Tips on fighting CSM's?

[The Black Watch]

I've played 2 games with my SM's against a CSM army (500pts and 1000pts) and both times I've been completely wiped out by turn 5 (yes, every single unit). I would appreciate any advice on fighting CSM's and what the best things are to put in my list.

 

My main point of despair is how useless Tactical Squads seem to be. Compared to standard CSM's they get one less attack, lower leadership and they cost MORE?! Wha? And they get better weapon choices.

 

I've been trying to fit AP3 weapons in but essentially he's so good in CC if he gets close to me I'm finished. Unless I can kill most of his force with shooting in the first 2 turns he's inevitably going to win. Am I missing something? I have had some bad luck tbh.

 

Thanks.

[Hellios]

I've played 2 games with my SM's against a CSM army (500pts and 1000pts) and both times I've been completely wiped out by turn 5 (yes, every single unit). I would appreciate any advice on fighting CSM's and what the best things are to put in my list.

 

My main point of despair is how useless Tactical Squads seem to be. Compared to standard CSM's they get one less attack, lower leadership and they cost MORE?! Wha? And they get better weapon choices.

 

I've been trying to fit AP3 weapons in but essentially he's so good in CC if he gets close to me I'm finished. Unless I can kill most of his force with shooting in the first 2 turns he's inevitably going to win. Am I missing something? I have had some bad luck tbh.

 

Thanks.

 

What does he run?

 

As for standard CSMs I would try and hit him in CC with multiple units engaging one of his. Because if he breaks and you chase him down he is wiped out :D unlike loyalist marines who will use "And They Shall Know No Fear"

 

How much Anti-tank has he got? you could mechanise yourself or maybe take dreadnought support in CC. If he has a champion with a powerfist get tactical marines in base to base with the champion and the dreadnought elsewhere and watch the dreadnought smush em.

 

The problem is without knowing what you use in your army (and how) and the same with his army its hard to say whats going wrong. If he foot slogs his force I would try mechanizing yours for a start.

 

If he runs a hoard of men and not to many things capable of taking out a Land Raider then a Redeemer may be worth a luck but its a lot of eggs in one AV14 basket.

[The Black Watch]

In our last encounter I had:

 

Captain, Thunder Hammer

10 Tactical, ML, Flamer

5 Scouts, Snipers

10 Assault, 3 Plasma Pistols, Power Sword

5 Devastators, 2 Lascannon, 1 MM, 1 ML

1 Dreadnought, AC, DCCW, SB

1 Land Speeder, 2 HB's

 

He had:

1 Chaos Lord, Lightning Claws

10 CSMs, Powerfist, Meltagun, Flamer, Rhino

10 CSMs, Powerfist, Meltagun, Flamer, Rhino

8 Bezerkers, Rhino

1 Daemon Prince, (with that Leash power - nasty!)

 

Popped his Bezerker/Chaos Lord's Rhino and wiped out 6 Bezerkers and also his DP but other than that I made little account for myself.

 

I don't like tactical squads because they seem weak, but I need them for scoring obv.

[Hellios]

Ok for example (I think this is about 1k points), now I'm not saying this is the best list around but to give you ideas.

 

I notice his list is pretty close range (I'm assuming the DP has no wings)

 

Pedro Kantor count as he will give units in 12 + 1 attack (help with the chaos having more attacks and makes you stubborn so less likely to run away)

 

for troops

 

2 units of 5 scouts I figure you used thes to shoot the DP and at the back of the board they should start off out of range of the lash power :no:, may also be able to hold objectives in your own area.

 

Then a unit of 9 sternguard (you can use normal tacts just inform your opponent beforehand) these will be with Kantor and in a rhino (while in the rhino lash won't work on you)

 

5 x sternguard in rhino with a lascannon and plasmacannon these fire from the stationary rhino so they can't be lashed popping the rhino and maybe helping kill the prince, then the plasma is good at killing CSM units on foot.

 

Dreadnought with plasma cannon (can hurt rhino or prince if you wish and good at killing marines on foot, cannot be lashed)

 

Also with kantor these 2 units can capture objectives :D

 

I then had spare points so i decided to put a vindicator in because they scare the bejeezus out of a lot of people and kill everything, so your friend may want to start getting long range anti-tank ;)

 

you now have a few points spare for some upgrades as well :D

 

So yer sit back out of lash range with the scouts and kill his dp, use the shooty small sternguard to fire out of the rhino with the lascannon and plasma cannon and kill the rhino dreanought can then shoot whatever you like, the vindicator can also do that (as long as things are in range, and with the last list he used you should be safe until he is within 12 and not in super trouble until he is within 6/CC. You can also deploy your vindicator to try and make him deploy on the otherside of the board where you may have better LOS for your other units.

 

With the big sternguard unit I would keep that back along with the other one or supporting the dread/vindicator.

 

Once the DP is down both sternguard units are free to zoom around (although you might want to keep the small one in fire support) drive up to an enemy unit and rapidfire them with vengeance rounds (AP3 gets hot, as long as they are not in cover), if the DP gets near you and you have to kill it jump out and rapidfire it with hellfire rounds (wound on a 2+)

 

So basically kill the DP and rhino first (which i think you have already picked up as it slows down his army). Then its down to which unit you think is the biggest threat as you are far more mobile than him (with the rhinos and vindicator) you can try and bring more firepower onto a small part of his army destroying it and moving onto the next.

[Vel'Cona]

Well, first I'll take some time to review your list. For the most part I like what I see, a good mix of fast strike elements and some combat units. You managed to get a good bit of stuff in for 1k, so you're not hurting for numbers.

 

The first thing I would do is rotate your Captain to a different build. TH is a huge waste of I5, his primary strength in CC, so I would switch that out for a Relic Blade or the more cost effective Lightning Claw(s). He could also use a SS or Artificer Armor to increase survivability against Chaos characters. Also, consider a JP so he can hang with the Assault Marines; I've found these guys really benefit from having an attached character to increase their killyness factor (which is sub-optimal without an IC). On that tack, you could consider a vanilla Libby or Chappy with JP to go with them; these characters add a lot of support options to the unit that are tailor-made to beat up on other MEQ players (Avenger and Might powers for the Libby, Chaplain's rerolls on charge).

 

If you don't like getting pinned down by Chaos' more combat effective units, consider a transport for your Tactical Marines. I consider this mandatory in all my lists, and find that a simple 35 point Rhino (or 40 point RB) serves as an awesome force multiplier for the humble Tactical Squad. If you notice, your friend's squads are all in transports, and I'll bet dollars to donuts he puts Wings on his DP too. Another nice side effect of having your dudes in transports is they can't be targetted by Lash until they get out, at which point they should be in position to attack anyway. (A Libby also comes into play here, with his Psychic Hood, though you shouldn't always bet on it)

 

Also, you may want to upgrade your Tac Sergeant with some form of special CCW, such as a PW or PF. This can help to fend off assaults (or at least do damage) when a tooled up squad or MC comes calling. In particular I highly recommend PF in this role. A MG or PG in your squad could also assist in ignoring Chaos Marine's hard armor saves.

 

Devs are a pretty gross point sink in 1k. Lots of players swear by them, but the amount you've probably put into them could buy you another Tac Squad to snag objectives, or a Dakkapred or TFC to help thin the Chaos ranks. A Dakkapred in particular is a very cost effective choice that is reasonably durable and has the capability to take out transports and deal wounds to squads with concentrated fire.

 

That's quite a bit to chew on to start with, but list building is probably 55% of the gameplay in WH40k so it needs to be a very carefully considered thing. As far as tactics are concerned, your opponent has the right build with a fast C:CSM army; plenty of transported Marines, and a block of nasty Berzerkers to launch a straightforward attack. His DP can help to draw fire from his transports, then Lash units into range for his initial rapid fire disembark. After that it's just a matter of mopping up in CC. To counter this strategy, taking out the transports is key. While the DP is scary and can kill quite a few models a turn, tarpitting him with a Tac Squad (or Dreadnought) can help keep him busy (this is where Power Fists can come in handy). I would try to keep your character away from the DP, and use him to do damage in CC with his Assault Squad, where this unit can actually beat anything short of the Berzerkers. For those maniacs, try to pop their transport early and whittle them down with Plasma and ML fire. Your Dread is a great choice to engage them in close, provided he doesn't get Melta'd down. Oh, and if you were to give your LS a MM, it would make a great transport hunter (hint hint).

[waaanial00]

Well I have spent the last 10 mintues building a better list for you. Not all of the units you will have but I will at least explain why each of the elements are in there:

 

HQ

 

Librarian

> Null Zone, Avenger

 

A nice cheap HQ which just so happens to be one of the key units in the force. It bolsters your attacks, helps to block lash, can AP3 template and provide 4 WS5 power weapon attacks on the charge.

 

Elites

 

5 Sternguard

> 2 Plasma Cannons

>> Rhino

 

This is a cool little unit which provides some pretty good anti chaos fire power. Used against a unit after your ranged anti armour cracks open their transport, these guys will provide some much needed killing power. The fact that they have better Bolter ammo and more attacks than Marines is a plus point. Keep them in the Rhino and make use of the two fire points if you can.

 

Troops

 

10 Tactical squad

> Power Weapon and bolt pistol Sergeant

> Melta Gun

> Lascannon

>> Rhino

 

This unit should give you a cheap lascannon which will aid you in cracking open Rhinos on the cheap. They will also be able to provide some short ranged killing power with the melta. The Sergeant is no slouch with 4 power weapon attacks on the charge.

 

5 scouts

> Power fist

 

Ditch those sniper scouts! 5 just isnt enough to make an impact. Less than 10 just never bring the points. However make them shotgun scouts and you have a plan. Put them in the Storm I am about to suggest and you can either have a first turn charging unit or a decent outflanking unit to contest a weakly held objective or take on a rhino for some power fist fun. Plus they cant be lashed if they are in a transport.

 

Fast attack

 

Landspeeder Storm

 

Decent transport and I never go to battle without one. It is just so versitile that it makes your scouts good enough to include. Open topped and able to scout, you quickly see the benefit the first time you pull off a first turn charge and wreck a rhino. If you had 15 extra points the multi melta option is worth the risk of missing, just because it allows you a crack at taking out two vehicles (one with the scouts and one with the multi melta)

 

Heavy support

 

10 Devastators

> 4 Missile Launchers

 

Ok its pricey but to be honest its worth it to be able to shoot 4 S8 AP3 rokkits (never call them MISS-iles) a turn. You can combat to spread the fire or just keep them together and focus fire all 4 on his armour/demon prince. If you split them up it will make them less susceptible to a lashing

 

Thunderfire cannon

 

Ok so its not everyones cup of tea but the ability to make vehicles and troops take difficult/dangerous terrain effects makes up for itself and when it comes down to it 4 S6 templates is going to make any disembarked Chaos marines take a lot of wounds. He has nothing long ranged to take this out quick so you should get at least 2 shots out of it, thats all you are going to need to get its points back and it will serve as a constant annoyance to your opponent.

 

All this for 1000 points exactly

 

Hope this helps

 

Wan

[The Black Watch]

Pedro Kantor count as he will give units in 12 + 1 attack (help with the chaos having more attacks and makes you stubborn so less likely to run away)

 

 

Also with kantor these 2 units can capture objectives :D

 

I then had spare points so i decided to put a vindicator in because they scare the bejeezus out of a lot of people and kill everything, so your friend may want to start getting long range anti-tank ;)

 

Thanks Helios, though you have essentially rebuilt my army from the ground up! ;) Not sure I can afford that at the moment. Good point about Cantor making the Sternguard scoring. Could come in handy. And Rhino's to avoid the lash. I have thought about a Vindicator as he'd have to get really close to kill it with his meltaguns. I'll certainly be upgrading/modding my force in that direction.

 

The first thing I would do is rotate your Captain to a different build. TH is a huge waste of I5, his primary strength in CC, so I would switch that out for a Relic Blade or the more cost effective Lightning Claw(s). He could also use a SS or Artificer Armor to increase survivability against Chaos characters.

 

Cheers for the analysis Vel'Cona. I picked this so he could kill the DP (which he did). I was not confident of anything else being able to do it and since his DP has I6/7 my I5 seemed wasted anyway. And obv the TL can knock his I down to 1.

 

If you don't like getting pinned down by Chaos' more combat effective units, consider a transport for your Tactical Marines. Another nice side effect of having your dudes in transports is they can't be targetted by Lash until they get out,

 

Also, you may want to upgrade your Tac Sergeant with some form of special CCW, such as a PW or PF. This can help to fend off assaults (or at least do damage) when a tooled up squad or MC comes calling. In particular I highly recommend PF in this role. A MG or PG in your squad could also assist in ignoring Chaos Marine's hard armor saves.

 

Yeah I guess you're right. I've been mostly deploying defensively and shooting him while he advances which is why I've avoided transports so far. Also true about the MG/PG.

 

Devs are a pretty gross point sink in 1k. Lots of players swear by them, but the amount you've probably put into them could buy you another Tac Squad to snag objectives, or a Dakkapred or TFC to help thin the Chaos ranks. A Dakkapred in particular is a very cost effective choice that is reasonably durable and has the capability to take out transports and deal wounds to squads with concentrated fire.

 

Yeah those Lascannon are not cheap. They actually did the most damage last time though :no: . Dakkapred could be ok but heavy bolters aren't the best against power armour and autocannon aren't the best against vehicles. With my luck on the dice they'd just end up missing.

 

As far as tactics are concerned, your opponent has the right build with a fast C:CSM army; plenty of transported Marines, and a block of nasty Berzerkers to launch a straightforward attack. His DP can help to draw fire from his transports, then Lash units into range for his initial rapid fire disembark. After that it's just a matter of mopping up in CC.

 

Tell me about it! :D

 

To counter this strategy, taking out the transports is key. While the DP is scary and can kill quite a few models a turn, tarpitting him with a Tac Squad (or Dreadnought) can help keep him busy (this is where Power Fists can come in handy). I would try to keep your character away from the DP, and use him to do damage in CC with his Assault Squad, where this unit can actually beat anything short of the Berzerkers. For those maniacs, try to pop their transport early and whittle them down with Plasma and ML fire. Your Dread is a great choice to engage them in close, provided he doesn't get Melta'd down. Oh, and if you were to give your LS a MM, it would make a great transport hunter (hint hint).

 

I was trying to pop the transports but only got 1 of the 3. Last time my Dread charged the DP he got destroyed in the first round of combat without causing a wound :( . I'm a bit scared of it now. You've both suggested I JP my Captain so I might give it a try. Especially since I've not glued his backpack yet ;) . My assault squad fired and then charged his Chaos Lord and 3 remaining Berzerkers and ALL DIED, only killing one of his Berzerkers. Poor show so yeah, might need an IC. I'm already thinking two LS's with 2 MM's each could be quite useful....

 

 

Thanks for the help guys.

 

PS Is it me or is ATSKNF not actually that good? Everytime I've lost a combat I've also failed the moral check due to casualties and then end up suffering a ton more wounds.

[Coyote]

Two things:

1. If you want a cheap Heavy Support entry, give the Thunderfire Cannon a try. It won't do alot to this list until the passengers disembark, but it will do a few things.
   • Keep them IN their transports. This allows to you better control the situation.
     
   • Slow down transports with Tremor shots. You might even get lucky and get more than one, if you line things up right.
     
   • Provide a huge distraction. Placed way out on your flank, a lone TC is too much of a threat/target to ignore. Yes, they die easily. Don't worry. Anything that shoot them isn't shooting elsewhere. And 67% of the time, you get the equivalent of a 70pt. IC when they do get popped.
     

[*]Try a Drop Pod for your Dread, and go for the MM instead of the AC. That will let you pop those 'Zerkers out early, and then tie them up in close combat, because they HAVE to charge him. I've even distracted 'Zerkers with an empty Drop Pod before, just because I'm evil. :devil:

[The Black Watch]

Librarian

> Null Zone, Avenger

 

A nice cheap HQ which just so happens to be one of the key units in the force. It bolsters your attacks, helps to block lash, can AP3 template and provide 4 WS5 power weapon attacks on the charge.

 

Iiiiiiiinteresting.....

 

Elites

 

5 Sternguard

> 2 Plasma Cannons

>> Rhino

 

This is a cool little unit which provides some pretty good anti chaos fire power. Used against a unit after your ranged anti armour cracks open their transport, these guys will provide some much needed killing power. The fact that they have better Bolter ammo and more attacks than Marines is a plus point. Keep them in the Rhino and make use of the two fire points if you can.

 

Iiiiiiiinteresting.....

 

Troops

 

10 Tactical squad

> Power Weapon and bolt pistol Sergeant

> Melta Gun

> Lascannon

>> Rhino

 

This unit should give you a cheap lascannon which will aid you in cracking open Rhinos on the cheap. They will also be able to provide some short ranged killing power with the melta. The Sergeant is no slouch with 4 power weapon attacks on the charge.

 

Iiiiiiiinteresting.....

 

5 scouts

> Power fist

 

Ditch those sniper scouts! 5 just isnt enough to make an impact. Less than 10 just never bring the points. However make them shotgun scouts and you have a plan. Put them in the Storm I am about to suggest and you can either have a first turn charging unit or a decent outflanking unit to contest a weakly held objective or take on a rhino for some power fist fun. Plus they cant be lashed if they are in a transport.

 

Urgh, I'm reluctant to ditch the scouts because they cool. And I've painted them all camo and they look nice. They have done naff all in two battles so far though. Storm sounds good. Will have to investigate that.

 

Thunderfire cannon

 

Tempting, certainly.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

Two things:

1. If you want a cheap Heavy Support entry, give the Thunderfire Cannon a try. It won't do alot to this list until the passengers disembark, but it will do a few things.
   • Keep them IN their transports. This allows to you better control the situation.
     
   • Slow down transports with Tremor shots. You might even get lucky and get more than one, if you line things up right.
     
   • Provide a huge distraction. Placed way out on your flank, a lone TC is too much of a threat/target to ignore. Yes, they die easily. Don't worry. Anything that shoot them isn't shooting elsewhere. And 67% of the time, you get the equivalent of a 70pt. IC when they do get popped.
     

[*]Try a Drop Pod for your Dread, and go for the MM instead of the AC. That will let you pop those 'Zerkers out early, and then tie them up in close combat, because they HAVE to charge him. I've even distracted 'Zerkers with an empty Drop Pod before, just because I'm evil. :devil:

 

Again, something I'll be looking into. As well as Drop-Pods.

 

At least you're all encouraging me that its not totally hopeless! Was beginning to think I needed to find friend who played Orks...

[Hellios]

[*]Try a Drop Pod for your Dread, and go for the MM instead of the AC. That will let you pop those 'Zerkers out early, and then tie them up in close combat, because they HAVE to charge him. I've even distracted 'Zerkers with an empty Drop Pod before, just because I'm evil. :devil:

 

Berzerkers haven't had to move towards nor charge the nearest unit since the last Chaos codex now assuming the berzerkers don't have a power fist on the champion or any plasma pistols you still have the other units with MM and power fists and a DP who can trash the dread if he decides to. I would say you have a good chance of the dread being destroyed... that being said depending on how much effort he puts into trying to kill it he might slow down a couple of his units giving another round of firing. Also consider if you did this a Ironclad with meltagun rather than MM as you should get close enough to get the d6 bonus and you will survive better in CC (with luck)

 

I also notice that someone said sternguard with two plasma cannons which I considered instead of a plas and las :D, I just love lascannons so much :() but yer this is a good unit as well.

[Vel'Cona]

In response to your assessment of ATSKNF; I would say it's a rule designed to give the C:SM a sort of "tactical edge" over the straight up Fearless armies, and the armies that actually have to take morale checks (all three of them). In the past it was very strong because there was no No Retreat! rule, thereby meaning that once your marines were in combat, they were ridiculously hard to dislodge, even against insane odds. While No Retreat! has nerfed the rule a bit, it still works beautifully in conjunction with Combat Tactics, especially against heavy assault armies. The key is to take advantage of your voluntary fall back when it is least in advantage for the opponent; I won't go into details as there's a very long thread about it in this very forum already!

 

The rule Coyote recalls is indeed the 3rd and 4th edition C:CSM ruleset for Khorne Berzerkers, designed to nerf them by making them ridiculously killy but decidedly hard to control (back in the earlier editions if they Blood Raged they would actually jump out of transports to charge across the field!). Now that 5th has somewhat cracked down on the old power units (replacing them with much more lucrative power units) Khorne Berzerkers have lost their old Blood Rage rules in favor of being easier to control, but losing the "heavy weapons" rule (no greater than 4+ saves against their Chainaxes) and replacing it with WS5 and Furious Charge (which they used to have to pay for). This has brought them somewhat more into line with 5th edition tenets, but also makes them pale in comparison to the more flexible and cost effective Noise Marines and the straight overpowered Plague Marines. Were they to have kept the old rules (which are now a universal special rule called Rage, which only a few units have; think Mogul Khamir in C:IG) they would be even less desirable than the previously mentioned units.

[Vedrial]

1.) Buy this guy.

 

2.) Ally him in as a Grey Knight Grand Master with Sacred Incense (155 points).

 

3.) Place said unit into close combat with enemy Daemon Prince.

 

4.) Attack Daemon Prince at eqaul initiative, with 4 attacks (5 on the charge). Pass Psychic test. Hit said Chaos Fiend on 4s, wound on 3s, then watch him fail one of his Invul saves.

 

5.) Remove said Daemon Prince outright, ignoring eternal warrior.

 

6.) Repeat on Chaos Lord if your GM is still alive.

[Vissah]

Yeah but still if you have ATSKNF and you lose COmbat you can run away and rally but if they catch you, you keep on fighting but have to take all those fearless wounds so I dont find that rule all that good.

When ATSKNF comes into play in Combat y ou already lost so hard you hardly got any men left and a player that knows what he is doing just consolidates towards them and they will run of the table so I say that rule is not all that good.

 

I prefer two CC attacks over ATSKNF any day.

[The Black Watch]

Well as a follow up to this I thought I'd post the outcome of my last battle.

 

I ditched my scouts, dev squad and LS and boughts another tactical squad in a rhino, 2 LS's with 2 MM's each and a LRR. Also beefed up my Tac squads a bit. Oh it was 1300 not 1k so could afford a bit more.

 

You'll be pleased to know I cleaned up. Those MM's cause a lot of damage and even though my flamestorm cannon only managed to fire once it killed 5 CSM's.

 

Result! :)

[Vel'Cona]

Grats! With 40k it's all about being flexible. If a strategy that's worked in 10 games suddenly fails in #11, it's time to re-evaluate both the army you're fighting (which may be something you're not familiar with) and your play style/army composition (which may be hindering you against selected opposition). Metagame in 40k!

 

And there's a whole thread about how 40k has no strategy! For shame. :)

[avatar8481]

This is a useful thread for people to see I think, lots of good advice and discussion. For my .02$ I'd add that MM/HF Speeders can also be good as it give you options for using them, and one MM is usually enough to kill tanks.

[Warp Angel]

Chaos is built around killing you up close and personal for the most part, with some limited ranged support options.

 

Click around the links in my sig for some general 40k army building and tactica that may help, but it looks like you've discovered some of SM's strengths against chaos.

 

It's not that you've got better troops or weapons for the most part, it's that you've got better deployment options for getting those weapons on target.

 

Chaos has nothing to match the speed of land speeders, the range of a Thunderfire, or the flexibility of combat squads with cheap razorback fire support. Regular SM are simply more mobile and have more engagement options.

 

Your game is mobility and concentration of firepower, Chaos is almost literally brute force and staying power. If you try and match them one on one, and allow their units to play to their strengths, you're going to have serious issues. So play the Marine game and dictate the terms of engagement to the CSM.

[The Black Watch]

You're dead right Warp Angel, thats a pretty nailed-on analysis. I've found that if you allow even bog-standard CSM's to charge you, you're in for some pain. But simply putting my squads into Rhino's meant he had nothing to run at and was cut to shreds. I know its been said many times but 35pts for a Rhino is probably the best value for money in the whole codex. Even with their low armour value they can take a beating. My last two games I've focussed my ENTIRE army on 1 Rhino (including a dev squad and MM's) in a turn and only just managed to immobilise it.

 

Plus looking in my mates C:CSM's some of the choices are ridiculously expensive (Fast Attack particularly). It seems that they've balanced Chaos' excellent selection of troops by making most other things so expensive they're not worth having. For sub 1200pt battles, Chaos do seem to have a huge advantage. Above this, the SM's can afford to pick cool stuff and get the advantage back.

[avatar8481]

generally the game balance as a whole suffers at less than 1500 and above 2000.

 

Lower points because it's too easy to take things that most lists won't have an answer for. eg @500 points CSM can take a lash wing prince, 1 oblit and 10 plague marines (roughly)...Codex marines can take...what to counter that?

 

At Higher points because you run out of force org usually before you run out of points and some codexes scale up better.

[minigun762]

Plus looking in my mates C:CSM's some of the choices are ridiculously expensive (Fast Attack particularly). It seems that they've balanced Chaos' excellent selection of troops by making most other things so expensive they're not worth having. For sub 1200pt battles, Chaos do seem to have a huge advantage. Above this, the SM's can afford to pick cool stuff and get the advantage back.

 

As a Chaos player, thats very true. Our Fast Attack is often entirely neglected where as Loyalists have tons of awesome choices (damn Multi-Melta Attack Bikes...)

 

Chaos's main strengths are their Troops and their HQs.

Loyalists main strengths are their Elite and Fast Attack.

I'd say Heavy is probably even overall (We get Obliterators and Defilers, you get cheaper Predators/Vindicators and much better Land Raiders plus Whirlwinds and Thunderfires)

 

Warp Angel is dead on when he says that Chaos is a short range army. Now short range =/= only assault, but like Sisters, we're at our prime within 12" normally. Loyalists, especially with the free Heavies in Tacticals, Razorbacks, Bikes and shooty Terminators, have an effective range of 24" if not greater, so use that range to your advantage.

[Donkeycow]

if you ever wanna stick it to Chaos in melee however for whatever reason (change of pace or the thrill of blood shed) you may wanna try a few of the divergent space marine chapters like Blood Angels or Space Wolves. Reason being they can pull their own in CC and from my experience with Blood Angels they do pretty well against Chaos (especially Veteran Assault marines [one more attack then normal assault marines AND can have more power weapons in the squad] and of course the Death Company that can take a hell of beating [feel no pain] and dish out an even more painful one with both furious charge and rending) also the Blood Angels codex is FREE on the GW website under the errata section, definitely worth a look!

 

the link is RIGHT HERE

[The Black Watch]

the Blood Angels codex is FREE on the GW website under the errata section, definitely worth a look!

 

the link is RIGHT HERE

 

Thats pretty good. Is that a mistake? :drool:

 

Do any Chaos players pick Fast Attack choices? I know I wouldn't for the price which seems a shame. Why have it if its not practical? Not that I'm complaining as a loyalist! :drool:

[Grey Mage]

Ive seen Slaaneshi Raptors kcik alot of tail... but otherwise I dont see much FA in the CSM army.

[Donkeycow]

oh yea, forgot to add some more Blood Angel propaganda! :lol: we can take regular Assault Marines as a troop choices which means you don't need to take Tactical Marines if you don't want too (however i think some are always good just to add a bit of range fire support) also our Characters can give units close to them more attacks or even in the case of one character (everybody loves bro corbs) furious charge!

 

The free codex is no mistake! Blood Angel players are just lucky that way!

 

one reason i am pushing B.A here is cause back when i played vanilla marines i had trouble with Chaos (except with one ultra cheese list i had but we shall not go there) but when i switched back to my loverly Angels of Death Chaos became an issue of the past

 

also the only Chaos Fast Attack you are gunna see is generally Slaneesh Raptors (usually with a Slaneesh lord, but no trouble for the might of the Blood Angels!) and Nurgle Bikers (toughness 6... scary)

[minigun762]

Do any Chaos players pick Fast Attack choices? I know I wouldn't for the price which seems a shame. Why have it if its not practical? Not that I'm complaining as a loyalist! :lol:

 

In my opinion, there is only 2 effective uses of Chaos Fast Attack.

5 Raptors, 2 Flamers or Meltaguns

or

3 Bikers, 2 Flamers or Meltaguns

 

Each squad is almost the exact same price, basically its a way to get a pair of specials up close and personal quickly.

Even then, you're often better spending some more points to get a Rhino mounted squad thats tougher and scores.