Hunting daemons...

[daboarder]

the only item i see in the above posts that is sololy effective against deamons is the grimiore. and if you dont want an army themed against deamon hunting then perhaps this may be the wrong army for you.

[number6]

The problem with what all of the above posters have mentioned for allowing DH to combat daemon is that you have to focus your DH army towards daemon hunting, which takes away from its ability to fight against most other codex armies. Taking any anti-daemon gear is functionally useless again a Tau army, or Orks, or Marines, or Guard, or Tyranid, and maybe slightly useful versus Eldar and only useful versus Dark Eldar if you rule that anti-daemon gear works against warp beasts and pray that your opponent takes the one unit you might possibily be about to fight with the points wasted on enemy specific gear.

None of my armies ever take any anti-daemon gear, and I regularly beat daemons. None of the above army lists I posted had any anti-daemon gear in them, and daemons simply cannot beat those armies.

 

I have long maintained that taking any anti-daemon gear is a waste of points. The only exception is sacred incense because, at least, it has a purpose against multiple armies. My assessment hasn't changed with the change in game rules or the advent of the new all-daemons army.

No one above has addressed the fact that per the rules as written, daemons in the Chaos Daemons codex might not even count as daemons from the DH point of view due to the poor wording in our own codex, let alone the fact that codex Daemon powers are not psychic in nature and therefore all of our anti-psyker gear is functionally useless.

Au contraire. I addressed exactly this issue earlier.

On Lande Raiders, yes our Crusaders are the best in the game, but they are not the best Lander Raider to have in an all-comers army. For each Crusader you take, you deny yourself 1-2 twin-linked Lascannons (our only long range anti-vehicle/anti-MC weapon).

Yes it is the best land raider in the game. How do you keep enemies far enough away to get more than one shot in with those godhammer lascannons? How do you drop enemy infantry with meltas before they get to you?

 

5th edition changed gameplay dramatically in favor of mechanized/fast armies. Stop playing 4th edition and play 5th instead. Melta weapons are king, and you need them, too. You need to pop enemy transports immediately, reliably, and then you need to eliminate the exposed infantry immediately so they don't melta you in return. The crusader is the only tank for this task, and it's excellent at it. Especially when you pair it up with a formidable array of allied armoured melta delivery units (i.e., melta inquisitor retinues and ISTs) and assault units that trump some of the best assault units in the game (i.e., GKTs).

On Sanctuary, yes it is awesome versus daemons, but it does nothing versus everything else.

So don't take it. It's an "Auto-Win" button against Daemons anyway, and we don't need yet another one beyond land raiders. At least let daemon players think they have chance! :lol:

And the one point no one has really address in their post about how good DH are against daemons is our unit point cost versus daemon unit point cost. Daemons can field more for less, forceing DH to stay out of close combat as number-hammer will annihilate DH in any engagement. That forces us to use conservative tactics, to keep ranges open and long, to whittle down enemy units before even thinking about rushing into the close combat where our guys' numbers work against them.

You don't say anything new here about the DH army that hasn't been known since the army first appeared. And yet we did and continue to win games just fine. When has the DH ever not been outnumbered 2, 3, 4, 5 times to 1? ;)

So yes, I do not agree that Daemonhunters are balanced against an army based on what they were intended to fight. They are at best an elite army capable of focused fire with mobility, one that only engages in close combat versus smaller/weaker enemy units if they have no other choice.

I suggest you try the army builds out I suggested earlier. It's eye-opening. DH make highly competitive all-comer's armies. But as the codex ages and new codexes and game editions come out, our options for remaining that competitive become limited.

 

I still play my DH mostly all GK, and I still play at least half of my games primarily footslogging. But I've played enough 5th edition games now to have it hammered home that this is a gimpy way to play in 5th edition. It really only continues to work against people who haven't changed up their armies or tactics to match with 5th edition's rules. But when I alter my armies and tactics appropriately, I smoke these kinds of opponents.

[DinoDoc]

You've almost talked me into retooling my DH army from being pure GK. I just have one last question, How necessary is the IQ?

[number6]

You've almost talked me into retooling my DH army from being pure GK. I just have one last question, How necessary is the IQ?

I think they're vital. It's the only way we have to deal with deep-striking melta threats. Without the mystics, all an opponent has to do is drop in a few MM dreads, melta-gunning tacticals, melta-gunning sterguard, or MM speeders and we would be severely hamstrung. The mystics give you a buffer zone that makes it dangerous for the opponent to drop in those meltas and slag our armour before we've had a chance to apply them.

 

With the mystics, you'll have your choice of melta weapons and/or anything else that would be suitable for scraping the offending deep-striker(s) off before they get to do anything to you.

 

Without the mystics, you'd have to create walls of infantry and/or rhinos around the raiders to protect them and then deal with the unavoidable losses that would accrue when a heavy flamer and/or melta weapon drops in and slags its initial target, even if it isn't one of your raiders. Armies like Tau can afford to sacrifice Kroot or Piranhas to such noble causes because by doing so they will have created a trap that immediately pounces on enemy units that expose themselves that way.

 

The lists I posted have a decent amount of redundancy and ability to sacrifice, but it's limited. We are still relatively pricey, and while sacrifices will have to be made in most games, we can't do so willy-nilly. Inquisitors help mitigate a significant amount of that risk.

[Captain Malachi]

It's an "Auto-Win" button against Daemons anyway, and we don't need yet another one beyond land raiders. At least let daemon players think they have chance! :lol:

Ok, I'm going to say this one last time then I'm done with this thread. Land raiders are NOT an auto-win against daemons. I regularly beat those raider rush lists, and yes they are in the hands of capable generals. That's it, I'm done.

[Mattsama]

It's an "Auto-Win" button against Daemons anyway, and we don't need yet another one beyond land raiders. At least let daemon players think they have chance! :lol:

Ok, I'm going to say this one last time then I'm done with this thread. Land raiders are NOT an auto-win against daemons. I regularly beat those raider rush lists, and yes they are in the hands of capable generals. That's it, I'm done.

 

I think the disconnect here is that #6 is not condoning a raider-rush list. He is advizing a raider-dance list. With LRCs we can move far enough to make your CC superiority seriously handicapped while harrassing your troop squads into the ground.

 

The real strengths of DH (IMO) in 5th are two fold:

 

1) High points force us to have fewer squads. Putting them in raiders makes them very resilient. Great for denying kill points.

 

2) Full rounds of shooting from LRCs even after they have moved 6+ can make tabling your opponent in objective missions much easier. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Daemons are far more resilient than I give them credit for and the TLAC/MM/HB (thats up to 17 shots if you leave yourself close enough to a squad that has no chance of popping your armor) just aren't that good. But I haven't seen otherwise yet...

[number6]

Ok, I'm going to say this one last time then I'm done with this thread. Land raiders are NOT an auto-win against daemons. I regularly beat those raider rush lists, and yes they are in the hands of capable generals. That's it, I'm done.

There's no reason to get upset or take this personally. I just think the statistics -- and my own game experience -- speak for themselves.

 

If you properly keep your raider moving, a DP has only a 13.5% chance of immobilizing or destroying it. (That includes both glancing and penetrating hits.) Any other damage to the raider is essentially meaningless.

 

The odds of any one DP stopping two land raiders a measley 1.8%.

The odds of any one DP stopping three raiders is a paltry 0.2%.

 

This generously assumes you make zero attempts whatsoever to protect your raiders from the DPs other than just moving. You're not shooting at it. You're not assaulting it. You're just moving 6+" each turn with them. It assumes that upon the turn it deep strikes and you shoot at it -- 'cause you brought mystics -- and the subsequent turn of shooting (and possible assault) you get -- because the DP can't assault when it arrives -- you don't destroy it first. Even without mystics -- or in the case where the daemons player drops in too far away for the mystics to detect, you still don't bother to focus attention on the "threat" and wipe it out before it gets a chance to act. Is there some way a DP can hope to survive the insane amount of firepower the army lists I provided can pump out? Especially considering that to such armies, there is virtually nothing else that can threaten the army?

 

There is nothing any Khorne unit can do to raiders at all. They can be dealt with at your leisure.

 

There is nothing any Nurgle unit can do to raiders at all. They can be dealt with at your leisure.

 

Tzeentch units can muster bolts of change, but the 5.5% chance that bolts have to immobilize or wreck a raider does not concern me overmuch. (That 5.5% assumes that every Bolt fired hits, even! I think we need not concern ourselves with bolts of change.)

 

A full unit of six Slaanesh fiends has a mere 13.9% chance to immobilize a mobile raider, virtually identical to the odds of a DP harming a raider. Again, not too scary.

 

A soul grinder's Tongue has a mere 13.9% chance of immobilizing or destroying a raider. Not scary.

 

A soul grinder's Phlegm has a pathetic 2.8% chance of immobilizing a raider, and that assumes a direct hit by the template. Not worth worrying about.

 

And that's the best that Chaos Daemons can hope to do against AV 14. If that isn't practically ensuring an "automatic win", I don't know what is. Because, of course, you're not going to entirely ignore the DPs, fiends, or Tongue grinders. Since they are the biggest "threat" to a mech DH army, you will eliminate them immediately and without too much difficulty. After all, there are no credible threats against land raiders outside of those three units, so you don't even bother to target them ... with anything. And then you can wipe out the rest of the daemons army at your leisure, because they have less than no hope whatsoever of stopping two or three land raider crusaders.

 

The daemons army arrives piecemeal and has very limited ability to hurt your assets. There is nothing difficult to understand about prioritizing those very few -- if rather pathetic -- threats and wiping them out one at a time as they arrive in convenient bite-size chunks for you to digest. The rest of the game is clean-up duty.

[jeffersonian000]

I play pure GK with a pretty good win record, with the occasional Inquisitorial unit to add a bit of depth to my game. What I'm advising is that tooling you armies out just to fight daemons is only a good idea if you know you are playing against daemons. If you happen to be playing against Chaos Space Marines, you've just wasted some points.

 

Personally, I only field an all-comers army which does quite well versus Codex Daemons, not so well against Ork horde armies (but I'm working on it). My good track record probably has more to do with embracing the limits of our codex rather than trying to figure out ways around problems, but that's more of a philisophical dscussion.

 

What I'm trying to make the OP aware of is that he/she should be focus on playing smart rather than relying on war gear. Our guys do well against Codex Daemons, other armies do better.

 

SJ

[DinoDoc]

You've almost talked me into retooling my DH army from being pure GK. I just have one last question, How necessary is the IQ?

I think they're vital. It's the only way we have to deal with deep-striking melta threats. Without the mystics, all an opponent has to do is drop in a few MM dreads, melta-gunning tacticals, melta-gunning sterguard, or MM speeders and we would be severely hamstrung. The mystics give you a buffer zone that makes it dangerous for the opponent to drop in those meltas and slag our armour before we've had a chance to apply them.

 

With the mystics, you'll have your choice of melta weapons and/or anything else that would be suitable for scraping the offending deep-striker(s) off before they get to do anything to you.

 

Without the mystics, you'd have to create walls of infantry and/or rhinos around the raiders to protect them and then deal with the unavoidable losses that would accrue when a heavy flamer and/or melta weapon drops in and slags its initial target, even if it isn't one of your raiders. Armies like Tau can afford to sacrifice Kroot or Piranhas to such noble causes because by doing so they will have created a trap that immediately pounces on enemy units that expose themselves that way.

 

The lists I posted have a decent amount of redundancy and ability to sacrifice, but it's limited. We are still relatively pricey, and while sacrifices will have to be made in most games, we can't do so willy-nilly. Inquisitors help mitigate a significant amount of that risk.

Have I been going about this all wrong? Does the mystic ability actually work while he and his superior are still in the rhino?

[number6]

@Jeffersonian000: While I built the example lists with a pair of land raiders in response to the jeske's challenge, I built them NOT to be tooled specifically against daemons. (Take plasma instead of meltas to do that.) As I've maintained throughout, those armies are all-comer's forces. The armies I used to run -- well, as I said, still run most of the time :P -- aren't nearly as competitive as the mech DH lists are in 5th edition.

 

All the reasons I mention that makes them so potent against Daemons is also mostly true against other armies that struggle against fully mechanized forces, including Orks and Tyranids. Playing fully mechanized around a core of a pair of DH LRCs -- the best AV 14 platform in the game today -- gives you an inherent huge advantage against several common armies and helps level the playing field against other fully mechanized foes.

 

Recall that mechanized armies have traditionally been the bane of DH armies. That aspect only got worse in 5th edition with the change in vehicular damage. There is a reason everybody spams melta weapons in their armies these days, you know. ;) And melta weapon spam also happens to do a good number on infantry, so why wouldn't the opposition wise up to 5th edition and do this? (I.e., mech up and go heavy on meltas.) They are in my neck of the woods, and it requires a change in approach. It turns out that the DH can do this reasonably effectively.

 

@DinoDoc: Yes, mystics still work while they're in a Rhino. And you get to measure from the hull. :D

[Spacefrisian]

I would like to see some guy putting 3 Landraider in a tourney list. (Makes me almost feel guilty for having so many Lances). Though it can be dealt with if one plays it right eg. Puting an MC on each side, might not result in the landraider being gone. But either way next round that landraider will always get a auto hit on it.

[Grand Master Iapetus]

Couple of observations:

 

- If it's a "friendly" game, and the Daemon player is not willing to classify all units in his codex as Daemons, I break out sanctuary or walk away...

 

- I do think in a 2 or 3 LR list you do need at least 1 GHLR, and I think that the GHLR got a big boost in 5e through the FAQ'd POTMS. However - very different application from the move 6+ every turn described above. I have found the LRCs anti armor to be unreliable. A single melta that is non twin linked has been OK, but not as reliable as I would like to see, plus our ACs aren't rending...

 

- number6 - the lists you posted are pretty darn close to what I have started to move to a balanced all comers (ISTs in rhinos / GKTs), and here I was thinking you were a pure water guy :D Are you saying you have shifted to a more IST / Melta approach generally due to mech? I also fit a callidus in usually...

 

Edit:

 

And one more I forgot. With the mystics taking off some early wounds & mech giving some additional protection, I have found that with the GHLR against a balanced Daemon List you can usually focus fire for a couple of turns against the big baddies before they can get a charge and ignore or maneuver to avoid the little guys early on. Usually wears them down enough to position that LRC with the termies to charge in and administer the coup de grace for the big ones...

[revnow]

@GM Iapateus: ISTs in Rhinos actually support a water style of play in the 5th Edition environment. ;) They add a degree of diversity and versatility to the army that's critical in 5th Edition. They are absolutely reactive in the way they should be played. They provide Daemonhunters with additional meltas/flamers, mobile terrain and a greater number of scoring units. Fully mechanized scoring units no less. You need to treat the Rhino and ISTs as a single entity. It's not a squad of ISTs in a Rhino. It's an AV11 scoring unit that can shoot one melta/flamer out the top if it's moved <6". The fact that ISTs appear when that little 120 pt monstrosity dies is just an added bonus of the unit. Not pure GK, but very water style indeed. And, an excellent option for players who will have a hard time fielding 3 Raiders for whatever reason (metagame, models, dislike of the tactic, sportsmanship environment, etc. . .).

 

The above is a little off topic, but they work great against Daemons because Daemons generally rely on assault to kill vehicles and Rhinos have the same bottleneck as Raiders, the potential to force 6s to hit. They can screen the Raiders or support them, target a 'Grinder or a squad of Daemonettes/Bloodletters. They're a very versatile and cheap little unit.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

And that's the best that Chaos Daemons can hope to do against AV 14.

 

Wrong. A Bloodthirster with Unholy Might has, if my math isn't terribly off, approximately a 36.5% chance of immobilizing or destroying a Land Raider. Much scarier.

[revnow]

Which is almost identical (a bit higher actually) than the chance of a single BS4 meltagun to kill or immobilize a Land Raider. Its the equivalent of going into battle against dual raider armies with a single meltagun, a 250 point meltagun. Against Raiders a bloodthirster is outclassed by a 70 point IST squad, and way outclassed by a 100 point veteran squad, that's scary. All a Daemonhunter player needs to do is maneuver until the 'Thirster is out of position while takinga wound or two off of it. Then the Sacred Incense Grimoire GKTs pop out and waste the big ugly. This is all if the Thirster manages to come in, not mishap, and not deepstrike out of position so that it gets wiped on the first turn.

 

We're not saying that there are no ways for Daemons to kill Raiders, they're just few, far between and insanely expensive for what they can pull off. Daemonhunters can do it better and cheaper than Daemons in every phase of the game.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

Which is almost identical (a bit higher actually) than the chance of a single BS4 meltagun to kill or immobilize a Land Raider. Its the equivalent of going into battle against dual raider armies with a single meltagun, a 250 point meltagun. Against Raiders a bloodthirster is outclassed by a 70 point IST squad, and way outclassed by a 100 point veteran squad, that's scary. All a Daemonhunter player needs to do is maneuver until the 'Thirster is out of position while takinga wound or two off of it. Then the Sacred Incense Grimoire GKTs pop out and waste the big ugly. This is all if the Thirster manages to come in, not mishap, and not deepstrike out of position so that it gets wiped on the first turn.

 

We're not saying that there are no ways for Daemons to kill Raiders, they're just few, far between and insanely expensive for what they can pull off. Daemonhunters can do it better and cheaper than Daemons in every phase of the game.

 

And I'm not saying a Bloodthirster is an efficient use of points to butcher Land Raiders, I was pointing out that Daemons have units that are better at tank busting than Daemon Princes with ~13.5% chance of doing so.

[revnow]

Fair enough.

[number6]

- number6 - the lists you posted are pretty darn close to what I have started to move to a balanced all comers (ISTs in rhinos / GKTs), and here I was thinking you were a pure water guy ;) Are you saying you have shifted to a more IST / Melta approach generally due to mech? I also fit a callidus in usually...

Heh. Appearances can be deceiving! B) To be honest, I only ever rarely fielded a purely water army. I've always liked Inquisitors, assassins, Seraphim, and GK dreads. The RTT I attended several months ago was one of the few times that I have. It worked very well (won all my games and missed 1st overall by just 2 painting points), but I am convinced after having several more months under my belt that the army lists I proposed earlier (I've played variants of them) are actually considerably stronger.

 

Mech is simply the single most potent army build under the current rules set. I don't think there's any denying it. Armies that cannot play mech (e.g., Daemons, Tyranids) cannot reliably beat fully mechanized enemies. And armies that cannot bring melta or other forms of reliable anti-armour (e.g., Orks) are also behind the 8-ball. Furthermore, mech is a generally strong build against any other army codex that exists. People are starting to realize this, and army lists and tactics are starting to adapt to this reality as the realization spreads. Before long, I bet the pure GK lists of my early 4th edition days will have to be shelved if I want to play competitively with the DH.

 

@I AM THE AWESOME: I will acknowledge that a bloodthirster's odds of stopping a raider are significant enough to be notable and "worrisome". But, as revnow noted, there are only so many such beasts a Daemons army can field, and only at a significant cost, too. Seeing as every other unit in the Daemons army is not a true credible threat against a raider, what do you think will be the primary focus of the entire DH army when a bloodthirster shows up? ;)

[revnow]

Nurglings! No seriously, they're just such ugly and offensive little monsters!

 

Sorry, bad attempt at 40k humor.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

Well, hey, now people know what to be shooting at!

[skarn]

Number 6, your 1500 list is 10 points over, and like most LR heavy lists, very vulnerable to certain builds (like DE, melta or landspeeder heavy marines etc). I run a 2 lr list as well and much prefer the GH LR personally. I do like the inq you use though, and would think a callidus would complement the list nicely. ;)

[number6]

Took me a bit, skarn, but then I realized the issue was I charged only 10 pts for the GKT incinerators. All lists adjusted to account for that. Thanks for the catch!

 

I would actually rate skimmer-spam Dark Eldar -- with or without a Webway Portal -- as one of the strongest 2 or 3 army builds in existence. In sure hands, there's often very little an opponent can do. Not even the new IG can Alpha Strike as effectively as DE have always been able to do.

 

Land speeder heavy marines can be tough, but they're nowhere close to the threat of DE. The inquisitors discourage deep striking, and otherwise there's enough firepower to down speeders pretty quickly. It's precisely to help combat that type of army that the PAGK mini-purgation squad is present, for example. Plus it's OK to use IST units to wipe out speeders if that's where most of the melta weapons in the opposing army are. Infantry-carried meltas should be taken out by the GKTs or, if you have the time, just shot off the board once their transports are popped.

[skarn]

Took me a bit, skarn, but then I realized the issue was I charged only 10 pts for the GKT incinerators. All lists adjusted to account for that. Thanks for the catch!

 

I would actually rate skimmer-spam Dark Eldar -- with or without a Webway Portal -- as one of the strongest 2 or 3 army builds in existence. In sure hands, there's often very little an opponent can do. Not even the new IG can Alpha Strike as effectively as DE have always been able to do.

 

Land speeder heavy marines can be tough, but they're nowhere close to the threat of DE. The inquisitors discourage deep striking, and otherwise there's enough firepower to down speeders pretty quickly. It's precisely to help combat that type of army that the PAGK mini-purgation squad is present, for example. Plus it's OK to use IST units to wipe out speeders if that's where most of the melta weapons in the opposing army are. Infantry-carried meltas should be taken out by the GKTs or, if you have the time, just shot off the board once their transports are popped.

I'm liking your list more and more 6, especially the synergy of the units. I personally might consider trading one of the GKT for PAGK, not as good against MEQ, but scoring and just as good against GEQ. And maybe trade a LRC for a GH and one IST unit's meltaguns for plasmaguns? But your way is just as good.

 

I'm wondering though, what would be your take on pure GK? At the moment I run:

 

GM with sacred incense, 4 terminator retinue (1 incinerator, 2 x TH&SS).

 

5 PAGK with 1 x psycannon, justicar has meltabombs.

 

5 PAGK with 1 x psycannon, justicar has meltabombs.

 

9 Teleport PAGK with 2 incinerators.

 

GH Landraider with extra armour & smoke.

 

GH Landraider with extra armour & smoke.

 

Which is 1500 on the dot. Their are usually 2 plans; to put the FA PAGK in one LR and the GKT in the other and isolate threats and destroy them, or to put the 2 5 man units in the LR and teleport in with the other 2 units and try cause as much damage as possible (as well as distract attention away from the LR). I chose a GM primarily for nob biker lists: he can kill off the warboss which drastically helps out.

So far its tended to work really well (even against nob bikers), except against a couple of specific builds (like the landspeeder heavy marines and DE I mentioned).

[number6]

Speaking in general terms, even though you can technically "mech up" a pure GK list, such an army does suffer from some notable limitations. Against certain relatively common army builds and enemy tactics, these shortcomings can be quite serious.

 

Firstly, without an Inquisitor/mystic unit, you have no deep-strike defense. Enemies with just a couple of meltas in drop pods or speeders can ruin your day in a hurry. The longer range of the godhammer lascannons won't help you in these situations.

 

Secondly, you don't have any way to provide mobile cover for your raiders. You're opportunity to obtain cover saves will be much more limited, increasing the risk that enemy fire can stop your precious armour.

 

Which leads to the 3rd point. In a pure GK army, you really must exchange any LRCs you might otherwise prefer for normal GHLRs because you need the longer range to hopefully prevent mechanized foes from closing with their own meltas. The problem is that lascannons aren't as reliable as meltas. The reason you don't see many lascannons in 5th edition armies is because it's more efficient in both points and effectiveness to just take several smaller units with meltas and mount 'em all up. Just spam the board and rely on statistics and smart tactical play to get your survivors into range and slag your opponent. Since you can't do that with a pure GK army, you'll need to keep your raiders relatively slow at no more than 6" a turn and hope for the best with your 4 lascannon shots per turn.

 

Which leads to the 4th point. To make GHLRs work, you can't actually take advantage of the superior speed the vehicle would otherwise allow you. You have to shoot those godhammers to survive! Opponents will generally be faster than you because they don't need to shoot at range and will simply catch you within a turn or two ... unless you get lucky with those lascannon shots.

 

The army lists I posted suffer from none of those limitations, which is why they are stronger, superior all-comer's lists. I think exchanging the Elite GKTs for a unit of PAGKs instead can be worthwhile, at the relatively low points level of 1500 pts. In bigger games, though, I'd definitely prefer the GKTs instead. They synergize better with the overall tactical approach of the army.

 

Regarding your proposed army list in particular, it suffers from all the limitations I just mentioned. Furthermore, it doesn't really have any means to get your scoring units onto objectives unless you use the raiders for that. And since you pretty much have to do that, you must deep strike your other elements, and that's not necessarily a good idea. As I've mentioned in passing several times, potent 5th edition armies are going to be mechanized and fast. When you drop, they have plenty of capability to focus fire on what has just arrived and eliminate it before you get to use it. Which is to say, they can take you apart piecmeal. Even if they have somewhat limited capability to tackle your raiders (e.g., because you're playing against Daemons), the army you present doesn't have any threat the Daemons can't easily handle outside of them. They would actually be able to ignore your raiders (GHLRs don't really put out enough firepower to be seriously troublesome) in favor of taking the real teeth out of your army as they show up and then just contesting objectives your raiders are sitting on, claiming one more for the win. Or waiting for you to try and actually win the game by dropping your Troops out so you can contest with the raiders and then wiping those Troops out with ease because they are so very small and squishy.

[Tokunator]

Maybe I've missed something, but why did nobody mention that charging Daemons without Assault Grenades count as Initiative 1 against Grey Knights, as they have to take a difficult terrain test to charge them?