waaanial00 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 @jeske: Not everyone plays to min/max their armies. So yes, people do play Khorne Lords with Daemon weapons. And Devastators may be comparatively static to tanks, but that doesn't make them bad. Tanks can die with a single shot, Devastators don't. Yes that shot MIGHT not hit/penetrate the armour/wreck the tank, but there's every possibility that it will kill the tank on turn one. And hiding tanks and then moving them out to shoot limits their effectiveness. Point for point devastators can often mount greater amounts of firepower and can boast higher survivability in many situations. Though the point remains that a S3 attack cannot harm a vehicle at all no matter how it is used to attack it. I am simply making a counter point to the argument not sitting on either side of this rickety fence. A dev squad is more than capable of getting killed in one shot (large template blast) just the same as a tank. I think its fairly balanced between the pros and cons of infantry/tank based heavy weapons, I just wish that Matt Ward had not made them so stupidly expensive to arm with heavy weapons. And I strongly disagree with rating armies as "Tier 1" or "Tier 2" or whatever. Just because they have not had a v5 update yet does not make them bad or weak or anything. Every army has its strengths and weaknesses, and Tau, Eldar and Nids have just as much capability of beating a Space Marine army as Daemons and Orks do. Disagree if you want about the "rating" of armies as tier 1 or tier 2, it is after all your right, but these rathings have nothing to do with a V5 update. Some armies got better in 5th ed without getting a new codex (IMO witch hunters got severely evil in 5th ed). However despuite building to META or template as I prefer to think of it, balanced armies can still kick butt when the need arrives. After all it is a game of chances and no army is auto win or auto lose despite what the numbers say. Also, assault marines are fantastic as counter-assault units, and even better as assault units, as I at least have found on many occasions when using them myself. I find you are simply saying "this is crap, that is crap" without backing up your points at all. I am fully aware that everyone has different opinions on units, and are entitled to express them as they wish, however it would be much better if you could back up your points to allow us to take them on board as valid arguments. I wouldnt go so far as to call them fantastic, ever run them into a unit of plague marines? That is when you find they struggle. Even better as assault units? Really. I have run these in both competative and non competative environments and I have got to say they have been found wanting as assault units in both. They simply dont hit hard enough. I think the jeske is saying they are rubbish because they simply do not compete with other assault orientated units. Examples include Khorne Berserkers have WS5, more attacks and capability to strike faster and harder. Ork slugga boys are massively cheaper, have more attacks and massively more bodies. Genestealers... well you know they are better. Archo-Flagelents can give you a complete pasting on the charge and can deal out a serious amount of pain when you charge them. Terminators, good luck getting through that 2+ armour with only a max of 31 attacks. Nob bikers, laughably inneffective. Grey knights, they are hitting you harder and easier. Howling Banshees, striking scorpions are both going to tear you apart. When charging like for like I can understand what you are saying, against vanilla marines they are fairly good, Necrons and Tau are very easy to beat up and even some SOB units. However if you are not charging with the Assault Marines or are stuck in protracted battles the only advantage you have is a 3+ save and T4, neither of which are particularly special in 40K. This is not even going into the dilemma of Lash, gunlines, pinning, psycher battle squads, psychic choir and nuke choir stopping you from getting close enough to get into combat. I have even out performed Assault Squads with CC scouts for much cheaper, they just are not that special. Disagreements are on their way I am sure. Wan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 But there is a HUGE psychological upside to winning with an underdog list. Enough that I recommend even the most advanced players give it a whirl once in a while. i play a nm water warrior . Not everyone plays to min/max their armies. So yes, people do play Khorne Lords with Daemon weapons. And Devastators may be comparatively static to tanks, but that doesn't make them bad. Tanks can die with a single shot, Devastators don't. 0_o but you cant minimax in 5th ed.also the comment on the tau and khorn lord were full of sarcasm becuase on thing got nerfed in 5th and the other one was very bad to begin with and didnt get much better in 5th[and considering the change to poison it even got worse] . the thing with"tanks" is that dreads die after they have blown up something [so double win , they draw away fire from troops and destroy enemy units] . devastators or equally static predators have a big chance of being blown up before they do something [and no stuning a rhino that used smokes is not doing something]. Point for point devastators can often mount greater amounts of firepower and can boast higher survivability in many situations. you cant get more resilent then being unkillable till you do what you were ment for . if a dread lands blows up something and then dies . he has dont his work[same with sternguard 5 mans] . if he survives [and in builds that use ironclads that can happen] its double win , because he can blow up more things /tar pit units or just plain draw more fire next turn . When you shot and devs they die like normal sm .As units like dakka tyrants , lootaz , or plain double taping bolter units exist the chance for a hvy dieing fast is quite large. And I strongly disagree with rating armies as "Tier 1" or "Tier 2" or whatever. Just because they have not had a v5 update yet does not make them bad or weak or anything. Every army has its strengths and weaknesses, and Tau, Eldar and Nids have just as much capability of beating a Space Marine army as Daemons and Orks do. well what can I say to that. I belive there is tier 1 , tier 2 and armies that dont work . some armies work only at certain number of points [DW is quite brutal at 1k points for example] , while others dont work at all [like necron for example] . As nids or eldar tau go. out of those 3 only eldar are still tier 1 [and when one compers the power lvl they have now and what they had in 5th its like a world of difference] . tau and nids ? armies build around hvy support choices and elite ? with weak , easy to kill troops ? If they are still good why dont we see them toping GT lvl tournaments while chaos or orks are represented there ? Also, assault marines are fantastic as counter-assault units, and even better as assault units, as I at least have found on many occasions when using them myself. I find you are simply saying "this is crap, that is crap" without backing up your points at all. I am fully aware that everyone has different opinions on units, and are entitled to express them as they wish, however it would be much better if you could back up your points to allow us to take them on board as valid arguments. ok what can assault sm counter? csm unit? same number of attacks , same number of models only csm ride in rhinos so will have more bodies . zerkers ? i dont think so. pms ditto again . Terminators assault units ? nope cant counter those. demon units , demon princes ? not really they can try to tar pit for one turn. nob bikers ? lol. So what can they counter . IG [as long as its not penel legion] or sob units [ rather tar pit them, then actually win ] . Necron [but that every meq can do that]. tau [cool every army that ends up with tau in hth wins . even necron.] . normal tacs [if they catch the rhinos] . Is that reason enough to say they suck ? PS: and waaanial00 told what I wanted to tell . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatEscape_13 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 I think the jeske is saying they are rubbish because they simply do not compete with other assault orientated units. Examples include Khorne Berserkers have WS5, more attacks and capability to strike faster and harder. Ork slugga boys are massively cheaper, have more attacks and massively more bodies. Genestealers... well you know they are better. Archo-Flagelents can give you a complete pasting on the charge and can deal out a serious amount of pain when you charge them. Terminators, good luck getting through that 2+ armour with only a max of 31 attacks. Nob bikers, laughably inneffective. Grey knights, they are hitting you harder and easier. Howling Banshees, striking scorpions are both going to tear you apart. Okay, I think we all agree that these units one-to-one trump assault marines. But that doesn't make assault marines bad. Do Marine players not understand that the greatest strength of our army is using the tried and true ork tactic of "dakka the choppa and choppa the dakka"? You don't counter an enemy hand-to-hand specialty squad with a melee squad of your own that is "better". You shoot the crap out of them. Feed them a sacrifice unit then blast them with the rest of your army. This is where a tactical-heavy army can really shine--as every unit can be the sacrifice, and every other unit has enough firepower to seriously dent these guys. Meanwhile your assault marines are pursuing other targets where they do have the advantage: Tau firewarriors and battlesuits Necron warriors and most everything in the list but tomb spyders and scarabs Tyranid warriors, some gaunts, zoanthropes and biovores Eldar scouts, guardians, fire dragons, black reapers, purple horseshoes (wait... no) Lesser demons Tactical marines and Space Marine Scouts Ork specialty units (lootas, burnas, stormboyz... anything that is small in unit size that will crumble when charged due to the low initiative) Vehicles in every army If you are facing an all assault specialty army (i.e. khorne berzerers) you commit your assault marines only against squads that have been whittled by firepower to the point where numbers should carry the day--or let your assault marines be the sacrificial pawn that game while relying on other units to win. To that end, I find assault marines very useful. Not matching up blow-by-blow to the most lethal hand-to-hand units in the game does not make them bad in themselves. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lansirill Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 What the heck is an nm water warrior? I've got the last 2 words, but I'm just going to make crap up trying to figure out nm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissah Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 I think it means Noise Marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BattleBrotherValorus Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 One also has to bear in mind, that a half-company can be achieved while still using Bikes/Attack Bike/Land Speeders, as the codex indicates, and has since 2nd edition when I began playing. The various edition Codices state that assault marines often took to the field as the drivers of Landspeeders, or on Bikes or Attack Bikes instead of utilizing their jump packs. Not to down the Assault marines, but a 6-man Bike squad with an Attack Bike and a Landspeeder (Or 3 Attack Bikes, 2 Landspeeders or something similar) might give a bit more tactical flexibility while still retaining the full fluffiness of the 1/2 Company list. Not a sermon, just a though to consider. -Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Assault Marines are a "sweeper" unit. You should use them to cut down weak and vulnerable enemy units. What they aren't is Hunter-Killers. Whist they can be thrown headlong into the enemy units, the prefered option is to hold them as a tactical counter unit, usually in Reserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 I run a tactical-heavy list, and am steadily bulking up my assault Marine squad to 10 men. Personally, i love this build. It's fluffy, and RESILIENT. Marines are tough to kill, and when you've got 60 of them facing you, plus any supporting units, you realize you're gonna need a bigger gun. I haven't used Devastators since 4th Edition, but am thinking about doing so again. Relying on tanks seems to end up with me taking a lucky lascannon or melta shot to the side armor, and instantly giving up a killpoint. Devvies can take more incoming fire, dish out more shots (when full-strength), and can survive a round or two in close combat (where a tank gets assaulted on AV10 rear armor and 'splodes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 I regard my Predator, Vindicator and Land Raider as straightforward distractions from my Rhinos, to be honest. My strategy is generally about putting as much ceramite and adamantium between my Marines and incoming fire as possible. Power Armour, Rhino, Main Battle Tank... takes the enemy a while before they can manage to shoot the Marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Yeah, if your deploying armor you should always deploy it in force- just like in real life. A single tank is easily and often swiftly removed- it has target painted all over it. Half a dozen tanks means your enemy often spreads out their firepower, or you can capitalize upon their concentration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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