regarding retreating/fall back

[dragionstorm]

I am not sure of this one..

 

if a unit suffers 25% losses during a phase it must make a morale check..

 

Do they mean 25% off the ORIGINAL UNIT size or of the CURRENT UNIT SIZE..

 

 

so.. if i have a unit of 20 guys.. with no special rules..

 

if i lose 5 guys in a phase.. i make a morale check..... that much i understand..

 

Next turn.. the now 15 man unit.. loses one more guy in a shooting phase.. Does that mean I need another morale check.. or would i have to lose 4 guys in this current phase to make a morale check?

 

 

Also... if a unit has lost 50% of its starting group... it can NEVER regroup (without some special ability)? Do i understand this correctly?

 

 

Thanks for any help you can shed on this topic

 

Dragionstorm

[Legatus]

Do they mean 25% off the ORIGINAL UNIT size or of the CURRENT UNIT SIZE..

Current size. You check the casualties per phase, and how big the unit was at the beginning of that phase. The rule text on page 44 does not explicitely say so, but the example makes that clear. The example describes a 5 man unit, losing 2 models in one phase (40%) and having to take a test. Next phase the now 3 man unit lose 1 model (33%) and have to take another test for that single casualty.

 

Also... if a unit has lost 50% of its starting group... it can NEVER regroup (without some special ability)? Do i understand this correctly?

They cannot attempt to regroup at the beginning of their turn. They could, however, potentially regroup if they are assaulted by an enemy unit. A retreating unit that is being assaulted immediately can test to regroup, ignoring the restrictions that would normally apply (below half strength, enemy within 6", not in coherency). There are also a few special rules in the codex books that allow units to regroup even if they are below half strength. The Space Marines rule "And They Shall Know No Fear" allows them to do so, the Tau "Bonding Knives" allow them to regroup if below half strength as well, IIRC. There might be other special rules, like Synapse Creatures that allow broods to regroup irrespectively of restrictions.

But if there are no army specific special rules in play, a retreating unit that is below half their starting strength will usually not be able to regroup and is effectively out of play. (Units falling back can still shoot though)

[nighthawks]

Do they mean 25% off the ORIGINAL UNIT size or of the CURRENT UNIT SIZE..

Current size. You check the casualties per phase, and how big the unit was at the beginning of that phase. The rule text on page 44 does not explicitely say so, but the example makes that clear. The example describes a 5 man unit, losing 2 models in one phase (40%) and having to take a test. Next phase the now 3 man unit lose 1 model (33%) and have to take another test for that single casualty.

 

that example, unfortunatley, could be construed as proof of both the 20% of starting size AND of 20% of start-of-phase size. The text in the BRB example supports the per phase rule generally used (see below) but given the issues we have all seen with varying interpretations, it seems it would have been a lot easier if GW simply added percentages or used larger unit numbers such as in the example presented by dragionstorm, large enough to make the mechanic clearer. math is harder to misinterpret (I think...).

 

FWIW, everyone I know, and almost every poster I have come upon in my years here use the unit size at the start of the phase.

[Legatus]

that example, unfortunatley, could be construed as proof of both the 20% of starting size AND of 20% of start-of-phase size.

It has to be 25% though...

[nighthawks]

yes it does (woooooops). but the example still exceeds that (40% in turn 1, 33% in turn 2) so the point holds, even if I messed up the cutoff.

[Grey Mage]

yes it does (woooooops). but the example still exceeds that (40% in turn 1, 33% in turn 2) so the point holds, even if I messed up the cutoff.

Unless of course it was a 10 man unit... of wich we cant be sure.

 

Id say precident leans towards it being unit size compared to the start of the phase however.

[Legatus]

yes it does (woooooops). but the example still exceeds that (40% in turn 1, 33% in turn 2) so the point holds, even if I messed up the cutoff.

The single member lost in turn two would only have been 20% of the original starting strength of (assumed) 5, so would not have triggered a morale test if it was based off of starting strength instead of current strength.

[nighthawks]

yeah - you can tell I come online LATE at night, can't you. you all must think me a fool... if you need me, I'll be over in the corner, murmuring to myself.

 

Legatus has it, my maths are off today.