Using Shrike.

[Pyriel]

I'm not missing anything. Shrike's entry says to refer to the rulebook, which I have. There is no rule for deploying "at the same time". Infiltrate grants Shrike and the unit he attached to in reserve to out-flank. The rules for deployment and characters attaching to units DO NOT allow you to infiltrate any unit you please.. It doesn't mention "at the same time" anywhere in the Rulebook. So please back up your claims.

 

I've given page numbers, quotes and explanations for my arguments.

 

I'm still waiting for page numbers and quotes to tell me that my argument is wrong.

 

And telling me I'll be laughed at for arguing a correct (thus far) interpretation of the rule isn't very nice.. I'm not attacking anyone for failing to make a good argument. Why are you?

Crassus is 100% correct!

 

But then we have:

"Shrike and models in his squad benefit from infiltrate..."

Which is also correct.

GW made a typo saying shrike can deploy a squad in an illegal way (no infiltrators gain infiltrate) and this contradicts the core rule book on the attaching SC rules.

 

1: Yes shrikes squad benefits from infiltrate BUT only AFTER said squad joins up with shrike!

2: In order to join up with shrike said unit must be deployed within 2 inches from shrike.

 

So technically speaking shrike gives any unit infiltrating but only in their own delpoyment zone.

Looking at it from a logical point shrike CAN make terminators infiltrate, not because shrikes rules are following the rulebook but because everything points out to the fact that GW intended shrike to infiltrate any unit but failed to go through the fine print in shrikes entry that disagrees with the core rulebook.

 

For any and all gaming purposes shrike does infiltrate termintors BUT it is still correct to throw up the rule book and claim otherwise and be backed by the same very rulebook although as said, this was unintentional on GWs part and two rule lines contradict one another when looked upon closely.

 

Logics dictate that had GW not meant for shrike to infiltrate non infiltrating units the entry would look very different or at least clearly say that shrike may only infiltrate with infiltrating units.

This is just one of all the small pesky rule typos the codexes and rule book is full of.

[Coyote]

@Pyriel - I take it that you didn't read my reply to Crassus' argument (above). In reply, I have also listed chapter and verse from the BRB.

[Hellios]

Unless GWs intention was to allow him to Outflank non-infiltrating units but be able to infiltrate with other units that could already infiltrate. As I see shrike as attacking from behind and that goes pretty well with out-flank :< this is one of the many issues that GW needs to erattas with rather than the obvious can my Dark Angels captain have 3 weapons?

[Bannus]

Let's not forget that there is nothing in the rules that indicates that the squad Shrike attaches to must be deployed prior to Shrike himself.

 

He is part of the squad by simply being deployed within 2" of them. NOTE: Nothing in the rules indicates that this is done after the other squad has been deployed. There is no "initiative order" for when a character joins a squad. So if Shrike and said squad are deployed together at the same time during the phase of deployment when infiltrators are deployed, then what rule gets broken?

[Brother Crassus]

Its pretty simple, Shrike has to be placed within 2" coherency. In order to be in coherency the terminators would have already had to be on the table. In order to already be on the table, they had to gain infiltrate which they did not get because Shrike wasn't within 2" coherency at the time of their deployment.

 

I'm willing to concede neither side is 100% right.. Would I allow this in "normal" tournament play? absolutely. Will I allow it in 'ard boyz which is cut-throat nasty play? Definately not.

 

It's a grey area and needs faq'd. GW really needs to get on the ball with proper faq's.. The marine codex is a mess and just full of problems like this.

 

Coyote: Declarations are done for characters attaching to units left in reserve, which shrike may do and out-flank with. It doesn't say anything about declarations otherwise. Only reserves. I'm playing 40k, not planetstrike. So using planetstrike as a source of rules to "justify" it doesn't fly. Nor does throwing out RAI, a person can't argue intent.. I could equally say the designers didnt "intend" for you to infiltrate 10 terminators. Without a magic mirror or mind-reading powers, that can't be point of debate.

 

And no common sense is violated at all. Both sides can be "correct".

 

 

If one wants to argue from a fluff aspect, out-flanking makes more sense anyways with Shrikes famed style of "fighting behind enemy lines" which would be closer to out-flanking than infiltrating. But that holds just as little water as saying rules as intended.

[Brother Crassus]

And telling me I'll be laughed at for arguing a correct (thus far) interpretation of the rule isn't very nice.. I'm not attacking anyone for failing to make a good argument. Why are you?

 

I'm sorry if my statement came off as an attack on your person. It was not intended to be so.

 

But the strict RAW adherence you've aiming at here because of what seems to be personal bias against a character is just...wrong. By that line of thinking, if the Codex entry for the Vanguard Veteran squad stated that all models were armed with a "chainswor" (due to poor editing and spellchecking), then one adhering so rigidly to RAW would not only prohibit me from swapping their "chainswor" for a power weapon because the upgrade requires replacing a "chainsword", but also deny me a +1 attack because "chainswor" isn't defined in the Codex, or any rulebook.

There is such a thing as the "spirit of the game", and such blatant rules-lawyering in the face of common sense interpretation of the rules headshots the spirit of the game, making it not worth playing.

Under your argument, the only unit Shrike could deploy with would be a unit of Scouts. Think about how incredibly purposeless that is. Why would the famed commander of a rapid-strike chapter, who uses a JUMP PACK, be restricted to deploying only with footborne SCOUTS?

 

 

I actually have a large ravenguard army led by shrike.. I use him correctly, and out-flank with any unit of my choosing. How is that a personal bias against him? If people could prove with RAW that he could infiltrate with more than telling me I have to base it on a assumption.. I'd gladly do so. I can't prove that I can do so, so I don't use him in conventional tournament play with the intention of infiltrating whatever I want.

 

And as I said, in "normal" tournament play I'll allow anyone to infiltrate whatever they like. Hell, infiltrate two squads for all I care. It won't help them and puts them in range faster. But for 'ard boyz, its all about winning by the rules.

 

My army can be found here:

My Ravenguard

[Coyote]

Its pretty simple, Shrike has to be placed within 2" coherency. In order to be in coherency the terminators would have already had to be on the table. In order to already be on the table, they had to gain infiltrate which they did not get because Shrike wasn't within 2" coherency at the time of their deployment....

This is becoming a discussion between an Immovable Object and an Irresistible Force. :lol:

 

RAW & RAI aside, I did as you requested and provided you with specific BRB entries to back-up my argument that ICs could and should be joined to units in the pre-game. You did not address these. I take this to mean that you don't agree. Fine.

 

Let's try two more instances of logic before I quit the topic:

You have said that you except that the IC can be joined to the unit

after

deployment for the purposes of Outflanking. This is possible because you agree that Shrike can be joined to the unit when Reserves are declared, thus conferring the Infiltrators rule to the unit. And Infiltrating units in Reserve receive the Outflanking move. In order for these things to occur, the character is declared joined to the unit

pre-game and pre-deployment

, when Reserves are declared. Thus,

you accept that characters can be joined to to units pre-game

. If you accept that ICs can be joined to a unit pre-game, or at least pre-deployment, then Shrike can confer his Infiltrators rule to a unit he has joined prior to the deployment of Infiltrating units. This would allow you to thus deploy a unit of Terminators as Infiltrators normally.

Alternatively, you can force someone's hand. It's jerky, but here goes:

We all agree that Reserves are declared before troops are deployed. We similarly agree that, by not declaring Shrike and his intended unit to be in Reserves, they must be deployed normally. After deploying all of your other troops, you could deploy Shrike. Then deploy the first model of his intended unit within 2". The moment that first model hits the board, the unit gains the rule

ex post facto

; meaning that once on the board, it now complies with the Infiltrators rule. It can't magically go to Reserves and then Outflank. Reserves was locked down prior to deployment. This is the inverse of the instances cited on

pg

74, paragraph 3 and

pg

48, paragraph 8 of the BRB. But whereas the units previously lost the Special Rule, they now gain the said rule upon deployment.

Ok, I quit the subject.

[Bannus]

Its pretty simple, Shrike has to be placed within 2" coherency. In order to be in coherency the terminators would have already had to be on the table.

There is where the logic fails. Can you point out the rule that requires the Terminators to be deployed first? I can't find it.

 

No, the Terminators do not have to be on the table already. The Terminators and Shrike may be deployed together. Nothing in the rules requires the squad to be deployed seperately from Shrike (kinda defeats the "joined" aspect if they are deployed seperately, doesn't it?)

 

The rule says:

 

Alternatively, an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them.

That is the rule. Nothing says "you deploy the squad....then deploy the IC."

 

"..being deployed in coherency..." means just what it says - you set up all of the models within 2" of each other. Claiming this means you set up the squad first then later on attach the IC is your private interpretation - the rules make no such claim.

 

Shrike's rules:

Shrike (and models in his squad) benefit from the infiltrate special rule (see Warhammer 40,000 rulebook).

 

It says what it means and means what it says - Shrike and the unit he has joined may infiltrate - period. Not just Outflank (like Khan's rules state), but infiltrate.

 

How - by RAW - can you draw any other conclusion?

[Brother Crassus]

Let's try two more instances of logic before I quit the topic:

You have said that you except that the IC can be joined to the unit

after

deployment for the purposes of Outflanking. This is possible because you agree that Shrike can be joined to the unit when Reserves are declared, thus conferring the Infiltrators rule to the unit. And Infiltrating units in Reserve receive the Outflanking move. In order for these things to occur, the character is declared joined to the unit

pre-game and pre-deployment

, when Reserves are declared. Thus,

you accept that characters can be joined to to units pre-game

. If you accept that ICs can be joined to a unit pre-game, or at least pre-deployment, then Shrike can confer his Infiltrators rule to a unit he has joined prior to the deployment of Infiltrating units. This would allow you to thus deploy a unit of Terminators as Infiltrators normally.

 

Characters may not attach to units pre-game.. Nor can they do so pre-deployment.

 

The only time I accept characters can join units pre-deployment is when they are in reserve as stated in the rules. If a unit enters reserve instead of deployment they are given the option of out-flanking (due to shrike), not attaching shrike and teleporting (due to being terminators) or walking onto the board (due to being in reserve). Holding a unit in reserve does not entitle it to later be deployed as an infiltrator due to the declaration of entering reserve.

 

Alternatively I can be jerky and force someone's hand.

They Infiltrate a unit with shrike, they are past declaring who enters reserve and have deployed their unit illegally. Shrike may now infiltrate by himself, or he may enter reserve and walk on from the board edge (since declaring reserves/flanking/deepstriking is now over), and his unit walks on from the board edge as per reserve rules.

[Brother Crassus]

How - by RAW - can you draw any other conclusion?

 

 

By reading english, the same as you. Neither side is right. We're both reading it the same way and getting a different ruling from it. Chalk it up to poor editing and sloppy writing on GW's part. Thats nothing new.

 

By saying he must be placed within 2" coherency tells me the unit needs to be there already, how can he be placed in coherency of a unit that isn't there?

Being allowed to deploy the unit at the same time allows for your argument. Following the rulebook statement of placing within coherency allows for my argument.

 

Thats where I'm getting it from and what you are failing to understand. I can see your point, try for a second to see mine.

 

And as I've said 3 times now, I'm willing to concede neither side is right. But I'm not taking your ruling as RAW because I feel its incorrect.

[The Mystic]

From what I have determined after reading this topic and reading the rules it appears to me the distiction is based on 2 points of view as how deployment works

 

Firstly: Setting the stage!

 

This is the view that all units are deployed and present on the table all at the same time with no linear deployment of units from a rules stand point. This would allow for Shrike and his unit to both benefit from the infiltrate rule as they would be deployed on the table at the same time as would troops, elites,etc per that interpretation.

 

Secondly: Literally!

 

This is the view that unless the unit is physically on the table before Shrike then the unit cannot benefit from the infiltrate rule through a linear deployment method ( eg. first: troops, second: elites, etc.) from a rules stand point. This method would deny the infiltration to the unit per that interpretation.

 

As neither method, as far as I can see, is made clear in the rulebook it becomes a very grey area.

 

Personally I would have to vote for the first interpretation on the basis of sportsmanship and RAI as I really would see no point in Shrike otherwise.

 

^_^

[JamesI]

Perhaps we should bump this question over to the official rules forum to get more opinions?

[ShinyRhino]

What's to keep me from picking up my Shrike model in my left hand, my five Terminators in my right, placing both hands together, and then plascing all those models on the table in one gesture?

[Bannus]

By saying he must be placed within 2" coherency tells me the unit needs to be there already, how can he be placed in coherency of a unit that isn't there?

 

If it said "....by deploying the IC within coherency of the unit..." - I would agree with you. that would mean the squad is placed first, then the IC.

 

But it doesn't. It says "...by being deployed..." - which indicates a single action or state - that it happens all at the same time.

 

So, you see....it is quite clear in the wording.

[ShinyRhino]

Perhaps we should bump this question over to the official rules forum to get more opinions?

 

Or we could just close the topic entirely, since it has drifted FAR from my original purpose of posting it. ;)

[JamesI]

If it said "....by deploying the IC within coherency of the unit..." - I would agree with you. that would mean the squad is placed first, then the IC.

 

But it doesn't. It says "...by being deployed..." - which indicates a single action or state - that it happens all at the same time.

 

So, you see....it is quite clear in the wording.

I agree with this interpretation.