Returning from the Warp

[Everblight]

Hi all, I've been thinking of returning to Space Marines after a long hiatus (September '01), though i have been playing 40k throughout these past years I have been playing exclusively Tau since their release right up about a year before 5th Edition came out, although I did not win all my games, I won enough to start getting bored with them, bored enough to just stop playing and not care that 5th Edition came out (Personally, I didn't have any issues with 4th).

 

So, I have this new Codex and have read the 5th Edition rulebook to be aware of a few of the changes, I'll actually get my book later today or tomorrow, depending on when i go to bed/ get up.

 

So looking through the marine Codex there are a few things that I like, and a couple that have thrown me for a real loop.

 

Okay the Chapter I am looking at "doing" is Crimson Fists, I've always thought of them as one of the "decent" chapters unlike the Blood Angels or Space Wolfs (Not saying they are Crap or Bad, I just don't like them), and after the Rynn's World event they kind of found a soft spot in my heart, however I believe they have become the current "In" Chapter, and I'm not really one for the "Band Wagon" so I hope that this isn't true. So Pedro Kantor is going to be in there, I also like Darnath Lysander and Cato Sicarius, Lysander because the model is nice and Cato for what he brings to the Army (LD10 combined with Kantor's Stubborn, among other things), if the game gets big enough (3K+) then there is no conflict of abilities between the three either.

 

However, while one part of my foundation was easy the other is not, the Troop choices, I am finding it really tough, back when I last played Space Marines and in all those army lists that I wrote up for the enjoyment of it (Everyone does this, right?) I was always fielding 6 Man Tactical Squads with Plasma/ Heavy Bolter and Sergeant with Power Weapon (Pre hidden-fist days) and Power Fist later on, mounted in a TwLascannon Razorback. This I can't do, as I to take any weapon upgrades I need a full squad (I know why they did this). I'm looking at the Scouts and not seeing how they can be effective, being Troops i need to take at least 2 squads, back when, I took two Tactical (With a Third in the case) and a Sniper team with Autocannon (Guess thats going to have to be Missile Launcher now) and a Second in the case. Additionally with the Objective rules you need Troops choices for scoring (Though Kantor mitigates that somewhat). Now after reading a few articles on here (Mostly by Warp Angel, nice ideas BTW), I read that you can indeed take a Razorback with a 10 man unit, which is good as I like me my Razorbacks, but that means four marines can't be transported during the game (Reserves and Flanking is good right?) and using Combat Squads just tend to end up being too fragile, one of the reasons I went with six to a squad back in the day (Outnumbers a 5 man, and 2 squads could do a 10 man).

 

So some help on the Troops choices would be grateful (Sniper Scouts with Cloaks in a Bolstered Ruin??).

 

I'm thinking with the other units a six man three weapon Devastator Squad in Razorback, an Autocannon/ Lascannon Predator with whatshisface driving, I fancy getting two Landraiders, not sure what ones though. Thunderfire looks interesting as well.

 

I've never really been one for Fast Attack in marines, use to use a pair of Attack Bikes with Heavy Bolters though (My Multi-Meltas always missed, so I will not use them).

 

As for Elites, well, with Pedro Kantor on the field a Sternguard unit is a must, I'm liking the idea of doing bolter/ combi-bolter drive bys, but to be enough of them to do damage it would require a large unit and a Rhino (I like Razorbacks), should I have more than one unit? I'm not interested in using them as a pocket Devastator Team as they don't hit any better at that role, they die just as easy and they cost more for the effort.

 

Dreadnoughts I'm liking the idea of a Venerable with 2 Twin Autocannons and a normal one with Assault Cannon and Heavy Flamer, no Ironclad though, don't like the concept.

 

Bare in mind I know this will not all fit in a 1500 point army.

Additionally, the Meta is pretty much, everyone with Marines with some having a second army.

 

Oh, Terminators, I would like a unit, I think, Thunder Hammer/ Storm Shields. Can LOS be drawn through a model? For some reason i'm entertaining the Idea of Shield Walling them in front of something, but thats a Warmachine throwback no doubt.

 

I'm just not sure about Drop Pods I Really like the Techmarine models though.

 

Anyway, I'm rambling, comments, pointers and questions all welcome.

 

Thanks.

 

P.S. Model wise, pretty much starting from Scratch, But I do have a TwHeavy Bolter Razorback (Did I mention I like Razorbacks?). Also, is there any rule against "upsizing" a models base? I just really like the Warmachine ones...

[waaanial00]

First off 5 scout snipers will not cut it. I am sure that some will disagree but I ran this unit for several games and they killed the sum total of nothing. I have spoken to many marine players and almost all of them agree that you may as well leave a scout squad at home if they are not 8 or above. Reason benig that they just dont hit enough (being BS3).

 

If you are worried about multi meltas on attack bikes missing then you might consider arming your scouts with a heavy bolter rather than a missile launcher. One shot 50% miss is something you either learn to accept or just go for 3 shots 1 hit instead.

 

You concerns about Razorbacks and no upgrades to marines below 10 is a genuine concern. Some things can be done to get around the issue, one of my favourite alternatives is to arm Sergeants with combi weapons, though when it comes down to it you will likely run into the decision of just taking 10 man squads and either combat squadding or waiting until you take 4 casualties and then jumping in.

 

Dont discount the humble Rhino though, it not only has transport capacity over the razorback but it has firepoints where the Razorback has not.

 

Chronus is the guy you are thinking of taking in the Predator and might I suggest that you do not. The only reason I would field him in a predator would be that my Landraider is too expensive to fit in anyway or I have 3 Heavy Support choices already and therefore cannot take another Predator (which is arguably better than Chronus in one). Chronus adds much more to a landraider which is transporting something nasty (Assault Terminators or Vanguard).

 

Dev squad with razorback (never in razorback as they cant shoot out of it) is a fairly good way of adding extra firepower to an already up gunned unit. I believe having a full 10 man with a razorback is acceptable, you cant fire out of the transport anyway so you may as well take a 10 man and either combat squad (great idea with these guys as they will be attracting quite a lot of attention) or wait until you start suffering wounds. Again a Rhino would keep them safer whilst not stopping them from contributing (assuming that it is static they can fire from the fire points).

 

Sternguard are great, in a drop pod they are suicide, in a Razorback they are ok and able to do a drive by, in a Rhino they are awesome (Storm bolter + Pintle mounted storm bolter + 2 Rapid Firing Stern with special rounds OR 2 heavy flamers). Dont discount their ability to beat weaker units in combat, they do after all have the same attacks on the charge as Assault Marines :D With Pedro they fight like vanguard.

 

Dont discount using one as a heavy weapon unit so quickly, they are fairly good with 2 Plasma Cannons and kraken rounds. The 2 heavy weapon guys do have bolt pistols after all and they do a better job for less points than a similarly sized Dev Squad (BS5 doesnt help much with scatter in my experience). If you dont want a static unit though, look no further than 2 heavy flamers. Those 2 S5 templates will really help you out in a close fire drive by or pre assault.

 

Venerable Dreads dont really need TL weapons, BS4 with a reroll is essentially BS5 so a normal dread does the same damage output at range for less. I find Assault Cannon Heavy Flamer Ven dreads to be awesome, the BS5 really helps the assault cannon which I still think is a damn good weapon (S6 AP4 Heavy 4! Who cares about the nerf to rending when you are pumping out that amount of fire power). The main reason I would take ven is to improve survivability which you will need at the shorter ranges of assault cannon, the Auto Cannon is likely going to be taking the od dlascannon but wont really be needing the reroll as much as the Assault Cannon one.

 

True Line Of Sight is the name of the game, if you can see it, you can shoot it. If you shoot through a unit it will get a cover save. If your shooting is not going to penetrate their armour anyway then whats the difference?

 

Oh and as for upsizing bases, there is a specific rule which says you need the opponents permission but I have never run into anyone who said anything against it. Mostly I get hit with "thats cool!!!".

 

Wan

[Everblight]

First off 5 scout snipers will not cut it. I am sure that some will disagree but I ran this unit for several games and they killed the sum total of nothing. I have spoken to many marine players and almost all of them agree that you may as well leave a scout squad at home if they are not 8 or above. Reason benig that they just dont hit enough (being BS3).

That was the impression I got as well. So 7-8 Snipers, Missile Launcher and Sergeant (Telion??) it is then?

 

If you are worried about multi meltas on attack bikes missing then you might consider arming your scouts with a heavy bolter rather than a missile launcher. One shot 50% miss is something you either learn to accept or just go for 3 shots 1 hit instead.

Ah, you see it's not one shot weapons, it's Multi-Meltas. Missile Launchers, Lascannons, etc, all hit as often as they should.

 

You concerns about Razorbacks and no upgrades to marines below 10 is a genuine concern. Some things can be done to get around the issue, one of my favourite alternatives is to arm Sergeants with combi weapons, though when it comes down to it you will likely run into the decision of just taking 10 man squads and either combat squadding or waiting until you take 4 casualties and then jumping in.

 

Dont discount the humble Rhino though, it not only has transport capacity over the razorback but it has firepoints where the Razorback has not.

My typical way of using them was as an extra accurate heavy weapon and a mobile LOS blocker. Though in regards to the Rhino, I thinking getting one for the Sternguard, to do a kind of "Fist of Fury", is that viable?

 

Chronus is the guy you are thinking of taking in the Predator and might I suggest that you do not. The only reason I would field him in a predator would be that my Landraider is too expensive to fit in anyway or I have 3 Heavy Support choices already and therefore cannot take another Predator (which is arguably better than Chronus in one). Chronus adds much more to a landraider which is transporting something nasty (Assault Terminators or Vanguard).

Really? Being that the Tank in question would cost a Minimum of 150, I thought he would be a good upgrade for it.

 

Dev squad with razorback (never in razorback as they cant shoot out of it) is a fairly good way of adding extra firepower to an already up gunned unit. I believe having a full 10 man with a razorback is acceptable, you cant fire out of the transport anyway so you may as well take a 10 man and either combat squad (great idea with these guys as they will be attracting quite a lot of attention) or wait until you start suffering wounds. Again a Rhino would keep them safer whilst not stopping them from contributing (assuming that it is static they can fire from the fire points).

I was just thinking six marines with three weapons, with an "opposite" weapon on the Razorback, nothing too fancy really, but you think some more basic bodies in the unit?

 

Sternguard are great, in a drop pod they are suicide, in a Razorback they are ok and able to do a drive by, in a Rhino they are awesome (Storm bolter + Pintle mounted storm bolter + 2 Rapid Firing Stern with special rounds OR 2 heavy flamers). Dont discount their ability to beat weaker units in combat, they do after all have the same attacks on the charge as Assault Marines :) With Pedro they fight like vanguard.

 

Dont discount using one as a heavy weapon unit so quickly, they are fairly good with 2 Plasma Cannons and kraken rounds. The 2 heavy weapon guys do have bolt pistols after all and they do a better job for less points than a similarly sized Dev Squad (BS5 doesnt help much with scatter in my experience). If you dont want a static unit though, look no further than 2 heavy flamers. Those 2 S5 templates will really help you out in a close fire drive by or pre assault.

This is making no sense to me, Sternguard are BS 4. Also I've seen a lot people mention the Heavy Flamers and while I don't doubt they are good, I get the impression that some of the "rave" is from the fact that they can take them, if that makes sense. Problem with piling in to a unit after a drive by is that you can't (Unless they are jumping out of a Land Raider, but thats not really a drive by) and the Rapid Fire Weapons, though they also bolt pistols, but they don't get you use the Special Ammo, if I've got that right that is.

 

Venerable Dreads dont really need TL weapons, BS4 with a reroll is essentially BS5 so a normal dread does the same damage output at range for less. I find Assault Cannon Heavy Flamer Ven dreads to be awesome, the BS5 really helps the assault cannon which I still think is a damn good weapon (S6 AP4 Heavy 4! Who cares about the nerf to rending when you are pumping out that amount of fire power). The main reason I would take ven is to improve survivability which you will need at the shorter ranges of assault cannon, the Auto Cannon is likely going to be taking the od dlascannon but wont really be needing the reroll as much as the Assault Cannon one.

Being that it is a good Transport killer I would be expecting it to take alot of incoming, hence the Venerable, though I see the point with the other dreadnought being Venerable.

 

True Line Of Sight is the name of the game, if you can see it, you can shoot it. If you shoot through a unit it will get a cover save. If your shooting is not going to penetrate their armour anyway then whats the difference?

So if i was to line up my Stormshield Terminators in Base to base, no one can see anything from either side of them?

[waaanial00]

was the impression I got as well. So 7-8 Snipers, Missile Launcher and Sergeant (Telion??) it is then?

 

This is a sensible approach and will likely do well. The added cost is outweighed by the added firepower and accuracy that Telion gives you. The ability to specifically place wounds is a boon as well. I personally dont think camo cloaks are worth it for such a long ranged unit but thats just me, it makes them more expensive than Tacticals (given that tacticals get free heavy weapons)

 

Really? Being that the Tank in question would cost a Minimum of 150, I thought he would be a good upgrade for it.

 

Ok so here are your options for Predators -

 

Dakka (auto cannon + heavy bolters) - 85 points

Annihilator (TL Lascannon + Lascannon Sponsons) - 175 points

Combi (auto cannon + Lascannon Sponsons) - 120 points

Anti combi (TL Lascannon + Heavy Bolters) - 130 points

 

Of these I might have considered adding Chronus to the Annihilator but then that costs as much as a Landraider (give or take) which is much better IMO. The Combi is cheap enough to start to justify but when you start to calculate how much it will be you may as well just get another Dakka or spend a Landspeeders amount and get another Combi.

 

I would only pay for the upgrade where I had already loaded up my heavy support choices and didnt have the models to get better ones. I just dont see him being value for points, though my tanks rarely get anything but destroyed :D

 

I was just thinking six marines with three weapons, with an "opposite" weapon on the Razorback, nothing too fancy really, but you think some more basic bodies in the unit?

 

The issue with Dev squads is that the smaller the unit the more susceptible to wound allocation mishaps you get. With 6 guys and 3 heavy weapons you only have 2 unimportant bodys before they start to get at the soft chewy centre of your squad (heavy weapons and Sergeant). With 10 in the squad you can have 4 heavy weapons and still have 5 body bags before they start to get the heavy boys.

 

Its all horses for courses and acceptability of risk really. A smaller squad is worth less points overall but each death is more liable to take out what makes this squad worth buying. Many will even suggest that you ignore them completely and just get tanks however I think there is space in the marine arsenal for man portable heavy weapons.

 

 

This is making no sense to me, Sternguard are BS 4.

 

I assume that you are referring to my reference of BS5, this was a direct comparison to the effectiveness of the Devastator Squad who have a Signum which allows a model in that unit to fire at BS5. The Sternguard do not have this and therefore in a similarly armed (2 Plasma Cannons + 3 Bolter gents) squad the Devastator squad will have one gun that fires more accurately than the sternguard, however as I said earlier I dont find the extra inch reduction in scatter to matter much.

 

Also I've seen a lot people mention the Heavy Flamers and while I don't doubt they are good, I get the impression that some of the "rave" is from the fact that they can take them, if that makes sense. Problem with piling in to a unit after a drive by is that you can't (Unless they are jumping out of a Land Raider, but thats not really a drive by) and the Rapid Fire Weapons, though they also bolt pistols, but they don't get you use the Special Ammo, if I've got that right that is.

 

Sadly there is a lot of hype around stuff on the internet (Assault Terminators for instance are not as good as forum people sugggest - mine regularly fail to impress me). However in this case I am firmly behind heavy flamers being a useful option for several reasons

 

• They are assault weapons and therefore the only S4+ template weapon the sternguard can shoot on the move
  
• A S5 template weapon for the same cost as 2 Flamer Combi weapons, I think, is well worth it
  
• Whilst rapid firing 2+ Poisioned shots are good against hoard armies I have had too many games where I drop podded next to a unit of Ork boys and failed to make much of an impact. With a S5 template weapons I can see a lot of dead T4 SV4+ units.
  

 

Being that it is a good Transport killer I would be expecting it to take alot of incoming, hence the Venerable, though I see the point with the other dreadnought being Venerable.

 

I suppose it all depends on whether you figure you have enough armour on the board to keep the Dreadnought alive, if you believe spending half again on a dreadnought for the possibility of a better damage result. My biggest problem with Venerable is that it puts pressure on the owner to decide whether they feel it warrents the reroll, with a cool head and an ability to take certain damage it works quite well however if you dont keep the big picture you can end up killing the dread by not accepting a lesser result. I am not suggesting this is what will happen but after 3 games of running 4 Ven dreads I can tell you with certainty that the decision gets harder as the game progresses.

 

So if i was to line up my Stormshield Terminators in Base to base, no one can see anything from either side of them?

 

If your Storm Shield Terminators are aligned so that you cannot see a torso or head of the enemy then you cannot fire at them. If the enemy cannot see the torso or head of the unit behind then they cannot fire at them.

 

However just lining up the Terminators in front of say scouts does not guarentee that they are immune from being shot at. It is True Line of Sight so if your models were real and had working eyes then whatever they could see is what you can fire at. I know that its not very enforcable in this highly RAW explanation but you have to be a little sensible about it. If you think your model can see an enemy and your opponent is adamant that you cant either dice off, get a laser pen or ask a third party.

 

Hope this helps

 

Wan

[Everblight]

Sorry was hoping to get back to this sooner but things distracted me.

 

This is a sensible approach and will likely do well. The added cost is outweighed by the added firepower and accuracy that Telion gives you. The ability to specifically place wounds is a boon as well. I personally dont think camo cloaks are worth it for such a long ranged unit but thats just me, it makes them more expensive than Tacticals (given that tacticals get free heavy weapons)

I was looking at Camo Cloaks to give the Snipers a 2+ or 3+ cover save when combined with "Bolster Defences" which i'm reasonably sure i'll have access to (Techmarine of Various types or Lysander)

 

 

Ok so here are your options for Predators -

 

Dakka (auto cannon + heavy bolters) - 85 points

Annihilator (TL Lascannon + Lascannon Sponsons) - 175 points

Combi (auto cannon + Lascannon Sponsons) - 120 points

Anti combi (TL Lascannon + Heavy Bolters) - 130 points

 

Of these I might have considered adding Chronus to the Annihilator but then that costs as much as a Landraider (give or take) which is much better IMO. The Combi is cheap enough to start to justify but when you start to calculate how much it will be you may as well just get another Dakka or spend a Landspeeders amount and get another Combi.

 

I would only pay for the upgrade where I had already loaded up my heavy support choices and didnt have the models to get better ones. I just dont see him being value for points, though my tanks rarely get anything but destroyed :)

Hmm i'm seeing your point, that 70 points can get you so much, drop a Speeder and you get an extra Combi for example.

 

 

The issue with Dev squads is that the smaller the unit the more susceptible to wound allocation mishaps you get. With 6 guys and 3 heavy weapons you only have 2 unimportant bodys before they start to get at the soft chewy centre of your squad (heavy weapons and Sergeant). With 10 in the squad you can have 4 heavy weapons and still have 5 body bags before they start to get the heavy boys.

 

Its all horses for courses and acceptability of risk really. A smaller squad is worth less points overall but each death is more liable to take out what makes this squad worth buying. Many will even suggest that you ignore them completely and just get tanks however I think there is space in the marine arsenal for man portable heavy weapons.

Been thinking about this a bit more, for some weapons i feel that you have a point. Take Heavy Bolters for example, the whole point of them is to put fire downrange, thus in their case it makes sense to have four of them, which in turn leads to needing more red shirts. However, with say the likes of Lascannons (Multi-Meltas as well), four tends to be overkill, you should be using them for anti-tank work first, and in my past experience, 1 will miss, 2 will hit without effect, your only needing the third to have good odds at getting the kill. Give one of them BS5 and you would be typically sorted. In the past i have never equipped the Sergeant with anything extra and just considered him another red shirt. He's less so now but still not more valuable then the heavy weapon marines, i'll won't have to think about it if it came to assigning wounds to him over a Heavy Weapon.

 

 

Sadly there is a lot of hype around stuff on the internet (Assault Terminators for instance are not as good as forum people suggest - mine regularly fail to impress me). However in this case I am firmly behind heavy flamers being a useful option for several reasons

 

• They are assault weapons and therefore the only S4+ template weapon the sternguard can shoot on the move
  
• A S5 template weapon for the same cost as 2 Flamer Combi weapons, I think, is well worth it
  
• Whilst rapid firing 2+ Poisioned shots are good against hoard armies I have had too many games where I drop podded next to a unit of Ork boys and failed to make much of an impact. With a S5 template weapons I can see a lot of dead T4 SV4+ units.
  

After seeing a game this week, i understand the point about the Heavy Flamers. Striking first in combat no longer helps to protect you from a large unit charging you.

 

 

 

I suppose it all depends on whether you figure you have enough armour on the board to keep the Dreadnought alive, if you believe spending half again on a dreadnought for the possibility of a better damage result. My biggest problem with Venerable is that it puts pressure on the owner to decide whether they feel it warrents the reroll, with a cool head and an ability to take certain damage it works quite well however if you dont keep the big picture you can end up killing the dread by not accepting a lesser result. I am not suggesting this is what will happen but after 3 games of running 4 Ven dreads I can tell you with certainty that the decision gets harder as the game progresses.

Interesting point, i think though that one i'll have to play out myself.

 

Hope this helps

 

Wan

You've been very helpful, thank you.

 

Got some more questions though.

I think i've seen a interesting option, for assault marines.

They can have a Speacial (Flamer) with only five marines, if you drop the Jump Packs you can get a Rhino for free, this works out 15 points cheaper then a five man Tactical with Rhino, in fact it says cheaper all the way up to 9 Marines, and is only 5 points more than the Tacticals when at full size, assuming they took only the free weapon options. Granted they only have Bolt pistols, so they are lacking at short ranged firepower, but two Flamers from the Rhino, leading to Assaults.....

 

I've been looking at Cato and Kantor, i'm i right that together the give your entire army Stubborn at Ld 10 ?!?(As long as Cato is alive). Granted at 375 points, it is only for the larger games, but still.

[Vedrial]

Got some more questions though.

I think i've seen a interesting option, for assault marines.

 

Assault Marines can be a very very effective unit, or they can do precisely nothing except get killed. In just about any situation, you really really, pretty much must take 10 Marines. Any less, and you lose your effectiveness far too quickly.

 

They can have a Speacial (Flamer) with only five marines, if you drop the Jump Packs you can get a Rhino for free, this works out 15 points cheaper then a five man Tactical with Rhino, in fact it says cheaper all the way up to 9 Marines, and is only 5 points more than the Tacticals, assuming they took only the free weapon options. Granted they only have Bolt pistols, so they are lacking at short ranged firepower, but two Flamers from the Rhino, leading to Assaults.....

 

The ability to move 12" and lay down 2 flamer templates can be awesome. Don't count out the plasma though.

 

Too many Flamer wounds will often result in the enemy removing models to leave your Marines out of charge range. You don't want this to happen. Better to be more or less assured of a few wounds and still be able to charge. I'm running 1 Flamer, 1 Plasma Pistol, and a Plasma Pistol and a Power Fist on the Sarge. This unit can hunt down MEQ or TEQ and get 3-4 wounds before charging, then assault with 27 regular attacks and 3 Power Fist blows. Alternatively, they can deny cover save to a sqaud that's hidding, then charge them and to some serious damage in CC. Having both Frag and Krak Grenades often gets taken for granted, but they really shine with these guys.

 

A Chaplin w/ jump pack turns Assault Marines from a good unit into a GREAT unit. Fearless, plus being able to reroll misses in close combat... wow! Plus, the chappy has a Power Weapon/BP, and a 4++ invul. save!

 

Lastly, if you're going to use Assault Marines, never run them as your Spearhead! You want them to have something hard out in front of them or a nice distraction unit so that they can support your units right up in the enemy lines.

 

I'd recomend against taking the free dedicated transport option. As tempting as it is, you want these guys to have the mobility to pull off an 18" charge, plus being able to add their special weapons to the mix.

 

I've been looking at Cato and Kantor, i'm i right that together the give your entire army Stubborn at Ld 10 ?!?(As long as Cato is alive). Granted at 375 points, it is only for the larger games, but still.

 

Yup. Stubburn Ld 10 is very scary.

 

However, it's also a bit overkill. ATSKNF means that the penalty for failing a moral check is greatly mitigated, with your units able to get right back into the fight on your turn, most of the time. I have never once had a unit fall back off the edge of the board.

 

In much larger games though... why not!

[Everblight]

The ability to move 12" and lay down 2 flamer templates can be awesome. Don't count out the plasma though.

 

Too many Flamer wounds will often result in the enemy removing models to leave your Marines out of charge range. You don't want this to happen.

I'll bare this in mind. I noticed this is the game i watched, it was something that rubbed both myself and the person playing the marines quite badly (Versus an Ork player). If i'm honest, this rule could be the one that turns this from me starting a new army to play, to something for me to build and paint, it rubbed me that badly.

 

A Chaplin w/ jump pack turns Assault Marines from a good unit into a GREAT unit. Fearless, plus being able to reroll misses in close combat... wow! Plus, the chappy has a Power Weapon/BP, and a 4++ invul. save!

While i'm not going to write a Chaplin out of the list, he is quite far down the choice list.

 

I'd recomend against taking the free dedicated transport option. As tempting as it is, you want these guys to have the mobility to pull off an 18" charge, plus being able to add their special weapons to the mix.

It was more of an idea so that i didn't have another Tactical squad, another meaning more than 3.

 

I've been looking at Cato and Kantor, i'm i right that together the give your entire army Stubborn at Ld 10 ?!?(As long as Cato is alive). Granted at 375 points, it is only for the larger games, but still.

 

Yup. Stubburn Ld 10 is very scary.

 

However, it's also a bit overkill. ATSKNF means that the penalty for failing a moral check is greatly mitigated, with your units able to get right back into the fight on your turn, most of the time. I have never once had a unit fall back off the edge of the board.

 

In much larger games though... why not!

Was thinking around the 2500-3000 mark if i'm honest.

 

Anyway, i've put up a list here, if you could take a look, that would be great.

[DemetriiTZ]

Removing models to deny a charge is perfectly legal. Why would that rub you badly? It's a sound tactic. The guy with the flamers got too eager, and made an overcommitment of firepower that his foe used to leave the squad hanging.

 

Live and learn.

[Everblight]

Because wounds can be taken anywhere from the unit (more or less) and not the ones i flamed.

[DemetriiTZ]

Them's the rules.

[gdeathlegion]

beautiful thing about flamers, is that you can control how many wounds you put on a squad...

you could show a little self control?

[Hellios]

beautiful thing about flamers, is that you can control how many wounds you put on a squad...

you could show a little self control?

 

Would that not depend on where you are and they are :P if the way things are position you can only fire in a certain angle you could be forced to hit multiple bogies or nothing :( but you do have a choice :D