Artillary Units and Blasts/Templates

[Gentlemanloser]

A question from todays game we couldn't find an answer for.

 

An Artillary unit was hit by a Blast Weapon. In the first case it was a Techmarine and Thundefire Cannon, later it was an Eldar D-Cannon Platform. Both the Techmarine and the Cannon were under the bast, but how many 'hits' were scored?

 

Did you have two hits, that you then rolled a d6 for to see if you hit the Techy or Cannon? Or only the one, if the Techmarine was classed as the Cannons Gunner, and the Artillary Unit only made a single target.

 

The same was posed for the D Cannon and its two Operators, when they were hit by a Flame Template.

 

What's the ruling on this?

[Kadaeux]

*Jaw drops open*

 

I have no idea, but if I was to hazard a guess i'd say two hits were incurred as two members of the "unit" were under the template.

[Frosty the Pyro]

The artilery unit is made of two models, when you check for hits you check how many models are under the template. Thus you got two hits. The artilery rules then say you roll the d6 for each hit to day who got hit.

[Gentlemanloser]

The artillary rules also say for Shooting, the artillary peice and the Gunner(s?) count as a single target (With the d6 roll to see who is actually hit).

 

Hence the confusion.

[Iron Father Rik]

Hmm, that is a tricky one, and weirdly one that I personally haven't come across yet, despite using a Thunderfire since its release. It may come down to what the players of the game decide to do. I know this won't quite cut it as an answer for an official, tourney game, but in friendlies I'd offer the suggestion that it should be discussed with your opponent either before the game, or in a friendly and fair manner at the time, if the situation arises.

 

What I would be tempted to do was to say, after scatter, see what is under the template. If after scattering both the artillery piece and any crew are under the template, each takes a hit. For example, a small blast template catches the Thunderfire and the Techmarine. Then both the cannon and the marine take a hit each. Some might be tempted to still roll to randomise what gets hit, but I would suggest that, due to the nature of blast weaponry, if the hit landed between the crew and the gun, it would be very odd for the gun to not take any hits from a nearby explosion.

 

That's my suggestion to you.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm just happy we weren't going mad and had missed a tiny rule somewhere epxlaining this sort of situation! :lol:

 

I'd still faovur the random roll, as ignoring that is cutting a specific shooting rule out of the equation. Just how many times do you get to roll...

 

Personally, I'd probably lead to rolling a number of times for each object unto the Blast/Template. But I can see the reason to just roll once.

[Legatus]

The artillary rules also say for Shooting, the artillary peice and the Gunner(s?) count as a single target (With the d6 roll to see who is actually hit).

The artillery rules do not say that. And "target" does not mean a single entity for the sake of blast templates and hits scored. A full tactical squad is a single "target". It means the different elements cannot be specifically targeted. You shoot at the whole unit, which may consist of a number of models. A tactical squad may have 5 models (for 5 possible template hits). An artillery unit may have 4 gunners and 2 artillery guns (for 6 possible template hits).

 

Firing a template at an artillery unit plays out like this: Put template over the unit. Work out scatter. Every gunner under the template counts for one hit, and every artillery gun under the template counts for one hit. Roll a D6 for every hit to see whether it hits gunners or artillery guns.

[nighthawks]

given that the RAW mechanic is to work out the number of hits and then randomize as described the artillery section, the real question becomes what strength do you use to determine the penetration on the artillery (vehicle) model - as blasts that strike armour use full or half strength depending on the location of the hole in the blast marker and the hull (hole over hull or not).

 

this is honestly an unanswerable question, in that there is no official answer in the BRB (at least none that I have found). so it comes down to player's preference. I think to deny the strength reduction of the blast would be unfair to the artillery-owning player, and to force the hits to fall upon the types of models covered (say you hit 1 gun and 2 crew, armour penetration being resolved as normal for vehicles and wounds as normal for artillery crew / infantry) breaks RAW by not randomizing the hits.

 

so, frater: how do you play it (BTW I think this is going strait to the Grey areas forum once we have some good replies)

[Grey Mage]

My group plays it as a vehicle with AV 10 standing next to an infantry model... whats hit is hit, and unless the hole is over the artillery peice it hits at half strength. No ones complained about this one yet.

[Gentlemanloser]

Thanks! That what I get for taking the word of a mate reading the artillary section. :D

 

I've got no complaints about randomising the numbers of hits under the Template, with the artillary peice counting as a hit, as that's the way I was hedging to play it anyway. :D

 

As for the half strength blast, that's a tough one!

 

Grey Mage's way seems perfectly reasonable, but what happens if you're facing multiple artillary pieces in one unit, and the hole of the Blast template falls over one? After the randomised rolls to see what's hit, how do you decide which artillary peice get's hit, and whether it was the one under the hole or not?

 

Or is it like wound allocation, and you could assign hits singularily to the peices, and having to note which one suffers the full strength hit, then start wrapping round again (depending on the number of hits of course).

[Legatus]

I would suggest that blast templates hitting an artillery unit are treated similar to the Necron Particle Whip. The Particle Whip has an AP of 3, but the model that is underneath the hole of the template is hit with an AP of 1 instead. So you would roll separately to wound for the one hit with AP 1 and the others with Ap 3.

 

Analogue to that, if the hole of the template is over a model of an artillery unit, you then roll separately whether that one hit goes on an artillery gun or on a gunner. If that hit goes on a gun, then it is hit with the full strength of the weapon. Then all the other hits are rolled for, and those that go on artillery gun pieces are only half strength.

 

If after scattering the hole is not above any model of the artillery unit, then all the hits will only be at half strength when resolved against the guns.

[nighthawks]

After the randomised rolls to see what's hit, how do you decide which artillary peice get's hit, and whether it was the one under the hole or not?

the hit may be assigned to any qualifying model (gun in the unit in this case) - similarly to unit wound allocation or penetration allocation on a squadron of vehicles.

[Grey Mage]

After the randomised rolls to see what's hit, how do you decide which artillary peice get's hit, and whether it was the one under the hole or not?

the hit may be assigned to any qualifying model (gun in the unit in this case) - similarly to unit wound allocation or penetration allocation on a squadron of vehicles.

Thats how weve done it with Eldar Support Weapon Batteries... and Im not aware of another multi-artillery unit in the game... seeing as biovores have wounds and all. Its right in line with the normal casualty rules, and it allows you to keep unit coherency.

[Iron Father Rik]

...Im not aware of another multi-artillery unit in the game...

 

Orks have Grot-"manned" Lobba batteries.

[Grey Mage]

AH! Good man.