Hunting daemons...

[Yuanti]

I'm going to throw out some math hammer numbers to compare the single melta on the LRC vs the GHLR. If these are wrong, let me know, but this it what it looks like to me:

 

Melta (1 shot in 1/2 range)

AV14, P(N) 51.9%, P(W) 21.0%, P(S) 27.2%

AV13, P(N) 44.5%, P(W) 25.3%, P(S) 30.3%

AV12, P(N) 38.9%, P(W) 28.7%, P(S) 32.4%

AV11, P(N) 35.2%, P(W) 31.2%, P(S) 33.6%

 

TLLC (1 shot)

AV14, P(N) 77.8%, P(W) 4.94%, P(S) 17.3%

AV13, P(N) 61.1%, P(W) 9.88%, P(S) 29.0%

AV12, P(N) 44.4%, P(W) 14.8%, P(S) 40.7%

AV11, P(N) 27.8%, P(W) 19.8%, P(S) 52.5%

 

TLLC (2 shots)

AV14, P(N) 45.7%, P(W) 9.63%, P(S) 44.7%

AV13, P(N) 26.2%, P(W) 18.8%, P(S) 55.0%

AV12, P(N) 12.4%, P(W) 27.4%, P(S) 60.2%

AV11, P(N) 4.01%, P(W) 35.6%, P(S) 60.4%

 

Where P(N) is the probability of missing combined with not penetrating the armor (i.e. doing nothing), P(W) is the probability of wrecking (popping) the tank, and P(S) is the probability of stunning/removing a weapon (i.e. doing something).

 

The melta numbers include the chance to wreck on a glance as well.

 

I think the interpretation (or conclusion) that each person comes to with these numbers and which weapon is best for them is heavily reliant on their playgroup. I think it shows the Melta is the hotness for 14 AV (and edges out 2 TLLC a bit for 13AV). I have numbers for "full range Melta" but frankly, if you have a melta you should do everything in your power to get in the sweet 1/2 range because that is where Melta rules. It almost isn't even worth shooting at full range.

 

EDIT: messed up the numbers, forgot to include the "AP 1" factor for the Melta.

[jeffersonian000]

Run the numbers on Lascannon shots at 24+ inches versus Melta weapons at the same range bracket, and see why Lascannons are still useful.

 

SJ

[GTang]

DH don't have to win against Daemons all the time. They just have to do better than IG or SM. Do they? They have all that anti-inv save equipment, an ability to shoot at deep strikers coming in, and GK are pretty good assault troops. Daemons are only half going to be on the board in the first turn or so. How does that compare?

[Wolf's Bane]

@DinoDoc: Yes, mystics still work while they're in a Rhino. And you get to measure from the hull. :ph34r:

 

Hi number6.

 

I have one question about using two mystics. Imagine you are using the mytics to make the Land Raider near to them to fire against that Greater Daemon that just has appeared in the right side of the Land Raider.

 

In that "free" fire turn, ¿may be you able to turn the Land Raider just to fire with both Laser-Cannons? or in the other way, ju can't touch the Land Raider so you have to fire with only one Laser Cannon?

 

The field should be as this

 

 

 

GD LR

 

IQ+Mysctic

 

Thanks.

[Wolf's Bane]

The RTT I attended several months ago was one of the few times that I have. It worked very well (won all my games and missed 1st overall by just 2 painting points), but I am convinced after having several more months under my belt that the army lists I proposed earlier (I've played variants of them) are actually considerably stronger.

 

Would you share us your RTT list?

 

Thanks!!

 

I'm trying to make a tournament list, almoust pure GK, this is what I have right now

 

HQ: BC (psycocannon + sacred incense) + 4 GKT retinue (1 TH/SS + 1 psycocannon)

Troops: 8 PAGK (1 incinerator) and 6 PACK(2 psycocannon)

Elites: 1 Inq+incinerator + retinue: 2 mystics + 3 veteran with 3 melta-gun. They are mounted in a Quimera (multilaser + HB hull)

HS: 1 Dread (TLC+ML), 1 Dread(Plasma Cannon + Heavy Flamer), 1 GKLR

 

What do you think about this list?

 

 

 

PD: Edit added my list

[Yuanti]

Just click on Number6's profile and he has a topic that he started where he talks about his list and some of the batreps.

[Wolf's Bane]

Just click on Number6's profile and he has a topic that he started where he talks about his list and some of the batreps.

 

I will. Thanks.

[skarn]

number6,

 

Just another question on your list if you don't mind mate. As DH Rhinos only have 1 firing point, why do you use 2 special weapon squads? Do you disembark your IST to take down enemy armour?

[number6]

number6,

 

Just another question on your list if you don't mind mate. As DH Rhinos only have 1 firing point, why do you use 2 special weapon squads? Do you disembark your IST to take down enemy armour?

I try never to disembark unless forced to, or unless I am reasonably confident that I can finish off something key by jumping out and not be subject to getting shot or assaulted off the table by leaving my ride. There are occasions where you have to risk sacrificing a unit of ISTs to pop some armour, however, and you'll really need that melta then. If you've got Vulkan and a retinue of TH/SS termies in a raider bearing down on you, you can bet it's worthwhile to block the raider with the rhino, disembark, and hope to slag the raider with those meltas. Sure, the ISTs will be chomped, but you've just stranded the termies and can take care of them at your leisure. The 2nd special weapon is for just such occurrences. It's not like it costs that much.

 

However, because of the single firing point issue, there is a valid argument to be made that the 2nd special weapon in the unit be a flamer -- or possibly a plasma -- instead of a melta. Sometimes, that will be more useful to you, especially if you've done a good job of popping all the armour you need to worry about already. However, I would still normally prefer the 2nd melta as enemy mech is still the most dangerous type of army to face, and meltas are still great against infantry. Insta-killing MEQs and putting wounds on MCs is nothing to sneeze at. Flamers aren't so hot against those targets, either (though plasma might be OK).

 

@Wolf's Bane: I've split your question off to another topic.

[number6]

A thought has occurred to me about the Inquisitor units in Rhinos that I have in my army lists.

 

Instead of vet guardsmen with melta guns, I should aim for a single multi-melta servitor, and vet guardsmen after only as points allow. The MM makes for a much better bunker in the midfield than melta guns. ISTs can take care of mobile tank hunting.

[skarn]

With your 1500 point list you could have each IST unit have 1 meltagun, saving you 40 points. You could then put a multimelta servitor in your Inquisitor's retinue and have enough left over to put the extra armour on your 3rd IST squad's rhino.

 

Your list has inspired me to come up with a similar list of my own:

 

Elite Inquisitor w/destroy daemon, psychic hood, ccw, bp. Retinue of 2 mystics, 1 heirophant.

Rhino w/ EA, smoke.

 

5 IST w/2 meltaguns.

Rhino w/ EA, smoke.

 

5 IST w/2 meltaguns.

Rhino w/ EA, smoke.

 

5 IST w/2 plasmaguns.

Rhino w/ EA, smoke.

 

Brother Captain w/ sacred incense. Retinue of 4 terminators with 2 TH&SS, 1 incinerator.

 

6 Grey Knights w/ 2 incinerators.

 

Godhammer Landraider w/ EA, smoke.

 

Crusader Landraider w/ EA, smoke.

 

1500 exactly.

 

Slight difference with your list, mostly with the Inquisitor. Destroy Daemon is a fluff concession since he's my =][= character. I tend to play CSM and Eldar a lot, so the psychic hood (even at Ld9) comes in very handy. The PAGK aren't going to be as powerful as your GKT squad, but they are scoring, and the 2 incinerators even it up against non-MEQ armies. I decided on 1 Godhammer and 1 Crusader to combat Monoliths and other LR lists. I like the flexibility of having both hurricane bolters and lascannons.

[Grand Master Iapetus]

A thought has occurred to me about the Inquisitor units in Rhinos that I have in my army lists.

 

Instead of vet guardsmen with melta guns, I should aim for a single multi-melta servitor, and vet guardsmen after only as points allow. The MM makes for a much better bunker in the midfield than melta guns. ISTs can take care of mobile tank hunting.

 

But if you don't take the vet guardsman with a melta, you lose the ability to shoot anything meaningful at all if you have to move the rhino since the MM is a heavy weapon.

[number6]

But if you don't take the vet guardsman with a melta, you lose the ability to shoot anything meaningful at all if you have to move the rhino since the MM is a heavy weapon.

Park it midfield and own it. A MM inside a Rhino is a bunker unit. Works especially well if you have two inquisitors doing that. The double set of double mystics will keep anything from dropping too too close, and the enemy won't be wanting to enter the MM death zone you've set up.

 

And you've got flanking ISTs and, nothing too special, just a pair of GK LRCs with 5-6 GKTs inside. You can ignore those, too.

 

:D

[Thaelion Hexis]

Instead of vet guardsmen with melta guns, I should aim for a single multi-melta servitor, and vet guardsmen after only as points allow. The MM makes for a much better bunker in the midfield than melta guns. ISTs can take care of mobile tank hunting

 

I use two Multi Melta servitors and a Melta Veteran. Move once, pop smoke, following turns they are a threat to armour or even just kill a couple of marines. I do keep the option of switching the Melta Vet for a Plasma Gun, if I think I will need the versatility. It is a little costly, yet unassuming.

[Gentlemanloser]

Is our Rhino's single fire point the Top Hatch? (In which case if a Servitor is firing from it, our Rhinos count as open topped. :P )

 

If so, I seem to recall something about multiple people able to fire from the Top Hatch, but that might have been a 4th edition thing. :/

 

Our Codex (under Dedicated Transports) still gives our Rhinos Top Hatches, maybe that's in addition to our single Fire Point?

[number6]

The fire point is the top hatch. And yes, firing out the top makes it count as open-topped. However, the lists I posted are spamming the table with armour. You should be shoving lots of threats down your opponent's throat, of which your Inquisitor/MM bunker is just one (or two).

[Gentlemanloser]

Number6, you're converting me to the love of MM Servitors. :) They helped me win my second PS match yesterday (First was attacking the Eldar, with literally no open space on the board and Drop Zone Denial. I lost that one badly...).

 

But I'm sure there was something about multiple people able to fire out of the Top Hatch (or Open Topped vehicles?). Was this just a 4th thing? Maybe it never existed! LoL!

 

But if you can, it would make multiple MM Servitors (Or Melta/Plasma Acolytes, maybe even an P Cannon Servitor!) in an Inquisitors Retinue with a Rhino much more attactive! ;)

 

Edit;

 

Found it!

 

OK, this might be more Old Codex issues. ;) Newer Rhinos don't have the Open Topped rule (allowing two people to fire from it's top hatch), while we still do, if any occupant has worse than 3+ save when the top hatch is used as a fire point.

 

The Main Book says that unless the entry changes this, only one person may fire from a fire point, which might also be a top hatch.

 

All well and good.

 

But later on it says that for Open Topped vehicles, all passengers can fire.

 

And if we use the Top Hatch with ours (with worse the 3+ save), our Rhinos count as Open Topped. Therefore, that should allow everyone in our Rhinos to fire from them. ;)

 

Old codex strikes again! If we suffer the drawback of open topped (for damage results), we should also sffuer the Open Topped benefits as well. ;)

[number6]

Well... I think it's a RAW stretch to say that using the fire point will allow everyone inside to fire. You have a point, but ... that is a rules lawyerly trick to bend it around like that. Perhaps not technically illegal, but also quite clearly against the intention and spirit of the rules.

 

I also don't think it's necessary, either. ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

I just don't feel we should suffer the negatives of an old rule, purely becuase our Codex hasn't been updated, without gaining any benefits that should go hand in hand.

 

We have to take the damage penalty, while newer ruled Rhinos don't (plus they get an extra firer anyway...). So why not the benefit. ;)

 

I agree it's not really needed, but three MM Servitors in a Rhino! ;)

[number6]

One could counter that we shouldn't get the benefit of our superior force weapons, land raider crusaders, and smoke launchers just because GW hasn't seen fit to update our old codex. It cuts both ways.

[Justicar Valius]

Ah yes the age old enemy of daemonhunters, Mathhammer. The key i think would be to pick your fights. But like everything i think it will probably be wrong!

 

Now the only way to help yourself is to make mathammer work for you (I would think! :D ). That means asses the danger of any enemy units at that time and blow the most dangerous one to bits. This can be hard to do But hopefully you should be able to prevent deep striking daemons landing in the right place.

 

Now i happen to know Eldar can slaughter Daemons as I have seen it with my own eyes and i think same things will happen

 

I'll finish the post later gotta go now but will be quick

[Gentlemanloser]

One could counter that we shouldn't get the benefit of our superior force weapons, land raider crusaders, and smoke launchers just because GW hasn't seen fit to update our old codex. It cuts both ways.

 

That's not quite the same though... While they are all old codex changes for the better, we also get other old codex negatives. Banishment, Emperors Tarot, Assault Cannons, etc. All single changes to specific things.

 

But, our Rhino's rules have both a positive, and a negative to the single 'Open Topped' rule. On one hand, it makes us take increased Damage Roll for lower than 3+ saves in it, so it should also go the whole hog, and give us the ability to fire with everyone inside. Applying only the increased damage would be just penalising ourselves for the sake of an old codex. I feel we're justified in taking the whole ruling, and getting the good with the bad.

 

But as you say, it's not a big deal really. ;)

 

(And thanks again for helping me realise the usefulness of MM Servitors in Rhinos! :o )

[Narthecium]

I wasn't calling the three man squad of flamers cheap or weak yesterday when they did a deepstrike next to my GKT squad and killed three of them right off the bat (and would've been more but I did insanely well on my invuln saves). I smacked the absolute tar out of them in my turn, however they more than made up their points.

[krewl]

Flamers are far from weak, they are one of the better units in a deamon list because they are great against any unit with a high normal save.

I fear flamers because of that, so they are always on my priority list to kill before anything dismounts.

 

It's just that when you mech up you have no fear of them as they can just inflict glancing hits on your transports.

Which is useless against GKLRC's as they can still move and unload deadly cargo, or something nearby will whipe the flamers because they are close to be able to flame.

[Gibious]

Woah! Necroing.

 

They are weak because they normaly come in 3's which can be sent back to the warp with minimal shooting the turn they arrive.

 

-Gib-