Using Shrike.

[ShinyRhino]

So, my next little "wishlist" army will be a Shrike list. I've already drawn up a "wishlist" biker list, and have been working toward it.

But Shrike seems very cool, fluffwise, so I'm gonna poach his rules and make an Ultramarine version.

But, what sort of list do you support him with at 1500 points?

 

In theory, I was aiming at something like this:

 

Shrike

Chaplain with jump pack

 

Two CC/Shotgun scout mix squads, one with ML, one with HB, both with powerweapon/meltabomb sergeants.

One sniper scout squad with missile launcher

 

One TLLC/ML Dread (provides a heavy weapon firebase, and should always be delpoyed in some form of cover)

 

One Landspeeder Storm

Two full Assault Squads. One with double flamers and PW/MB sergeant, one with double plasma pistols and PF sergeant.

 

 

All squads are assumed to be at full 10-man strength.

Shrike leads one assault squad, the chaplain leads the other. Deploy the Dread in a nice lane of fire to take on transports and such. The snipers start in cover, and are assigned MC/TEQ duty.

I like the flexibility of deployment with this list, as most everything can come on either outflanking, 12" from board edge, infiltrate, etc.

Shrike joining a full-strength assault squad to Infiltrate feels dead sexy. Potential first-turn assaults with the right terrain and deployment type.

 

Is this the generally-accepted standard for such a list? Would I be better off with a normal landspeeder, two tactical squads in Rhinos, and maybe a 5-man sniper unit instead?

[Frosty the Pyro]

Infiltrated (or outflanking) assult terminators with fleet (or even tacticle terminators if you dont expect alot of power weapons/ ap2/ap1) . Enouph said.

[JamesI]

When I've faced Shrike (a couple of different marine players) the common threads have been assault terminators in land raiders of some kind. when the raider dies or they charge out, the terminators have the movement to get from one target to the next. 7 Terminators and a terminator chaplain in a Crusader really hurts when it hits.

[Coyote]

I've had some issues with fast assault SM vs. IG. (I play at a GW store, so the lists I see lean towards whatever is "hot".) While I pulled two draws by wiping the troops, the armor roxxed my world. Be prepared to deal with Mechanized lists.

[ShinyRhino]

Infiltrated (or outflanking) assult terminators with fleet (or even tacticle terminators if you dont expect alot of power weapons/ ap2/ap1) . Enouph said.

 

But is that cost-effective? For 200+ points (depending on wargear) you get five bodies. You can get twice as many bodies and double the mobility with assault squads' jump packs.

[ShinyRhino]

I've had some issues with fast assault SM vs. IG. (I play at a GW store, so the lists I see lean towards whatever is "hot".) While I pulled two draws by wiping the troops, the armor roxxed my world. Be prepared to deal with Mechanized lists.

 

What do you feel was the hardest part of dealing with the armor? Cracking high AV with the missile launchers? Getting the tanks to hold still so you can land grenades, meltabombs and powerfist hits?

[Coyote]

What do you feel was the hardest part of dealing with the armor? Cracking high AV with the missile launchers? Getting the tanks to hold still so you can land grenades, meltabombs and powerfist hits?

Getting them to hold still while I stick a Melta-Banana in the tailpipe.

 

I, admittedly, was not running enough anti-armor in the list for my area's metagame. That's why I spent the weekend going 'back to basics' with plain MEQ lists. We'll see how I play later this week, now that I've learned how to more effectively field Devastators.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Infiltrated (or outflanking) assult terminators with fleet (or even tacticle terminators if you dont expect alot of power weapons/ ap2/ap1) . Enouph said.

 

But is that cost-effective? For 200+ points (depending on wargear) you get five bodies. You can get twice as many bodies and double the mobility with assault squads' jump packs.

 

 

yeah you dont get as many bodies, but you get inv saves, 2+ armor, power weapons, and an equal or greater number of attacks. Those 5 guys are normaly harder to kill, and harder hitting than the comparitive points of assult marines. Fleeting assult marines have a 19-24 inch charge range, the terminators have 13-18 inch. If the terminators where in a land-raider their assult range is 21-26 inches (well actualy its about a modellength more than that). So yeah the assult terms will generaly be more leathal, more leather per point, and about equaly hard to kill as the assult marines.

[the jeske]

if you take shriek and assault termis you take a 10 man unit . never a 5 man one.

[ShinyRhino]

if you take shriek and assault termis you take a 10 man unit . never a 5 man one.

 

Care to elaborate? Tips for deploying such a unit, and keeping it safe while it makes its way to charge range?

[Coyote]

As far as keeping an Assault Termie unit safe, one technique that I use is simply not to take all Thunderhammers or Lightning Claws. A 70/30 mix of the two, combined with the Sgt. should give you enough 3+ Invulnerable saves by spreading the Wound Allocation love. Going all TH removes most of this control.

 

Other than that, they don't need a whole lot of protection. In fact, the more that's shooting at them, the better. It means that those units can't shoot at something else. And the Termies can take it better than a Land Raider in many cases.

[Brother Crassus]

I'm curious how people are attaching a non-infiltrating unit to Shrike.

 

Characters attach to units during deployment or in reserve. Infiltrators are left untill after deployment is complete.. So in order for a unit to benefit from infiltrate due to Shrikes rule they would have to be attached to him already, since deployment by that point is complete the time for him to join the unit has already passed.

 

That leads me to think Shrike can infiltrate on his own, or attach to a unit of infiltrators such as scouts.. Or join a unit in reserve and have them flank.

 

I cant see how RAW its possible for Shrike to make any squad of his choosing infiltrate.

[Bannus]

It isn't an issue - because the units are deployed at the same time. So Shrike and the unit he is attaching to (by being placed within 2") are deployed together at the time Infiltrators are deployed.

[Brother Crassus]

The only way for that unit to gain infiltrate is for Shrike to join them. From the discussion on Warseer:

 

Page 48, core rulebook.

 

"Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them."

 

This is an order of operations issue. An IC (in this case shrike) cannot be joined to a squad before deployment occurs, as he must be placed in coherency with that unit to be joined.

 

An IC therefore cannot be joined to a squad until that squad is already present on the table.

 

A squad cannot infiltrate unless they have the infiltrate special rule.

 

Ergo, that squad may not be placed on the board in a forward position (infiltrate), because they must be placed before they have gained the infiltrate special rule via Shrike.

 

Heres a quote from the core rulebook, page 92: "In all three types of deployment, the sequence is the same. First the players deploy their forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that chose to use their ‘infiltrate’ special rule). Then they deploy their infiltrators (as described on page 75), and finally they move units with the ‘scouts’ special rule (see page 76)."

 

A unit cannot have gained infiltrate from Shrike, unless he was placed in coherency with them. That cannot occur, unless the unit has already been placed on the board. That unit cannot be infiltrated, unless shrike is already attached, which cannot occur.

 

However

Shrike's special rule does allow you to outflank with a unit, because during deployment, you keep shrike and the squad in reserves. You then state that you are attaching Shrike to that squad (see the rules page 94, core rulebook), and then that he and that squad are then outflanking.

 

Note: You Can Only Attach An IC To A Squad That Has Not Been Placed On The Table If They Are Both Put In Reserves.

 

I'm sure that people are going to try and argue otherwise on this, and if you have a valid argument, please make sure and quote all page numbers for the rules so we can follow your statements.

 

So yeah, Kind of is an issue =P

[Bannus]

Yes, but if you decide to deploy Shrike with a unit - that unit HAS the Infiltrate ability. So they are deployed together as Infiltrators.

[Brother Crassus]

Rules as written, that is impossible Bannus. If you re-read rules for joining units and deployment, what you are describing is impossible

[Bannus]

I have read the rules - but Shrike has his special rules - which pre-empt the normal rules.

They wouldn't be special otherwise.

[Brother Crassus]

And his rules just say Shrike and models in his squad benefit from infiltrate and to see the warhammer rulebook. Afer checking the rulebook for attaching characters to units, it is very clear how to do so.. Could you provide the page numbers telling me where he can break deployment rules and join any unit he pleases before it is on the table? Rules as written he certainly can give a unit out-flank, but that is it.

[Bannus]

Well, listen to yourself.

 

 

You say "Shrike and models in his squad benefit from infiltrate" - which is how his rules are written (RAW).

 

Then you say that - by RAW - it isn't possible. Which violates RAW right there.

 

His special rules state that he and the unit he is attached to can infiltrate.

 

So when you decide which squad to attach Shrike to, you deploy them together as infiltrators - it breaks none of the stated rules (even those on page 48 of the BRB).

 

"...a character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed within coherency with them." Note that the character is already with the unit when the game begins - when is that? Turn one.

 

So you deploy Shrike within 2" of (and at the same time as) the unit in question at the point during setup when infiltrators are deployed.

 

Notice that no rules are being violated - even RAW.

[Brother Crassus]

What I am saying is that:

 

A. the only way a character can attach to a unit is by being placed within 2" coherency of them. On page 48 it says "Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them" That means they need to already be on the table in order for the character to join them.

 

B. The only way for Shrike to be placed within 2" coherency according to the rules is if they are already on the table.

 

C. In order for them to already be on the table, they would have had to have infiltrate to begin with. Page 92 "In all three types of deployment, the sequence is the same. First the players deploy their forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that chose to use their ‘infiltrate’ special rule)." A unit cannot have gained infiltrate from Shrike, unless he was placed in coherency with them. That cannot occur, unless the unit has already been placed on the board. That unit cannot be infiltrated, unless shrike is already attached, which cannot occur.

 

D. In order for that unit to gain infiltrate, Shrike had to join them. Which he cannot do outside of normal deployment or reserves.

 

It's all there in black and white. The rulebook doesn't mention anything about characters and units attaching to them being "deployed at the same time"

 

So heres the sequence to clear it up:

1. Deploy forces: Characters may attach to units that are deployed by being within 2" coherency or held in reserve

2. Deploy infiltrators: Terminators try to deploy, but cannot since they do not have infiltrate. In order to gain infiltrate Shrike must join them. Shrike cannot join them because the terminators cannot be legally deployed before him in order for him to be "placed within 2" coherency".

 

Where is the page number and quote saying shrike may join a unit and break the order on p48?

 

I admit this is a grey area and most likely not rules as intended.. But I'm not at all convinced that my side of the RAW aspect is wrong. I intend to argue this one into the dirt for the next round of 'Ard boyz with all the local Shrike fan-boys.

[ShinyRhino]

Wooooow, Crassus.

 

You're missing the whole WITH THEM part. Shrike deploys WITH the Terminators. At the same time. Which means he's part of the unit he joins, no matter what order you place them on the table.

 

Arguing this with someone is likely to get you laughed out of the building. It's the whole POINT of the character, for Pete's sake!

[Brother Crassus]

I'm not missing anything. Shrike's entry says to refer to the rulebook, which I have. There is no rule for deploying "at the same time". Infiltrate grants Shrike and the unit he attached to in reserve to out-flank. The rules for deployment and characters attaching to units DO NOT allow you to infiltrate any unit you please.. It doesn't mention "at the same time" anywhere in the Rulebook. So please back up your claims.

 

I've given page numbers, quotes and explanations for my arguments.

 

I'm still waiting for page numbers and quotes to tell me that my argument is wrong.

 

And telling me I'll be laughed at for arguing a correct (thus far) interpretation of the rule isn't very nice.. I'm not attacking anyone for failing to make a good argument. Why are you?

[Bannus]

Where in the rules does it state that the other unit Shrike joins must be deployed on the table first?

 

It doesn't.

 

"Shrike and models in his squad benefit from infiltrate..."

 

So his rules say he can, and you say he can't - how are you not violating RAW right there?

 

Yes, it does refer to the main rulebook. The main rulebook also states that a unit with Infiltrate cannot confer that ability on a unit that doesn't have it - yet Shrike's rules say you can. So there are some obvious exceptions at work here.

 

Ergo: Shrike and the unit he joins are deployed together on the table as a single unit during deployment as infiltrators. It fits all of the criteria and "violates" the fewest rules. There are some exceptions - but that is because Shrike's rules are SPECIAL. He wouldn't be a Special Character if he didn't have special rules.

 

Shrike's rules do not say that he can only outflank if the unit he joins does not have Infiltrate already.

 

People try to think too much about the rules - and twist them to the point that they don't make sense.

"Shrike really can't do that because of this, this and this...." - yet they miss that his rules say "yes, he can".

[ShinyRhino]

And telling me I'll be laughed at for arguing a correct (thus far) interpretation of the rule isn't very nice.. I'm not attacking anyone for failing to make a good argument. Why are you?

 

I'm sorry if my statement came off as an attack on your person. It was not intended to be so.

 

But the strict RAW adherence you've aiming at here because of what seems to be personal bias against a character is just...wrong. By that line of thinking, if the Codex entry for the Vanguard Veteran squad stated that all models were armed with a "chainswor" (due to poor editing and spellchecking), then one adhering so rigidly to RAW would not only prohibit me from swapping their "chainswor" for a power weapon because the upgrade requires replacing a "chainsword", but also deny me a +1 attack because "chainswor" isn't defined in the Codex, or any rulebook.

There is such a thing as the "spirit of the game", and such blatant rules-lawyering in the face of common sense interpretation of the rules headshots the spirit of the game, making it not worth playing.

Under your argument, the only unit Shrike could deploy with would be a unit of Scouts. Think about how incredibly purposeless that is. Why would the famed commander of a rapid-strike chapter, who uses a JUMP PACK, be restricted to deploying only with footborne SCOUTS?

[Coyote]

Wow. I'd ignored this for a while. Now I see why. Please allow me to jump in, since I think things got unintentionally personal.

A. the only way a character can attach to a unit is by being placed within 2" coherency of them. On page 48 it says "Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them" That means they need to already be on the table in order for the character to join them.

 

B. The only way for Shrike to be placed within 2" coherency according to the rules is if they are already on the table.

 

C. In order for them to already be on the table, they would have had to have infiltrate to begin with. Page 92 "In all three types of deployment, the sequence is the same. First the players deploy their forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that chose to use their ‘infiltrate’ special rule)." A unit cannot have gained infiltrate from Shrike, unless he was placed in coherency with them. That cannot occur, unless the unit has already been placed on the board. That unit cannot be infiltrated, unless shrike is already attached, which cannot occur.

 

D. In order for that unit to gain infiltrate, Shrike had to join them. Which he cannot do outside of normal deployment or reserves.

 

It's all there in black and white. The rulebook doesn't mention anything about characters and units attaching to them being "deployed at the same time"

 

So heres the sequence to clear it up:

1. Deploy forces: Characters may attach to units that are deployed by being within 2" coherency or held in reserve

2. Deploy infiltrators: Terminators try to deploy, but cannot since they do not have infiltrate. In order to gain infiltrate Shrike must join them. Shrike cannot join them because the terminators cannot be legally deployed before him in order for him to be "placed within 2" coherency".

I believe that this is misguided. While

RAW

might hold that we are one word or phrase from stating that characters may be joined to units pre-game,

RAI

clearly indicates that this is so. Justification for this can be found on

pg

94 of the BRB, paragraph 3.

 

Based on this, any ICs in Reserves must be declared as to which units they are to join, if any. This act of joining them makes that the IC's "unit".

 

Since declaration is done pre-game, one can assume that the same must apply to all units prior to their deployment on the board. Essentially, all units start in Reserves (as seen in Planetstrike). Pre-game deployment is simply their first "move" onto the board. Further justification for this can be found in paragraphs 4 & 5 of the same reference.

 

Greater justification still may be seen in rules for Deep Strike on

pg

95, paragraph 2. The

RAW

interpretation above would play merry havoc with effects like Gate of Infinity by implying that the act of Deep Striking removed the unit from coherency with the Librarian. :D *shakes head* :huh: That's a rather extreme example, but I believe we can all agree that it would not compute.

 

No. This argument is an elegant, well-thought bit of logic. But it remains rules lawyering of the highest order. It breaks with

RAI

so deeply that it violates common sense. And common sense is handled by the rule which is listed on

pg

2, paragraph 1, which trumps all.