tyranids, how do i kill 'em

[Storm Hawks Legion]

my freind sent me an article detailing the do and don't of killing space marines with tyranids, now i want to send one back, so any pointers?

[Koremu]

Massed, Disciplined Bolter Fire.

[greatcrusade08]

Sniper scouts and sterguard for killing MC's, point for point snipers are the best at the job, but sternguard are pretty useful elsewhere too!

 

plenty of heavy flamer land speeders can be handy as well as lots of artillery whirlies, vindicators etc.

Generally speaking templates are essential against hordes and vehicles are immune to most basic trrop types.

 

GC08

[waaanial00]

Sniper scouts and sterguard for killing MC's, point for point snipers are the best at the job, but sternguard are pretty useful elsewhere too!

 

Just to add to this point. When GC states sniper scouts I am sure he means LOTS of sniper scouts. 5 will never be sufficient to the task given even a moderate amount of luck. Half will miss, half will not wound, 67% (83% if you are facing a smart player) will be saved. Think 20 snipers and you might have a chance however when you do this point for point sternguard are much better!

 

Sternguard are going to be hitting 67% of shots, 83% will wound, 67% (83% if you are facing a smart player) will get saved. Throw in some combi plasmas and you start to see why they are going to be killing much more than sniper scouts.

 

Generally speaking templates are essential against hordes and vehicles are immune to most basic troop types.

 

In the main vehicles are immune but once you start adding a biomorph here and there you get a whole bunch of cheap gaunts which are glancing rear armour of 10 on 6's. You also have to deal with those nasty Genestealers and monsterous creatures so beware of piling too much armour in there.

 

Sorry GC I am not picking on you just making sure noone mis interprets your advice.

 

As to my advice.

 

Shoot the big stuff, castle up, take heavy bolters, take AP2 weapons, take counter charge units, hidden power fists, support HQ units.

 

Aim for the big stuff and deal with the little stuff when it gets close to you. Take out those Carnifexes before they hit your lines. Take stubborn whenever you can to avoid that Psychic/Nuke Choir.

 

As nice as it is to take a gunline expect the nid player to take some outflanking genestealers which will destroy a unit that is 18" from the board edge.

 

Heavy bolters pay for themselves as they are strong enough to take out most of their units, they just so happen to be able to take out warriors really well given that they can only have a 4+Sv.

 

AP2 weapons are a must against nid players. Most opponents will put extended carapace on their big bugs which means 2+ save, however a nid cannot get an invul of more than 6+ so just offload as much AP2 weaponry at their bigger bugs as possible. Top tip is to ask about the big bugs armour save before the game, if they only tell you what their biomorphs are then you are looking out for "Extended Carapace", if they have only got a 3+ save then Missile Launchers are golden.

 

Nids will get amoungst you, its a face just accept it. Given that this is true you will need to invest some points into a highly mobile counter striking unit, bikers are awesome at this! They are relentless, have high strength and access to both AP2 and 1 weapons as well as flamers so can counter assault either group of big and small bugs. Assault Marines are ok for fighting smaller bugs (never genestealers!!!!!) but will die in droves to the bigger bugs (as do bikes by the way) so they should only be sacrificed if you have a hidden power fist.

 

Hidden power fists are a must when facing nids. Those carnifexes are I1 so you will be getting a load of innefectual hits before the main show of the power fist. However a carnifex can have 8 attacks on the charge so expect to lose combat still.

 

Given that a Carnifex can ouput S8 template attacks and is S9 you can expect that if an HQ is charged they are likely to get Instant Killed despite being armed with a Storm Shield (3+ still means 1/3 of wounds get through) which means that your HQ (unless you HQ is Lysadner or Calgar) is better off bolstering your attack through other means. This means a Libby, chaplain or a shooty Captain. Chaplain is going to be making sure that your attacks are hitting on the charge, your librarian is going to be providing Vortex of Doom, Smite, Avenger or GOI your Sternguard around.

 

Hope some of this helps

 

Wan

[Frosty the Pyro]

Point for Point, scouts oust rapid fire sterngard vs 2+ sv. Vs 3+ sv stern gard win with rapid fire but loose at max range fire, I crunched these numbers a long time ago so I cant quote the exact % diferences, but trust me. due to the rending (this of course is purely for shooting damage stern still have a better save and more A in CC). Remember 1/3 of those hits are going to be unsavable which is espeicaly important. However, plasma spam is the way to go. A comand squad with 4 plasma rifles will kills a carnifex statisticly with one max range salvo + one rapidfire salvo. Genestealers will eat most any vehicle (or infinatry squad) they touch, but they are very very squishy to shooting.

 

 

A standard nid line will be guants infront of wariors in front of fex (this is because guants give wariors cover saves, and wariors are big enouph to give a fex a cover save.) sometimes its better peal away those cover saves

 

If you keep comat tactics (instead of being stubern) then USE it. If they charge you and win combat, fail that save and try to fall back and shoot the heck out of them, if they catch you oh well "no retreat" on your 3+ not a big deal. Remember nids have horable saves, most wont even get saves vs bolters. Mased bolter fire will be your freind against everything short of the MC and maybe zoanthropes.

 

If the a Zoanthrope has warp blast its a target, warp blast is an ap3 blast and strong enouph to to wound reliably, it will eat your marines, without warp blast they arnt to dangerous offensivly so only waste your time if you need an easy kill point or they are running some other power you need removed (generaly synapse or psychic scream).

 

Nids dont have vehicles, plasma is going to be your freind, not melta. Assult cannons and heavy bolters are also nice, after all quantity has a quality all its own.

[eyescrossed]

Frosty, don't you mean 1/6 will be Rending?

[waaanial00]

EDIT: Point raised by eyescrossed so please ignore this post

[Vel'Cona]

Thunderfire Cannons and Dakkapreds. Most 'Nids that aren't doing Zilla style will divert a good bit of resources to take out your TFC, but that can be used to anchor a flank or otherwise distract his attentions from your main units. Dakkapreds are a cheap source of anti-bug firepower, though they'll falter against the big guys. Lascannons are actually good here, since the big bugs can sport 2+ saves and range is important. I guess you could say Preds in general in this case.

 

Another thing to keep an eye out for is Genestealers. Make sure you know how they'll be deploying (Infiltrate with the BL, Outflank otherwise) or they'll pick off a unit left meandering near the table edge. It's also important to know whether their save has been upgraded or not (this is a general rule for Nids) because that'll determine whether to use your Heavy Bolters or your massed Bolter fire, and which type of round to use in the TFC each turn.

[Sadetta]

good advice. can you or someone give advices with different chapter such as BA, DA, BT,etc as well?

[Frosty the Pyro]

Frosty, don't you mean 1/6 will be Rending?

 

 

Actualy I ment 1/3, what I messed up with was I ment 1/3 of the WOUNDS, not hits. slip of the metaphorical toung.

[waaanial00]

Frosty, don't you mean 1/6 will be Rending?

 

 

Actualy I ment 1/3, what I messed up with was I ment 1/3 of the WOUNDS, not hits. slip of the metaphorical toung.

 

How when you are rending on a 6?

[greatcrusade08]

What frosty means is out of 6 hits only 3 will hit but 1 out of those 3 will be a rending hit.

 

Hence 1/3 actual hits will be rending, but only 1/6 of shots will rend..

 

Got to get the wording right otherwise its confusing :lol:

 

I stand by my assertion that sniper scouts are the best way to go for anti-MC... since Plasma have to be very close to be more effective, snipers are just as good from any range upto 36"

 

Gc08

[eyescrossed]

What frosty means is out of 6 hits only 3 will hit but 1 out of those 3 will be a rending hit.

 

Hence 1/3 actual hits will be rending, but only 1/6 of shots will rend..

What? How?

 

1/6 of the hits will Rend, as you need at least 6 hits to get one 6 on average.

 

 

EDIT: Ohhh, you mean out of 6 hits, 3 will Wound.

[Storm Hawks Legion]

good good good, ty very helpful, previous encounters have proven him to be inexperienced with his nids, and as such i have butchered him, but as the saying goes; "It is all too easy to underestimate your enemy and overestimate your ally". so, dakka pred i have, tfc i don't have yet, sniper scouts i have ten, sternguards i will have ten, unless my painting schedule gets seriously delayed, plasma and lascannons I'm short on, i can get another two lascannons right away, four with dreads, plasma could be a problem though, shooting cap and chap i have, powerfists i don't have but i might be able to convert a couple of sarges. his army last time straddled the line between Godzilla and horde; two mc's, two gaunt broods and a genestealer brood, his article he sent me was mostly on the little guys, he has seriously talked about hormaguants, which are the things from the nid list i am most afraid of. heavy bolters i have, i have one land speeder, mounting a assault cannon, and three dreads, two of which i can switch weapons around on, only on assault cannon between them though, then i have the AoBR dread that i converted to a heavy flamer venerable.

[Narthecium]

Heavy bolters and ordnance. :D

[waaanial00]

his army last time straddled the line between Godzilla and horde; two mc's, two gaunt broods and a genestealer brood,

 

Ok so he at least isnt hitting you with a very nasty list, it appears he has a slightly fluffy list. This is a good sign.

 

his article he sent me was mostly on the little guys, he has seriously talked about hormaguants, which are the things from the nid list i am most afraid of.

 

This made me laugh, a lot! As a budding nid player I am slightly surprised you are that scared of these little dudes on their own. Scared of them messing up your plans I can understand but scared of them alone? Lets break them down a little so you become a little less afraid of them.

 

Firstly they are base T3 S3 WS4 I4 and SV6+. This makes them hit you on 4's at the same time but with a weaker strength, they also happen to be about 5 points less than a tactical marine in this format. They will also have 3 attacks on the charge. All in all not so special but can deal a bit of hurt if you roll poorly for saving throws (like I did for my termies last night :) )

 

However on the plus side they can buy upgrades to S, WS, I, SV. Which can mean that they can hit you first and on 3's with S4. However at this point they are likely to be a little bit more than your average tactical marine and you are still likely to win combat by having a much better save. Their big plus is that they have a 12" charge and they are fleet, please note that they CANNOT run 12". So they have a potential charge range of 24".

 

What this means is that they will likely be used as a forward line disruption unit. They will be operating at the edge of synapse range and ready to accelerate and hit your lines about turn 2, they will likely take one or two of your marines down but take a pasting themselves. At which point they will likely be out of synapse and with a LD of 6 they are not going to be sticking around. If they are still in synapse they are likely going to take a bunch of fearless saves on that 6+ armour and therefore losing even more, however they will have achieved their goal of holding a unit up and stopping them you from shooting them.

 

So on their own they are not too special. However Hormagaunts used in conjunction with either genestealers with feeder tendrils or a lictor are not half bad. Reason being that feeder tendrils give models within 3" preferred enemy, that means rerolls to hit. This is bad for you even if they have WS4 (WS5 is much worse) because it means more hits, more wounds and more saves to take (and possibly fail). Combined with I5 these guys can put a large dent in your forces before you get a chance to strike back. This manouver does take a lot of skill and coordination (not to mention luck) but just be aware of the possibility. Nids, more than most armies, work really well together as their special rules and biomorphs allow them to bolster the effectiveness of units around them.

 

 

Hormagaunts used to be very good in 4th ed, because they could clear the kill zone and win combats by slowly grinding their opponents down. Both these tactics are gone, fearless just kills large fearless units with poor saves and with the ability to take casualties from anywhere in the squad unless they kill your squad outright they are not going to be denying you those kills.

 

Hope this info helps,

 

Dont fear hormagaunts, fear the bigger picture.

 

Wan

[Cornishman]

The trickiest part of the nid lists I've come across are all those tooled up MC's. ~4 MC's with 2+ saves T7 and 5W takes an awful lot of killing. Plasma and melta weapons, Lascannons and other AP2 or 1 weapon are your friend.

 

Against a T6 or 7 and 2+Sv the humble missile launchers krak payload just doesn’t cut it. This isn’t to say a missile launcher is useless, it is just most effective at taking out 3+ sv MC’s or using frag missiles against the rest of the army.

 

At range Nid's will struggle with heavy armour so with AV13 Vindicators and Predators should provide reliable fire. The vindicators demolisher cannon should be useful to take out those MC's, especailly if you can get more than one in the large template (just keep in mind how vulnerable it is in melee). Whilst any load out of a predator will have its use, given the mobility of nid’s you will may need careful positioning and manoeuvring of the predator if you are to maximise the firepower (e.g by remaining stationary to fire all weapons, and get clear enough LOS to avoid cover saves if using LCS).

 

I like using razorbacks, whilst AV11, so susceptible to the vast amounts of Str6 shots a nid amry can produce, shots at a razorback are shots that aren’t going on something else. Like the predator every weapon configuration has its use. Heavy bolters are great for engaging the lesser nids at range. Heavy flamers will turn any lesser nids into charcoal but are vulnerable, so are best used a counter-assault uni as the enemy nears. T-L Lascannon and Lascannon+T-L Plasamagun will be able to take valuable wounds off those MC’s, and with their manoeuvrability will make it harder for MC’s to claim a cover save.

 

Unfortunately as try as you might, you have to expect and plan that some of the CC MC's will hit your line, this is where you need hidden powerfists. The rest of the squad may be little more than ablative armour but this is often (just) enough to finish off a weakened MC.

 

Sternguard are excellent, I have often used most of their special ammo types in games vs nids. Kraken with 30” range and AP4 is extremely useful, both for the extra range, and the AP (especially vs extended carapace ‘stealers and warriors), Dragonsbreath will toast gaunts and hormagaunts, and hellfire will hopefully produce enough wounds that some will get past those 2+ saves. Use sternguard with care, if you can get 2 shots from your bolter, it means anything you leave behind will be able to charge.

 

Homogaunts (or gaunts) will fall to bolter fire, flamers, frag missiles and all the standard anti-horde kit, the main issue with thinning their numbers is the availability of cover saves.

 

Watch out for those outflanking ‘stealers, if you position any squads near (okay ~18”) an edge they can all to easily get ripped to pieces by them. Use wound allocation to your advantage here, losing a squad, so allowing you to rip the ‘stealers with bolter fire can often be better than preserving the squad and allowing the ‘stealers to shelter from you wrath whilst being locked in combat.

[eyescrossed]

~4 MC's with 2+ saves T7 and 5W

Impossible. You can have a max of 3 T7 2+ save W5 Carnifexes in a force. Those 3 upgrades take the 'fexes well above the Elites point restriction, even without weapons.

[Koremu]

~4 MC's with 2+ saves T7 and 5W

Impossible. You can have a max of 3 T7 2+ save W5 Carnifexes in a force. Those 3 upgrades take the 'fexes well above the Elites point restriction, even without weapons.

Hive Tyrant?

[Cornishman]

~4 MC's with 2+ saves T7 and 5W

Impossible. You can have a max of 3 T7 2+ save W5 Carnifexes in a force. Those 3 upgrades take the 'fexes well above the Elites point restriction, even without weapons.

 

Opps, three tooled up Fexes and what ever tyrants can muster, I can't remember exactly what upgrades they can have not having.

[eyescrossed]

~4 MC's with 2+ saves T7 and 5W

Impossible. You can have a max of 3 T7 2+ save W5 Carnifexes in a force. Those 3 upgrades take the 'fexes well above the Elites point restriction, even without weapons.

Hive Tyrant?

They can't take the Toughness or Wound upgrades.