcha FAQ Sticky on this sub-forum. Then read them again. 99% of games DH players lose to Daemons players can be chalked up to execrable dice, poor 5th Edition generalship and most importantly, lacking knowledge of critical rules that interact between the armies. Given a good (read: intricate/fundamentally sound) knowledge of 5th Editions rules and both codexes, Daemonhunters are the Rock to Daemons Scissors.

 

- Crusaders allow DH players to potentially cause significant harm to a soul Grinder (Daemons only response to Land Raiders) and any squad of Daemon troops/infantry in a single turn of shooting while still moving >6". +2 Crusaders with mounted GK are a Damon player's nightmare.

 

- Daemons come in piecemeal and without focus. Mech DH can easily become a wedge army when played water style. 1750 points that's better in every phase of them game than 875 pts is a really unfair matchup.

 

- Daemonhunters can (and should) spam stormbolters, stormbolters are anit-Daemon weapons.

 

- Incinerators are 5th Edition's best anti-Daemon infantry weapon bar none. Mech DH all-comers should be taking them anyway, facing Daemons with them is just a bonus.

 

- A properly equipped (Sacred Incense, Grimoire, Storm Shield) GM (common at 1750+) and retinue will cut through almost any Greater Daemon, and what they can't beat to death, they can wait out in the Crusader.

 

Simply put a 5th Edition DH army should almost never lose to any Daemon army.

[Captain Malachi]

Wow, all you guys saying mech is invincible to daemon armies have clearly never been on the recieving end of daemonzilla. I regularly wipe the floor with mech armies with little problem, even raiders make fairly easy prey.

 

However, if it's not daemonzilla then yeah, mech's annoying.

[revnow]

How's hitting on 6's?

 

In all seriousness though, Daemonzilla's really big issue with Raider Daemonhunters isn't that they can't penetrate the Raiders, its that they can't catch them in a concerted punch and then hit them. Crusaders can spend a good period of the game running from big ugly Daemons, pulling them out of position and putting wounds on them with the Hurricanes and MM/AssCannon. Then when the time comes the GM/BC with Sacred incense and Grimoire pops out with the retinue and wastes the DP and any of its big ugly friends. If Daemons could deliver a concentrated punch into the Raiders over a couple of turns they would be competitive, but Daemoinc Assault and the relative speed of Mech DH compared to footslogging Daemons just destroys that. The best way to kill a Raider is shooting, and Daemons just don't have that.

 

Mech DH can play reactive to the Daemon army, there is little potential for it to happen the other way around.

[jeffersonian000]

The problem with what all of the above posters have mentioned for allowing DH to combat daemon is that you have to focus your DH army towards daemon hunting, which takes away from its ability to fight against most other codex armies. Taking any anti-daemon gear is functionally useless again a Tau army, or Orks, or Marines, or Guard, or Tyranid, and maybe slightly useful versus Eldar and only useful versus Dark Eldar if you rule that anti-daemon gear works against warp beasts and pray that your opponent takes the one unit you might possibily be about to fight with the points wasted on enemy specific gear. No one above has addressed the fact that per the rules as written, daemons in the Chaos Daemons codex might not even count as daemons from the DH point of view due to the poor wording in our own codex, let alone the fact that codex Daemon powers are not psychic in nature and therefore all of our anti-psyker gear is functionally useless.

 

On Lande Raiders, yes our Crusaders are the best in the game, but they are not the best Lander Raider to have in an all-comers army. For each Crusader you take, you deny yourself 1-2 twin-linked Lascannons (our only long range anti-vehicle/anti-MC weapon).

 

On Sanctuary, yes it is awesome versus daemons, but it does nothing versus everything else.

 

And the one point no one has really address in their post about how good DH are against daemons is our unit point cost versus daemon unit point cost. Daemons can field more for less, forceing DH to stay out of close combat as number-hammer will annihilate DH in any engagement. That forces us to use conservative tactics, to keep ranges open and long, to whittle down enemy units before even thinking about rushing into the close combat where our guys' numbers work against them.

 

So yes, I do not agree that Daemonhunters are balanced against an army based on what they were intended to fight. They are at best an elite army capable of focused fire with mobility, one that only engages in close combat versus smaller/weaker enemy units if they have no other choice.

 

SJ