4 LasCannon Havock/Dev squad

[minigun762]

Considering the following bits of information:

1) Heavy armor (AV13/14) now require Melta weapons to be reliably taken out

2) 4+ cover saves are easy to get in the game

3) The LasCannon is almost always much more expensive then similar heavy weapons

4) The Predator and Obliterator both have the ability to move and fire atleast one LasCannon

 

So with that in mind, when, if ever, is it a good idea to take the 4 LasCannons squad?

The only thing that I can think of is durability. Predators are much cheaper, but they can be stunned/killed moderately easy. Obliterators are slightly more durable but can be downed by massed fire and subject to insta-death.

Killing 4-6 Marines (typically in cover)before you can get to the LasCannons is a big bonus, meaning you can suck up more firepower before losing your own.

But is that reason enough to use them?

[Moonsword]

When there's a lot of tanks that need to be introduced to the Emperor's blessed slivers of coherent light, one would assume.

 

1 in 6 lascannon shots will glance a Land Raider, and another 1 in 6 will penetrate it; 1 in 3 to do something unpleasant. 1 in 3 will penetrate AV 13, 1 in 6 will glance; 1 in 2. That's pretty reliable to my mind when you consider that there are 4 lascannons going downrange at a 3+ to hit. The fact that you can inflict instant death on anything that doesn't have T5 naturally is another fun option, allowing the squad to do something useful (if not terribly so) when it's not killing vehicles. As for whether it's worth the points... *shrugs* I dunno.

[Sneezypanda]

it doesnt seem like the extra one strength is worth 15 more points tacked on. but i tried downing side armor of a vindicator and 4 missile launchers, couldnt do it. so i would say if you know how to use havocs, then go right ahead and spend the points. but i feel if you dont have them in the right spot to start they are going to be useless.

[Sneezypanda]

it doesnt seem like the extra one strength is worth 15 more points tacked on. but i tried downing side armor of a vindicator and 4 missile launchers, couldnt do it. so i would say if you know how to use havocs, then go right ahead and spend the points. but i feel if you dont have them in the right spot to start they are going to be useless.

[Coyote]

I mentioned facing a Las/Plas Devastator Squad in one of the other threads. I have to say that, looking down the business end of those Lascannon sure changed my targeting priorities. Much more than I expected. I ended up dumping all of the fire from a TFC + an Ironclad (Hurricane + HF) into that squad on Turn 1 and only killed 6 models. So, after all that, I STILL was looking at the Las and Plasma cannons. Not fun. They promptly popped the Ironclad.

 

This experience gave me a profound new respect for these newly made Astartes. So much so, that I'll be using something like this (3xLas, 1xPlas, and just say 'No' to Combat Squad) soon. Yes, they're static. Yes, they die. Yes, draw fire like flies to ****. But anything that can take a beating like that and remain a threat deserves respect.

[Hackbar]

Sneezy,

I don't want to knock your experience, but that's hardly a good example. That's like me saying that because I rolled 1's to wound for 3 turns in a row, (true story, btw) krak missiles aren't good for hurting Carnifexes without Extended Carapace. 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, and ignoring armor saves are good odds. Against a Vindicator's side armor you should need 3+ to hit, (2+ for one with the sergeant helping) 3 to glance, 4+ to penetrate with missiles. 4 of those doing nothing useful is just bad luck, especially if you got more than one round of shooting. 4 lascannons would likely have made all the difference in the world. (2 to glance, 3+ to pen against Vindi side)

 

I actually am tempted to try a 4 lascannon squad for hunting MCs and transports next time I play. The odds sound good to me, and if it comes down to it with bolt pistols and a well-equipped sergeant the squad should do as well as a tac squad once there are no inviting targets left for the lascannon.

[Grey Mage]

Those squads are good against heavy enemy tanks, and enemy vehicle squadrons like Khans, Vypers, and Leman Russ's where extra hits will always find a use. Its also good for killing TDA, MegaNobz, and monstrous creatures.

 

Every time you splorch a meganob you got 40pts back... thats more than the lascannon. The ability to take out their battlewagon is just as important.

 

And remember... you can combat squad them. Now you have two squads with two lascannons each... and can fire at two targets. If your opponent has brought alot of armor this might be the more viable options... and rack up your KPs faster.

 

And lastly... never, ever ever forget your Signum- BS 5 on one paultry shot can make all the difference in the world some days.

[minigun762]

I actually am tempted to try a 4 lascannon squad for hunting MCs and transports next time I play. The odds sound good to me, and if it comes down to it with bolt pistols and a well-equipped sergeant the squad should do as well as a tac squad once there are no inviting targets left for the lascannon.

 

I'd love to hear how it works for you. Figure most armies out there are atleast mechanized, and quite a few run MCs or heavy armor so you should find some good targets.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

This is one of those squads i'd love to run but have never been able to justify points wise. I just love how lascannons look though. Does anybody think this is worth doing with chaos havocs considering you arn't getting the signum, combat squad, or razorback option?

[the jeske]

for loyalist using drop dreads specially with vulkan is more effective[and cheaper] . for chaos termicid and oblits are better way of getting anti tank [or in the case of oblits geting lascanons and plasma canons and meltas etc] .

[ShinyRhino]

for loyalist using drop dreads specially with vulkan is more effective[and cheaper] . for chaos termicid and oblits are better way of getting anti tank [or in the case of oblits geting lascanons and plasma canons and meltas etc] .

 

You're comparing apples to oranges, AGAIN. How's about some constructive response to the topic, instead of "That sucks, use this totally unrelated thing instead!"

 

 

A quad lascannon team can be useful against most anything but massed infantry. MCs drop like flies under that kind of fire, as will light armor, and you can stun the pants off heavy armor. TEQ will take some casualties every round from firing like that. As mentioned before, squadrons of anything will be crippled by dedicated quad-lascannon fire every turn.

 

Also mentioned was the benefit of combat squadding for two squads, each with two lascannons. Deploy them both in the same general area for mutual support. They can split fire if needed, but nothing stops them from firing all four at the same target. Just watch your leadership checks from casualties.

 

You'll always find something worth firing at with a squad like this. They're just going to eat a lot of points to get to the table in numbers high enough to give some ablative wounds to the lascannons. You'll also want to beware of deploying them near a board edge against any opponent with outflanking units.

[minigun762]

This is one of those squads i'd love to run but have never been able to justify points wise. I just love how lascannons look though. Does anybody think this is worth doing with chaos havocs considering you arn't getting the signum, combat squad, or razorback option?

 

Possibly. Its not so much competition against the Dev's and their gear but our own Obliterators.

4 Obliterators will cost you exactly the same as a 10 man 4 LasCannon squad with Icon of Chaos Glory.

So you have to ask yourself if the extra ablative wounds on the Havocks are better then everything else you get with the Obliterators. Sadly, it probably isn't.

 

For Loyalists though, I think quad LasCannon is much more effective, since they don't have access to Obliterators and instead they get all those nifty little toys we mentioned.

[Koremu]

Lascannon on Devastators are too expensive by about 20 points each.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

I think Las Devs in general are pretty good. They got a points drop from last Edition. They got Combat Squads. They got improved auspices. Sure, 5th Ed rules hit them harder than most. But I think they're no worse off than in 4th Ed.

[Gornall]

My problem with Loyalist Devastators is for less than a 4 Lascannon Dev Squad, I can get a LR with TLLCx2 and a TLHB (and possibly a MM) and AV14. It's immune to small weapons fire and can't be tied up in assault, and can be made scoring for 75 points. It can even move and shoot, meaning it's not completely hosed if you have a DoW mission. Devs are good platforms for HBs and MLs, but Lascannons are just too expensive for them. Shoot, it's just as effective to buy Lascannons for SGV squads instead of Devs. Just my opinion, though.

[ShinyRhino]

My problem with Loyalist Devastators is for less than a 4 Lascannon Dev Squad, I can get a LR with TLLCx2 and a TLHB (and possibly a MM) and AV14. It's immune to small weapons fire and can't be tied up in assault, and can be made scoring for 75 points. It can even move and shoot, meaning it's not completely hosed if you have a DoW mission. Devs are good platforms for HBs and MLs, but Lascannons are just too expensive for them. Shoot, it's just as effective to buy Lascannons for SGV squads instead of Devs. Just my opinion, though.

 

How are you making a Land Raider scoring? By shoving 5 scouts inside?

That's wonderful and everything, but it's still a vehicle that can be blown up with one random lascannon, meltaweapon, or Monstrous Character. The Devs can survive everything in that list but the MC.

[Moonsword]

And, for that matter, with four lascannons, can bring a lot of them down in one round with some luck.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

How about the issue that it is cheaper to take 5 sternguard with 2 lascannons than 5 devs with 2 lascannons?

[Gornall]

How are you making a Land Raider scoring? By shoving 5 scouts inside?

That's wonderful and everything, but it's still a vehicle that can be blown up with one random lascannon, meltaweapon, or Monstrous Character. The Devs can survive everything in that list but the MC.

 

And Devs can fail a random leadership check and run off the board, get Lashed and splatted, be shot to hell by deep-strikers or outflankers, or get tied up in assault indefinately. Stuff happens, and each option has it's strengths/weaknesses. I'm just saying that 4-Lascannon Dev squads are too expensive for my tastes as I can get cheaper lascannons on other platforms. YMMV though.

[ShinyRhino]

How about the issue that it is cheaper to take 5 sternguard with 2 lascannons than 5 devs with 2 lascannons?

 

I wouldn't really call that an "issue" though.

The two units take up different FOC slots.

The Devs gain the use of the sergeant's Signum.

They're just differently priced units with similar loadout options, but different capabilities.

[Koremu]

How about the issue that it is cheaper to take 5 sternguard with 2 lascannons than 5 devs with 2 lascannons?

 

I wouldn't really call that an "issue" though.

The two units take up different FOC slots.

The Devs gain the use of the sergeant's Signum.

They're just differently priced units with similar loadout options, but different capabilities.

Sorry, but no. The Devastator Squad is outright worse than the Sternguard Squad with an identical load out. The Sternguard have higher base Ld, more attacks, special ammo, and can be made scoring. The Devastators can make one weapon BS5 (which traditionally always misses anyway) and do so while taking up a Heavy Support Slot, which is supposed to be where the HEAVY Firepower is available from.

 

Devastators should have the same Heavy Weapons cost as Sternguard, and then they would be worthwhile.

 

Either that or make them scoring.

 

Devastators, as it stands, are the worst Heavy Support option for getting Heavy Weapons on the table. Any of the other Heavy Support choices, plus half of the Elites choices and several Fast Attack choices all provide equal of better Firepower for the points cost, often with superior mobility, survivability or flexibility.

 

About the only reason to take them is in Planetstrike Defensive forces. Fortifications and Bolstered Defences.

[ShinyRhino]

Sorry, but no. The Devastator Squad is outright worse than the Sternguard Squad with an identical load out. The Sternguard have higher base Ld, more attacks, special ammo, and can be made scoring. The Devastators can make one weapon BS5 (which traditionally always misses anyway) and do so while taking up a Heavy Support Slot, which is supposed to be where the HEAVY Firepower is available from.

 

 

No to what?

I made no judgements about the units in question. I simply stated that they were different. You can't argue THAT. If I want to pack my Elites slots full of Terminators or Dreads, Devvies are the only footborne option I have for four plasma cannons, lascannons, missile launchers, heavy bolters, and multimeltas.

A Land Raider can get two lascannons, a heavy bolter, and a multimelta, but not four of any one type. Attack Bikes can get three heavy bolters or multimeltas. A squadron of Landspeeders can actually get better numbers of heavy weapons, with two of several types each, or Typhoon launchers (which are essentially two missile launcher apiece). They take an FA slot though.

No judgements from me regarding which is better than the other, as I feel it's hard to compare vehicular and footborne firepower, especially across FOC slots, as the different units all have pros and cons that make up for each others' failings.

The true answer always lies in "What else is in your army?" :D

[Koremu]

No to what?

I disagree with your analysis. I do not believe that Devastators are worth taking except under Planetstrike Defense conditions.

 

Regardless of what else is in your army, there is always a better option than Devastators in regular 40k.

 

They are bottom of the dogpile and will remain so until their Heavy Weapons costs are fixed to be in line with Sternguard ones.

[Gornall]

...until their Heavy Weapons costs are fixed to be in line with Sternguard ones.

 

This. The only reasonably costed weapons Devs can get IMO are HB/ML/MMs. A 10 man squad with four of those is 230 points, which is pretty solid. Plasma Cannons are slightly overcosted at 270 points, but 310 points for 4 Lascannons is just too much (Increasing the cost by almost a third!). With the points you save by not buying Lascannons, you can buy a TLLC Razorback for the Devs. If you want Lascannons, there are just too many other great platforms. About the only reason I can think of using LCx4 Devastator squads is when you have too many points and not enough FOC spots. You can get the same amount of firepower cheaper from other options, but it would take an extra FOC spot or two (e.g. 310 points buys me a Tri-Las Pred and an Autocannon/Lascannon Pred with 25 points left over). I will give you that they do have a place in Planetstrike as their inherent vulnerabilities can be mitigated by placing them in Bastions (until someone uses the Teleport Barrage). But for a regular game where points are hard to come by, I just think there are more (cost) effective options.

[Giga]

I don't like devastator squads. They have two big disadvantages that I think make them a bad choice;

 

- insane price. The lascannons cost 35 pts a piece. That's 140 pts just to get those weapons, and then if you get, let's say, 3 additional dudes to soak up wounds, your 8 men dev squad with 4 lascannons ends up at a whooping 278 pts. For 278 pts you can get two combipreds and still have points to go around... or a land raider with multimelta and extra armor... or two 5 men sternguard squads with 2 lascannons each... or dish another 25 pts and get two full attack bike squads with multimeltas to fulfill all your anti-vehicle needs, etc.

 

- devastator squads are both infantry and heavy support, which means in Dawn of War missions they will waste AT LEAST one turn of shooting, AND they will take ages to get into a good position to shoot most of the time without a transport. This is huge.

 

 

 

 

 

IMHO, the dev squads should've had an innate special rule that made them scoring. Not troops, just scoring. Then their ridiculous price would be more then worth it.