IA: The Knights Seraphic

[DarkGuard]

Full review of entire article, and edited accordingly. Name changes for Council Three (Redemptor Captain and First Captain) have been incorporated fully.

 

At this time whenever I manage to get round to editing this IA I'm not changing much, and so I think I have come to the limits of my proofreading skills at the moment. Unless someone can think of serious plot holes or issues in the fluff, or can point out big grammar mistakes then I think I shall leave this project me. I'd imagine that like an artist with a painting, you could go on forever but at some time you have to draw the line and stop.

 

Unless there are major issues, would it be worth be considering submitting this to the Librarium? (If that's how it works, I don't know exactly.)

[Ace Debonair]

Well, I've gone back through it and I can't see anything that desperately needs changing.

 

I don't see any reason not to try and put these guys in the Librarium.

 

Librarium submission guide :)

And here's how to do so. :)

[DarkGuard]

Well, I've gone back through it and I can't see anything that desperately needs changing.

 

I don't see any reason not to try and put these guys in the Librarium.

 

Librarium submission guide ;)

And here's how to do so. :)

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence and the link, I'll get right to it and see what those guys say ;)

 

EDIT: Just submitted it, wish me (and my Knights) luck :)

Edited March 4, 2010 by DarkGuard

[Octavulg]

The Knights of Sieraph were formed during the 7th Founding, towards the end of the 32nd Millennium from the geneseed of the most venerable Dark Angels Chapter. Interrogator-Chaplain Atonius led the veteran training cadre that would seek to build the fledgling Chapter. Initially recruits were sourced from a number of planets in the Segmentum Tempestus, most notably the feudal world of Ciasus. The children of the chivalric Knightly Orders such as the Seraphic Knights proved strong recruits for the Chapter, and it was one from their number, Auriel Karnak, who would become the first Chapter Master.

 

Next four paragraphs, in one line: "...after he proved instrumental in helping save his home world from an Orkish incursion."

 

Oh look! More space for developing the Chapter's character! ;)

 

Indeed, I'd recommend it. Get to the meaty bits of the IA first - and the first battles are rarely the meaty bits. The space devoted to an event should be proportionate to its importance.

 

Karnak would then lead the Chapter on a successful crusade against the nearby Ork system that had plagued Ciasus, and all the population of the once beleaguered world rejoiced. The building of the Chapter continued, and a strong organisational structure was established. Once the Knights of Sieraph had reached full strength, Interrogator-Chaplain Atonius, told Karnak of the Dark Angel’s secret, and explained to him the Fallen and the Unforgiven’s sacred duty to capture each one and force them to repent. Atonius and his Veteran cadre then helped Karnak to construct his own Inner Circle.

 

Shortly after the secret was made known to Karnak, the Knights of Sieraph replied to a call for help from a nearby system, also under attack from Orks. In the middle of the campaign, Atonius received a communiqué from the Dark Angels detailing the location of a Fallen in a nearby system. Atonius urged Karnak to quit the battle and catch, or at least prevent the Fallen from escaping. Karnak refused, however, stating that if they did this the people he was honour-bound to protect would be overrun by the Orks. He sent a reserve Company instead, and two days later, after Imperial reinforcements had arrived, set off himself with a portion of his force.

 

However, upon arrival it became clear that the Fallen had vanished. Interrogator-Chaplain Atonius, infuriated, left for the Dark Angels with his Veteran cadre. Chapter Master Karnak returned to his quarters on Ciasus, and locked himself inside for a month, not eating, not sleeping. When he finally emerged, he called a meeting with his most senior officers. There he told them of the secret of the Fallen, and the Knights of Sieraph’s own duty in helping the other Unforgiven to catch them all. He also stated that he would not abandon his other duty of protecting the people and the Imperium to correct a past mistake that was not his own. Instead, Karnak split the Chapter. The majority of the Chapter would fight the enemies of the Imperium and protect it, like the Knights of old. However, the first and second Companies would both be very different Veteran Companies dedicated to pursuing the Fallen. In the middle of a campaign, it would be these forces that left, not the Battle Companies. And so it was that the Chapter was truly born.

 

Do not, under any circumstances, use the phrase "to catch them all". Pokemon has irredeemably tainted it.

 

A couple of problems with this - firstly, I can't see the Dark Angels allowing him to remain in command if he refused to go grab the Fallen. Karnak's still new to this whole thing, and is very replacable. Indeed, that'd seem a sign that the Chapter was unready to head out on its own. I would have expected a bonk on the head from a Crozius and a new Chapter Master. Frankly, the whole thing screams "test of loyalty", though that may not be how you originally intended it. It also feels a little off that he'd tell the rest of the Chapter - not all the marines will be trustworthy.

 

Secondly...my god! A first and second company dedicated to the pursuit and capture of the Fallen! How unlike anything the Dark Angels have done before! ^_^ It would make more sense if they were preexisting, IMO. Trying to present them as new concepts (which is how it comes across right now) doesn't work.

 

Honestly, I think it'd make more sense for him to actually take off, see the damage it did, then commit the various halves of the Chapter to their pursuits. It'd also make more sense, IMO, to keep the rest of the Chapter in the dark regarding the Fallen - telling them carries a lot of risk, both possibly from the DA and possibly from the Imperium should one of them decide he's more loyal to that than the Chapter. The Inner Circle protects from within as well as without.

 

Also, him having committed an error than trying to atone has delicious symmetry with the whole concept of the Fallen in the first place. And there's nothing tastier than getting all artsy and symmetrical.

 

NB. The Redemption Fleets account for only sixty veterans of the 1st Company. The other forty members of the 1st Company are spread out among the Battle and Reserve Companies in five to ten squads, offering experience alongside the other squads of the Company.

 

Take out the NB. Not the sort of thing that goes in IAs. Note that the CONTENT is fine, just don't use the NB. :P

 

If the Chaplains feel that the Fallen is truly repentant, then the dishonoured warrior will be given a chance to prove his worth in front of the Emperor’s eyes. An honour duel will occur, and if the Fallen wins, then his life will be spared. That Fallen will then be presented with the armour of the Chapter, and used in part of an elite squad, made up other Fallen and one of the Chapter Master’s own personal bodyguard, to constantly scour the galaxy and track down more Fallen.

 

Two from the bodyguard, I'd say. Wouldn't want them to shoot him in the back and skedaddle.

 

Also, this stuff should be introduced prior to this section. I'd recommend adding a section after Origins (with some kind of original title - Redemption would be an obvious one)...in fact...

 

OK. Here's what I think would work well - use Origins to take the Chapter up to where the training cadre departs. Have Karnak go after the Fallen when ordered, but regret it. This is considered proof of his readiness, cadre departs, but Karnak is troubled. Leads into the Redemption section, wherein he ponders in his room for weeks (as now), and when he leaves he comes to the conclusion that it is wrong to abandon the Imperium to serve a personal problem/grudge/whatever. However, it is also necessary to find and redeem the Fallen, both for their sake and for the sake of the loyalist Dark Angels. Thus, he splits the chapter much as now - First Company/Fleet (half DW, half RW - sixty men), Second Company/Fleet (like First), and the rest normal. The Redemptor Fleets seek out the Fallen, redeem them, then put them to work as part of the company - intelligence gathering, what have you - the RW equivalents would be logical choices to lead those groups, while the DW could still do the capturing. Explaining that properly should take a little while. I'd close with the tidbit about the meltabombs, though you should definitely have a few activated. Not many - just enough to make it clear the risk that is being taken.

 

That'd get things a lot more coherent, IMO. Keeping the Fallen part of the Redemptor Fleets feels a little more natural and makes it seem like they're more under the Chapter thumb, and keeps there from being too many unique organizations too quickly. Moving things up lets the whole thing flow more naturally and presents the chapters distinctive traits first, letting you spend the rest of the IA exploring them. Especially lets you get into the dual requirements of honor on the chapter - defend their heritage, but defend the Imperium as well.

 

Your thoughts on the above?

[DarkGuard]

Next four paragraphs, in one line: "...after he proved instrumental in helping save his home world from an Orkish incursion."

 

Oh look! More space for developing the Chapter's character!

 

Indeed, I'd recommend it. Get to the meaty bits of the IA first - and the first battles are rarely the meaty bits. The space devoted to an event should be proportionate to its importance.

 

Understood, keeping battles interesting in fiction can always be quite hard. Will look into changing that, and it would keep it short and sweet.

 

Do not, under any circumstances, use the phrase "to catch them all". Pokemon has irredeemably tainted it.

 

A couple of problems with this - firstly, I can't see the Dark Angels allowing him to remain in command if he refused to go grab the Fallen. Karnak's still new to this whole thing, and is very replacable. Indeed, that'd seem a sign that the Chapter was unready to head out on its own. I would have expected a bonk on the head from a Crozius and a new Chapter Master. Frankly, the whole thing screams "test of loyalty", though that may not be how you originally intended it. It also feels a little off that he'd tell the rest of the Chapter - not all the marines will be trustworthy.

 

Secondly...my god! A first and second company dedicated to the pursuit and capture of the Fallen! How unlike anything the Dark Angels have done before! It would make more sense if they were preexisting, IMO. Trying to present them as new concepts (which is how it comes across right now) doesn't work.

 

Honestly, I think it'd make more sense for him to actually take off, see the damage it did, then commit the various halves of the Chapter to their pursuits. It'd also make more sense, IMO, to keep the rest of the Chapter in the dark regarding the Fallen - telling them carries a lot of risk, both possibly from the DA and possibly from the Imperium should one of them decide he's more loyal to that than the Chapter. The Inner Circle protects from within as well as without.

 

Also, him having committed an error than trying to atone has delicious symmetry with the whole concept of the Fallen in the first place. And there's nothing tastier than getting all artsy and symmetrical.

 

Damn that Ash Ketchum <_<

 

I see you're what you mean by the Dark Angels not letting him remain in office if he refused, at the moment it does seem a bit of an arbitrary decision intended to drive the plot along with no proper explanation. Without stealing ideas your points and better and I'll incorporate them, as well as fixing up the Redemption Fleet concepts.

 

I never meant for the Chapter as a whole to know about the Fallen, so I apologize if it comes across like that. In regards to the Chapter it is only the Company Captains, Chaplains (all of them, we don't have an Interrogator variant here) and the Librarians. The Redemption Fleets would know the basics as well, and so will the Command Squads, no one else will know about it.

 

Understand what you mean by the symmetry of Karnak, I'll add all of that in. Plus, I think it would lead to a stronger understanding of why he is so concerned with these dual roles if he couldn't take failing at one of them for the other, and with the deaths of thousands on his hands (that will be how he sees it) then it gives a stronger reason for him to be more radical.

 

Take out the NB. Not the sort of thing that goes in IAs. Note that the CONTENT is fine, just don't use the NB.

 

Understood, that will come out. I don't know why I've never thought to take that out before, tired I suppose :P

 

Two from the bodyguard, I'd say. Wouldn't want them to shoot him in the back and skedaddle.

 

Also, this stuff should be introduced prior to this section. I'd recommend adding a section after Origins (with some kind of original title - Redemption would be an obvious one)...in fact...

 

OK. Here's what I think would work well - use Origins to take the Chapter up to where the training cadre departs. Have Karnak go after the Fallen when ordered, but regret it. This is considered proof of his readiness, cadre departs, but Karnak is troubled. Leads into the Redemption section, wherein he ponders in his room for weeks (as now), and when he leaves he comes to the conclusion that it is wrong to abandon the Imperium to serve a personal problem/grudge/whatever. However, it is also necessary to find and redeem the Fallen, both for their sake and for the sake of the loyalist Dark Angels. Thus, he splits the chapter much as now - First Company/Fleet (half DW, half RW - sixty men), Second Company/Fleet (like First), and the rest normal. The Redemptor Fleets seek out the Fallen, redeem them, then put them to work as part of the company - intelligence gathering, what have you - the RW equivalents would be logical choices to lead those groups, while the DW could still do the capturing. Explaining that properly should take a little while. I'd close with the tidbit about the meltabombs, though you should definitely have a few activated. Not many - just enough to make it clear the risk that is being taken.

 

That'd get things a lot more coherent, IMO. Keeping the Fallen part of the Redemptor Fleets feels a little more natural and makes it seem like they're more under the Chapter thumb, and keeps there from being too many unique organizations too quickly. Moving things up lets the whole thing flow more naturally and presents the chapters distinctive traits first, letting you spend the rest of the IA exploring them. Especially lets you get into the dual requirements of honor on the chapter - defend their heritage, but defend the Imperium as well.

 

You have good points, as always Octavulg, and thank you for taking the time to read and comment this IA. Again, I'll put it in, it's really good and as usual your ideas on this far transcend those I was trying to express. I hope you don't feel I'm relying too much on your ideas to get this IA working.

 

Just a couple more question, is it now easier to read, with less repetition and less grammar mistakes?

 

Also, your comments on battles, should I cut out or tone down the Hive Fleet Leviathan battle? I quite like it in there as it places where the KoS are at this present time, but if you feel it is just over long or not necessary I can take it out.

 

Again, thank you as always for taking the time to read and comment.

 

EDIT: Also, what are you views on numbers in IA articles? I toned down the numbers to just using them for Companies ie. 1st and 3rd Company, rather than actual numbers. However, would it be better to not use numbers at all, even for Companies ie first and third Company? Thanks.

Edited March 6, 2010 by DarkGuard

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Personally, I wouldn't use numeric representations of numbers (because numeric numbers seems a bit off), and instead use First Company.

[DarkGuard]

Personally, I wouldn't use numeric representations of numbers (because numeric numbers seems a bit off), and instead use First Company.

 

Yeah, I see what you mean. I was originally using them for place holders and then they slipped me by. Will sort them out asap.

[Octavulg]

Understood, keeping battles interesting in fiction can always be quite hard. Will look into changing that, and it would keep it short and sweet.

 

It's not a matter of interest (though I admit I find battle accounts pretty dull). It's a matter of what's important about the chapter - usually, the cut and thrust of a particular battle isn't it.

 

Damn that Ash Ketchum tongue.gif

 

He's a smug little bastard, isn't he. Wouldn't last a day as a Space Marine.

 

I see you're what you mean by the Dark Angels not letting him remain in office if he refused, at the moment it does seem a bit of an arbitrary decision intended to drive the plot along with no proper explanation. Without stealing ideas your points and better and I'll incorporate them, as well as fixing up the Redemption Fleet concepts.

 

I never meant for the Chapter as a whole to know about the Fallen, so I apologize if it comes across like that. In regards to the Chapter it is only the Company Captains, Chaplains (all of them, we don't have an Interrogator variant here) and the Librarians. The Redemption Fleets would know the basics as well, and so will the Command Squads, no one else will know about it.

 

Understand what you mean by the symmetry of Karnak, I'll add all of that in. Plus, I think it would lead to a stronger understanding of why he is so concerned with these dual roles if he couldn't take failing at one of them for the other, and with the deaths of thousands on his hands (that will be how he sees it) then it gives a stronger reason for him to be more radical.

 

The idea was presented to be used, don't worry. I don't offer ideas I'm not willing to have someone else take. Though I reserve the right to go back and take them if they don't, of course. That's where the Bronze Prophets came from.

 

And it really did come across as the whole Chapter being told. I'd check that wording.

 

You have good points, as always Octavulg, and thank you for taking the time to read and comment this IA. Again, I'll put it in, it's really good and as usual your ideas on this far transcend those I was trying to express. I hope you don't feel I'm relying too much on your ideas to get this IA working.

 

The ideas are mostly yours. They're just moved around.

 

Order of events and presentation is actually far more important (in some ways) than the nuts-and-bolts writing.

 

Just a couple more question, is it now easier to read, with less repetition and less grammar mistakes?

 

Well, I read more of it. ;)

 

It was pretty good. Get things finalized, then we'll talk grammar. Honestly, I don't really remember the previous draft well enough to judge. :lol:

 

Also, your comments on battles, should I cut out or tone down the Hive Fleet Leviathan battle? I quite like it in there as it places where the KoS are at this present time, but if you feel it is just over long or not necessary I can take it out.

 

Nah. Adds color, works OK, it's at the end so people aren't obligated to read it to understand the Chapter. A little more detail would arguably be better (not now. Finish the IA first. :o). Has a few shades of the Battle for/of Macragge, though.

 

Again, thank you as always for taking the time to read and comment.

 

Happy to do it. It's coming together well. Good that you've found a direction to move in.

 

EDIT: Also, what are you views on numbers in IA articles? I toned down the numbers to just using them for Companies ie. 1st and 3rd Company, rather than actual numbers. However, would it be better to not use numbers at all, even for Companies ie first and third Company? Thanks.

 

Best to use First, etc, in formal writing in general. IAs are formal writing.

 

Oh, when you hit full edit, you can take out the bit on the thread that says "Update 04.03.2009". Might want to do that.

[DarkGuard]

It's not a matter of interest (though I admit I find battle accounts pretty dull). It's a matter of what's important about the chapter - usually, the cut and thrust of a particular battle isn't it.

 

I would agree with you here, especially in the case of DA Successors where it's more their relation with their parent Chapter and the Fallen that defines them IMO.

 

The idea was presented to be used, don't worry. I don't offer ideas I'm not willing to have someone else take. Though I reserve the right to go back and take them if they don't, of course. That's where the Bronze Prophets came from.

 

And it really did come across as the whole Chapter being told. I'd check that wording.

 

Fair enough, thank you for allowing me to use them.

 

I've looked into the whole Chapter being told and I'd imagine it came from either him redeploying his entire forces to the planet with the Fallen on it (originally he sent just one Company), and perhaps him calling his Captains together after he missed (now caught) the Fallen and told them about it. I've edited it to make it clear that there is an Inner Circle and that it is only the Inner Circle that knows of the Fallen, (plus a couple of exceptions). Hopefully this shouldn't cause any more confusion but if it does I'll look into it.

 

The ideas are mostly yours. They're just moved around.

 

Order of events and presentation is actually far more important (in some ways) than the nuts-and-bolts writing.

 

Well, I read more of it.

 

It was pretty good. Get things finalized, then we'll talk grammar. Honestly, I don't really remember the previous draft well enough to judge.

 

That certainly is encouraging. Since I've been writing essays more I feel my writing has improved. I've always looks to get the background sorted out first, but it's also handy to get grammar as good as possible during this stage, saves time at the end.

 

Nah. Adds color, works OK, it's at the end so people aren't obligated to read it to understand the Chapter. A little more detail would arguably be better (not now. Finish the IA first. ). Has a few shades of the Battle for/of Macragge, though

.

 

More detail? Will work on that after the IA is finished. I'd imagine most battles against the Tyranids have shades of Macragge, there's not much else you'd do against a horde army then hole up in your bunkers and shoot them. I'd imagine it's the intervention from the Redemption Fleet and 3rd Company that does that more than anything, may have to reconsider that.

 

Best to use First, etc, in formal writing in general. IAs are formal writing.

 

Already done all that, thanks for your view on it as well though :lol:

 

Thanks again for your help, I've pretty much finished all the suggestions you've given, so am awaiting further analysis.

[Octavulg]

You're back in the massive queue of articles I'm picking at. Don't worry. I'll get back to you. :lol:

[Ace Debonair]

Damn that Ash Ketchum tongue.gif

 

He's a smug little bastard, isn't he. Wouldn't last a day as a Space Marine.

 

Agreed. A Space Marine would have caught them all on his first day, and discovered a hundred new ones the day after.

 

Back on topic:

There's a bit in the Geneseed section that reads rather unusually.

The Knights of Sieraph are descended from the Primarch Lion El’Jonson, and so share the same geneseed as the Dark Angels and other Unforgiven Chapters. They are aware of this link to the Lion, and so hold him as the greatest Primarch to have lived.

It seems like they go: "Oh, Lion El'Jonson was our primarch? That makes him the best Primarch, then!"

I'm not saying they shouldn't venerate him, but it might be more in keeping with the character of the chapter if they consider him the greatest for a less self-focused reason. :lol:

[DarkGuard]

Back on topic:

There's a bit in the Geneseed section that reads rather unusually.

The Knights of Sieraph are descended from the Primarch Lion El’Jonson, and so share the same geneseed as the Dark Angels and other Unforgiven Chapters. They are aware of this link to the Lion, and so hold him as the greatest Primarch to have lived.

It seems like they go: "Oh, Lion El'Jonson was our primarch? That makes him the best Primarch, then!"

I'm not saying they shouldn't venerate him, but it might be more in keeping with the character of the chapter if they consider him the greatest for a less self-focused reason. ^_^

 

It was my understanding that the Space Marines who are descended from a certain Primarch will hold that Primarch as the best above all others, with only the Emperor above him. It's a kind of honour, pride thing. We were brought into being by the geneseed of this Primarch, therefore he is better than the rest. I don't really think outward justification is needed in this circumstance.

 

Of course, I could slip in that the Lion was also originally a knight, so they like him a lot, and then about his tactical genius, and this is why they consider him the best Primarch. But I feel that the lineage alone is enough to justify that.

[Ace Debonair]

Of course, I could slip in that the Lion was also originally a knight, so they like him a lot, and then about his tactical genius, and this is why they consider him the best Primarch. But I feel that the lineage alone is enough to justify that.

 

Well, it's always nice to justify why you think something is better than something else, even for Space Marines. ^_^

[Ecritter]

Well ... he IS the best of the best after all. And he is, I may be wrong on this one, the only loyal Primarch to still be alive.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

We don't actually know where Russ or Vulkan are for one. I can't remember the others off the top of my head though. Some are dead, most are just 'missing' I think. Oh and we don't know if Guilliman is dead or alive, or actually healing in his stasis-but-perhaps-not-totally-stasis-field. Edited March 7, 2010 by Grey Hunter Ydalir

[Ecritter]

Yeah ... but we're Dark Angels, we don't care about them. ^_^

 

I think I was making a joke, well partially.

 

I think both sides are right on this one. The chapter would believe thier Primarch to be the best and feel they need to give no explantions. However, as I was told before by someone I will not mention, Marines don't write the IA .... so it is appropriate to tell just why they feel this way.

[DarkGuard]

Of course, I could slip in that the Lion was also originally a knight, so they like him a lot, and then about his tactical genius, and this is why they consider him the best Primarch. But I feel that the lineage alone is enough to justify that.

 

Well, it's always nice to justify why you think something is better than something else, even for Space Marines. :P

 

You have a point there, I'll get to work on that.

 

I think both sides are right on this one. The chapter would believe thier Primarch to be the best and feel they need to give no explantions. However, as I was told before by someone I will not mention, Marines don't write the IA .... so it is appropriate to tell just why they feel this way.

 

I agree with you as well, I'll get to telling everyone why the Lion is the best (knightly-hood and tactics that is).

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Over many years, Fallen were tracked down by the Redemption Fleet. Some repented to the Knights of Sieraph, and so Karnak decreed that these Fallen not to be cut down mercifully, but to be able to engage in a dual with the Chapter Champion to first blood. This dual is carried out with only the highest echelons of the Chapter as witnesses. If the Fallen wins the dual, then he will judged worthy in the, Emperor’s eyes, and is given the armour of the Chapter and the title, ‘Redeemed’. He then joins the Redemption Fleets, working alongside them to help further redeem him. However, the Chapter is not so naive to let the Redeemed walk free. Their armour contains a meltabomb, which will activate if the Redeemed dies, or through manual detonation by the Chapter Master himself. Unfortunately, the Chapter’s judgement is not infallible, and there have been some instances of meltabombs being detonated to prevent one of the Redeemed from reneging against the Chapter. If the Unforgiven or the Imperium discovers this secret, then the Knights of Sieraph would face certain extinction.

 

The main stumbling block that is sufficient to break my suspension of disbelief is this chunk of information right here.

 

The main premise of the chapter; struggling with duties to which they are sworn but can jeapoardise one another, is great and can stand on it's own with a bit more fleshing out and direction.

 

The 'redemption' of the fallen is a bit harder to pull off overall and much harder to write effectively. The reasoning behind it and execution of it in writing has to be very good to justify what is actually happening here. Unfortunately you haven't gotten there yet.

 

The fact is the decision is both too arbitrary and decided upon too early on in the chapters history to justify it given the sheer magnitude of the 'heresy' that they are committing.

 

The rest of the IA can be changed up as needed not that I think it does, it's just this core idea involved in your chapters characterisation is a bit shakey and is like a termite infestation to the supporting beams of the rest of it.

[DarkGuard]

Over many years, Fallen were tracked down by the Redemption Fleet. Some repented to the Knights of Sieraph, and so Karnak decreed that these Fallen not to be cut down mercifully, but to be able to engage in a dual with the Chapter Champion to first blood. This dual is carried out with only the highest echelons of the Chapter as witnesses. If the Fallen wins the dual, then he will judged worthy in the, Emperor’s eyes, and is given the armour of the Chapter and the title, ‘Redeemed’. He then joins the Redemption Fleets, working alongside them to help further redeem him. However, the Chapter is not so naive to let the Redeemed walk free. Their armour contains a meltabomb, which will activate if the Redeemed dies, or through manual detonation by the Chapter Master himself. Unfortunately, the Chapter’s judgement is not infallible, and there have been some instances of meltabombs being detonated to prevent one of the Redeemed from reneging against the Chapter. If the Unforgiven or the Imperium discovers this secret, then the Knights of Sieraph would face certain extinction.

 

The main stumbling block that is sufficient to break my suspension of disbelief is this chunk of information right here.

 

The main premise of the chapter; struggling with duties to which they are sworn but can jeapoardise one another, is great and can stand on it's own with a bit more fleshing out and direction.

 

The 'redemption' of the fallen is a bit harder to pull off overall and much harder to write effectively. The reasoning behind it and execution of it in writing has to be very good to justify what is actually happening here. Unfortunately you haven't gotten there yet.

 

The fact is the decision is both too arbitrary and decided upon too early on in the chapters history to justify it given the sheer magnitude of the 'heresy' that they are committing.

 

The rest of the IA can be changed up as needed not that I think it does, it's just this core idea involved in your chapters characterisation is a bit shakey and is like a termite infestation to the supporting beams of the rest of it.

 

I originally brought in the idea of the Fallen being used as servants of the Chapter to try and get a twist to the Chapter. At the surface these are noble knights struggling with dual duties, while underneath they are, like most DA Successors, secretive and not afraid to do anything to ensure those duties are carried out properly.

 

Of course, if the Redeemed jeopardise the IA I'd drop them, I much prefer the dual duties role and the Redemption Fleets. Half the reason for their inclusion was that even with the dual duties some felt the IA needed a little more.

 

To get the Redeemed to fit in, however, I could date their conception to a good few years after Karnak, I'm thinking 35th-37th Millennium, at least. The then Chapter Master is struck by the honour of one of the Fallen, of how he felt he was conducting his duty to the Emperor, and with consultation with the upper echelons of the Chapter decides to let him prove his worth to the Chapter. The Fallen wins the honour dual and is placed in a Redemption Fleet, and then this practise occurs, but only rarely. So in total there have been only 3 or 5 Redeemed.

 

The only problem I can see is that the Chapter would then undergo periods where they aren't handing in Fallen as much as the other Unforgiven to the Dark Angels. However, as the Fallen are so hard to come by that there are often periods of years, even centuries when one isn't found and then a load come around at once.

 

I agree I'll have to write this well to make it work, if I can't it might be better of me to leave it.

[Octavulg]

The Knights of Sieraph were formed during the Seventh Founding, towards the end of the Thirty-Second Millennium from the geneseed of the most venerable Dark Angels Chapter. Interrogator-Chaplain Atonius led the veteran training cadre that would seek to build the fledgling Chapter. Initially recruits were sourced from a number of planets in the Segmentum Tempestus, most notably the feudal world of Ciasus. The children of the chivalric Knightly Orders such as the Sieraphic Knights proved strong recruits for the Chapter, and it was one from their number, Auriel Karnak, who would become the first Chapter Master after he proved instrumental in repelling an Ork incursion on Ciasus. This planet became the Chapter’s homeworld, while Karnak named the fledgling Chapter the Knights of Sieraph, after his original Knightly Order.

 

What is Sieraph? If all these things are named after it, it should be more obvious. If you mean the angels, it's usually Seraph and Knights of Angel is bad grammar. :huh: Knights Seraphic would be fine, though.

 

The planet should be selected for a home world for a reason (preferably beyond the Chapter Master being from there) - so what's the reason?

 

Karnak would then lead the Chapter on a successful crusade against the nearby Ork system that had plagued Ciasus and the building of the Chapter continued. Once the Knights of Sieraph had reached full strength, Interrogator-Chaplain Atonius, told Karnak of the Dark Angel’s secret, and explained to him the Fallen and the Unforgiven’s sacred duty to force each one to repent. Atonius and his Veteran cadre then helped Karnak to construct his own Inner Circle.

 

For some reason, taking out the 'would' in the first sentence does wonders for this paragraph. I think it's because of the tenses. Also, a little more detail about the crusade. Not much. Just enough for color.

 

Shortly after the secret was made known to Karnak, the Knights of Sieraph replied to a call for help from a nearby system, also under attack from Orks. In the middle of the campaign, Atonius received a communiqué from the Dark Angels detailing the location of a Fallen in a nearby system. Atonius urged Karnak to quit the battle and pursue the Fallen, reminding Karnak of his ancient duty as a Son of the Lion. With a heavy heart, Karnak ordered the redeployment of his forces, and was successful in capturing the Fallen. However, the planet they had been defending was soon overrun by the Orks, and the civilian population slaughtered. Satisfied that Karnak was now ready to lead on his own, Atonius and his veteran cadre departed for the Dark Angels with the Fallen. Karnak was left on Ciasus with his Chapter, deeply troubled by the recent events.

 

I do think you'd be better off with them not finding the Fallen. Emphasizes the pointlessness of it all. Also further justifies the questioning on the part of Karnak - the Dark Angels are very good at instilling loyalty to the Chapter, and most (if not all) of them would honestly be OK with trading a Fallen for an unimportant planet. Him not being that way makes it feel like the DA didn't do their jobs right. Losses in order to expunge the shame of the Chapter are justifiable. Losses to chase down empty rumours, not so much.

 

If you prefer this way, it does work. It just feels like they shouldn't have left Karnak alone yet, and you'd expect them to be better at judging that sort of thing, what with not spilling the secret in ten thousand years.

 

When he returned, Karnak called to him his members of the Inner Circle, and repeated to them what he himself had pondered upon. His officers listened in wonderment at his proposal, one that would shape the Chapter for the rest of its existence. Karnak couldn’t break his vow to the Dark Angels, he couldn’t abandon the Hunt. They may not of have been at Caliban that day, but they owed it to their brother Chapters to help redeem the Dark Angels. However, Karnak could not allow this personal problem of the Unforgiven jeopardize their true meaning for existence, their true duty. He would not abandon the Imperium for some mistake that happened two thousand years ago.

 

Ten thousand.

 

Over many years, Fallen were tracked down by the Redemption Fleet. Some repented to the Knights of Sieraph, and so Karnak decreed that these Fallen not to be cut down mercifully, but to be able to engage in a dual with the Chapter Champion to first blood. This dual is carried out with only the highest echelons of the Chapter as witnesses. If the Fallen wins the dual, then he will judged worthy in the, Emperor’s eyes, and is given the armour of the Chapter and the title, ‘Redeemed’. He then joins the Redemption Fleets, working alongside them to help further redeem him. However, the Chapter is not so naive to let the Redeemed walk free. Their armour contains a meltabomb, which will activate if the Redeemed dies, or through manual detonation by the Chapter Master himself. Unfortunately, the Chapter’s judgement is not infallible, and there have been some instances of meltabombs being detonated to prevent one of the Redeemed from reneging against the Chapter. If the Unforgiven or the Imperium discovers this secret, then the Knights of Sieraph would face certain extinction.

 

You should explain why he let them live. I like the idea of them helping further their redemption/allowing those who actually did the sinning to atone for it, but if that's what you're after it's not coming through just yet.

 

You should also remember that the most successful DA Interrogator-Chaplain in their history has gotten something like twelve Fallen to repent. There won't be that many Fallen kicking about in the Fleets.

 

The Council of Three

An unofficial council of sorts has arisen in the Knights of Sieraph. It is composed of the three most senior Captains in the Chapter, the two Redemptor Captains, and the First Captain. The Redemptors are considered equals in the Redemption Fleets, each one controls one of these specialized formations, while the First Captain is seen as more superior to the other Captains, depsite him actually being Captain of the 3rd Company. This possibly stems from the fact that the First and Second Captains, the Redemptors, are removed from the rest of the Chapter's forces, and so the Third Captain is viewed as many other Chapters will view a First Captain. Together they form an unofficial council of equals under the Chapter Master, and are seen as some of the most heroic and powerful warriors in all of the Chapter bar the Chapter Master.

 

Why did this arise?

 

The Strike Cruisers, in addition to normal equipment such as launch bays, also contain teleporter technology. The extra power needed to use this technology results in the Strike Cruiser having a capacity of fifty marines. The Strike Cruiser contains two squads of ten veterans from the Second Company, who can be deployed on bikes, Land Speeders or utilising jump packs. The rest of the Strike Cruiser is occupied by six Terminator Squads from the First Company, each numbering five men, much like the Dark Angels’ Deathwing. The remaining veterans in the Redemption Fleets are found on the Gladius Frigates. Each of the three Gladius Frigates contains a ten man Second Company Squad. The

 

Teleporters aren't unusual on Space Marine ships. I wouldn't worry about it. BFG mentions them when listing the ways Space Marines get their troops around, with no indication that it's out-of-the-ordinary.

 

An individual battle cry that the Knights of Sieraph use has been recorded. It is an ancient battle cry, used by the old Knightly Order before Ciasus was chosen by the Chapter as its homeworld. This battle cry, usually said before entering battle, is as follows: ‘Non nobis sed patriae’, which roughly translates into: ‘Not for ourselves but for our country’. This battle cry is thought to reflect upon the Chapter’s large sense of duty not for themselves and their superiors, but rather the people they are sworn to protect.

 

The concept of country doesn't quite fit into 40K. For our patrimony would be a good, literal translation...for our charges?

 

* * *

 

Good. I think you're firmly into the polishing stage.

[DarkGuard]

Hi Octavulg, sorry for the delayed reply, waa away from home and without internet yesterday. Thank you again for finding time to comment.

 

What is Sieraph? If all these things are named after it, it should be more obvious. If you mean the angels, it's usually Seraph and Knights of Angel is bad grammar. tongue.gif Knights Seraphic would be fine, though.

 

The planet should be selected for a home world for a reason (preferably beyond the Chapter Master being from there) - so what's the reason?

 

Sieraph is a mysterious figure from Ciasus' legends, said to have been a mighty warrior from the past who founded the first of the Knightly Orders, the Seraphic Knights. The name Sieraph (pronounced Si-raf round about) is a spin on the Seraphs, and in legend many people likened him to an angel in features. I'm not saying he was a Primarch, rather he was a very successful warrior who's exploits were embellished. The Seraphic Knights is to give a distinction between the two. However, I would be open to the idea of switching the names, so the original warrior order is named the Knights of Sieraph after their founder, Sieraph, and the Chapter named the Knights Seraphic to tie them to the order and the world but also make them more universal in a sense. Thoughts?

 

The homeworld is a feudal planet with conflicting knightly orders who had been united to fight Orks for many years. Lots of fighting means good, strong Marines. I thought I had mentioned that in the first paragraph, or should I try and build on it more?

 

For some reason, taking out the 'would' in the first sentence does wonders for this paragraph. I think it's because of the tenses. Also, a little more detail about the crusade. Not much. Just enough for color.

 

First you tell me to cut down on battles and then build them up :P. I'll take would out, and will give a bit more detail on the crusade, without going over the top.

 

I do think you'd be better off with them not finding the Fallen. Emphasizes the pointlessness of it all. Also further justifies the questioning on the part of Karnak - the Dark Angels are very good at instilling loyalty to the Chapter, and most (if not all) of them would honestly be OK with trading a Fallen for an unimportant planet. Him not being that way makes it feel like the DA didn't do their jobs right. Losses in order to expunge the shame of the Chapter are justifiable. Losses to chase down empty rumours, not so much.

 

If you prefer this way, it does work. It just feels like they shouldn't have left Karnak alone yet, and you'd expect them to be better at judging that sort of thing, what with not spilling the secret in ten thousand years.

 

Yes, I can see how him missing the Fallen and loosing a planet would make for a stronger conviction in this sense of dual duties. However, would the Dark Angels still let him go solo if the Fallen weren't there? Or did you originally mean that the Dark Angels may have made up his presence, or it may have been the most unlikely rumour to test Karnak and see if he would go for the Fallen? If so then yes, it would be a test (I believe you mentioned that earlier) and would be better for the Dark Angels leaving him.

 

Ten thousand.

 

I'm writing this section kind of in the mind of Karnak, is that bad? So it's relating to it being the 32nd Millenium, and so the Horus Heresy would only have been around 2000 years ago wouldn't it? Unless my maths is appalling.

 

You should explain why he let them live. I like the idea of them helping further their redemption/allowing those who actually did the sinning to atone for it, but if that's what you're after it's not coming through just yet.

 

You should also remember that the most successful DA Interrogator-Chaplain in their history has gotten something like twelve Fallen to repent. There won't be that many Fallen kicking about in the Fleets.

 

Like I said to Grey Hunter Ydalir I'm considering cutting this section. However, if it still can be worked in I'll try to keep it working. My main thoughts at the moment is to make it newer, so pushing it back to around 35-7th Millenium. If I'm being honest I hadn't quite worked out why exactly they were using them. Originally it was to use their innate abilities to locate and attract other Fallen. However, your idea is also good, and is better. I like it too. So if I push back the date, make it a different Chapter Master who sanctions them, includes the idea of them atoning for their sins through helping the Knights, and then toning down the numbers used (2 or 3), should this be ok?

 

Why did this arise?

 

Circles within Circles. An earlier Chapter Master felt that it would be better for his two Redemption Captains to know more about the Fallen then others as they are leading the Hunt for the Chapter, while he also felt that the First Captain should also know the same as he is of equal status and having to pick up their slack on fighting the enemies of the Emperor. The Council of Three eventually became a kind of War Council if you like, and in the Circles with Circles are just below the Chief Librarian and Master of Sanctity, and ahead of the other Captains.

 

Plus its also a left over idea I liked from when I was naive and thinking of doing a loyalist Luna Wolves splinter Chapter :D

 

Teleporters aren't unusual on Space Marine ships. I wouldn't worry about it. BFG mentions them when listing the ways Space Marines get their troops around, with no indication that it's out-of-the-ordinary.

 

Worry about changing it or not? I was under the impression that teleports were very rare and not used much. If they're not unusual I'll take the extra power statement out then.

 

The concept of country doesn't quite fit into 40K. For our patrimony would be a good, literal translation...for our charges?

 

I pulled this out of the quotes section in the IA guide. Understand the country thing not fitting, charges would be better I agree.

 

Good. I think you're firmly into the polishing stage.

 

Thank you again for taking time to comment. I'll get this changed as soon as I have access to my laptop again.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Worry about changing it or not? I was under the impression that teleports were very rare and not used much. If they're not unusual I'll take the extra power statement out then.

 

When assaulting an enemy ship the Space Marines still use Thunderhawk Gunships as their primary method of attack or so I remember. Basically, in perfect conditions I don't think it's much of a problem and yes it would be present on just about all Astartes troop ships. However, battle-teleporting is a different kettle of fish which is why it is not used more often.

 

In essence, you should probably take it out.

[DarkGuard]

Worry about changing it or not? I was under the impression that teleports were very rare and not used much. If they're not unusual I'll take the extra power statement out then.

 

When assaulting an enemy ship the Space Marines still use Thunderhawk Gunships as their primary method of attack or so I remember. Basically, in perfect conditions I don't think it's much of a problem and yes it would be present on just about all Astartes troop ships. However, battle-teleporting is a different kettle of fish which is why it is not used more often.

 

In essence, you should probably take it out.

 

OK understood, I'll take that bit out. Thanks again :)

[Apothete]

When assaulting an enemy ship the Space Marines still use Thunderhawk Gunships as their primary method of attack or so I remember. Basically, in perfect conditions I don't think it's much of a problem and yes it would be present on just about all Astartes troop ships. However, battle-teleporting is a different kettle of fish which is why it is not used more often.

 

In essence, you should probably take it out.

 

It depends upon the Chapter in question, what's being assaulted, what the mission objectives are, and so on. There are plenty of situations where Thunderhawks would make sense, since you're probably forcing a landing zone and blowing your way in, but then it could also make sense to fire boarding torpedoes and bore in through the hull (e.g. Soul Drinkers and Blood Angels Omnibi), ram the other ship and use a specially adapted portion of the prow (e.g. the Space Wolf Omnibus), and teleporting Terminators aboard (e.g. Space Hulk).

 

Oh, and hey there, Dark Guard. It's good to see you're still plugging away at your Chapter.

[DarkGuard]

Oh, and hey there, Dark Guard. It's good to see you're still plugging away at your Chapter.

 

Yeah it's come a long way I feel, been fun writing it. Feel free to have a good look through tell me what you like and don't like :D