Spore Mines and Killpoints

[ShinyRhino]

Hi all.

Did a searchy, but didn't find the answers I wanted.

I know Tyranids have options to take Spore Mine Clusters as a separate FOC choice. They can deepstrike onto the board and all that jazz. This unit would obviously be worth a killpoint, as it's a FOC slot and an individual unit. The trick for the Nid player is getting the mines to kill enough stuff for it to be worth the giving up of the killpoint.

But what about spore mines fired/generated by a Biovore? I've never seen a Biovore in action, and wonder if the spore mines they fire are worth a killpoint. Do Biovores fire a single sporemine with a selected or random effect? When it detonates, is it worth a killpoint?

Thanks.

[Cypher 102]

By the strictest interpretation of the rules the spore mines fit the definition of a unit on pg. 3 of the rulebook and would count for a kill point. As far rules for unit I see no difference between spore mines fired from a biovore and spore mines that just drop from the sky aside from the latter taking up a force organization slot. This difference doesn't affect kill points at all.

 

Now this is the rules as written answer but it is incredibly stupid and I would never force an opponent to abide by it. And that includes the fast attack spore mines too.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

The description of a Unit as noted above is very clear in the BRB rules. As far as Kill Points are concerned, no differentiation is made between units that are part of a regular army list or those that are created over the course of a game. Other examples include Gift of Chaos producing Spawn units, Kugath the Plague Father producing Nurgling bases, Tomb Spiders producing Scarab Swarms, etc. All such units produced are still units and give up a KP when removed as casualties.

 

In one of the first round ‘Ard Boyz scenarios it specifically mentioned that units generated during a game do not count for kill points. Just a slight nod to the effect that GW is very conscious of this ruling. So unless a specific mission states otherwise, a Unit is a Unit is a Kill Point.

 

-OMG

[Grey Mage]

My local group has houseruled that a sporemine is incapable of contesting an objective and doesnt count as a KP- it seems to work well enough for us. I might reccommend it for your casual play, or an LGS houserule.

[Cypher 102]

Zoanthropes, Rippers, and Lictors have the same rule but still count as kill points.

[Grey Mage]

Huh? Im not seeing anything in the Zoanthrope descriptions to say they dont contest....

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Zoanthropes, Rippers, and Lictors have the same rule but still count as kill points.

Note that Grey Mage is merely providing a house rule that makes more sense than counting every unit as a Kill Point in all cases. But note, he clearly states that this is a house rule. Spore Mines can contest objectives like any other unit in the game. IIRC, their special rules (including official FAQ) do not state that they cannot contest objectives. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

-OMG

[spafe]

Sorry to slightly thread jack but one of the above comments was on crons spider generating scarabs, how are they worth a kp if they spawn and are joined to the spiders unit?, surely that just means it is harder to get the kp for the spider, but doesn't actually make the scarab worth one in it's own right? Or have a missed something, as a friend of mine plays crons a lot and I think this will come as a nasty shock to him

 

Cheers

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Units that are joined to other units are still units in their own right even when they don’t have a choice when it comes to being grouped together. The same is true for any IC that can take a retinue. Even though the retinue cannot function on the table away from the parent character, the IC is a unit and the retinue is a unit = 2 KP’s.

 

The language in the codex makes this murky as it states, “Each swarm produced will form a unit with the Tomb Spyder that created it,” pg. 20. And is further mired by the 5th Edition FAQ that still references Victory Points & not Kill Points.

 

So by my take, the Spyder & Scarab is most analogous to the IC + retinue which, as stated above, = 2 KP’s. If someone else has another view on this I’d be open to hearing it (admittedly, I’m no kinda Necron player).

 

-OMG

[ShinyRhino]

Units that are joined to other units are still units in their own right even when they don’t have a choice when it comes to being grouped together. The same is true for any IC that can take a retinue. Even though the retinue cannot function on the table away from the parent character, the IC is a unit and the retinue is a unit = 2 KP’s.

 

The language in the codex makes this murky as it states, “Each swarm produced will form a unit with the Tomb Spyder that created it,” pg. 20. And is further mired by the 5th Edition FAQ that still references Victory Points & not Kill Points.

 

So by my take, the Spyder & Scarab is most analogous to the IC + retinue which, as stated above, = 2 KP’s. If someone else has another view on this I’d be open to hearing it (admittedly, I’m no kinda Necron player).

 

-OMG

 

Interesting. Now, can Tomb Spyders create more than one Swarm? if so, does EACH additional swarm generate ANOTHER killpoint?

Personally, I find Kill Points to be one of the WORST victory conditions ever invented. The 'Ard Boyz rules made it bearable under special circumstances, but jeez-oh-man is the 1KP per unit idea broken.

[Legatus]

So by my take, the Spyder & Scarab is most analogous to the IC + retinue which, as stated above, = 2 KP’s. If someone else has another view on this I’d be open to hearing it (admittedly, I’m no kinda Necron player).

I would like to disagree with that. Tomb Spyders are not Independent Characters, and their produced Scarab swarms are not independently selected from the army list (or mandatory), as it is the case with Retinues. I would rather compare Tomb Spyders to other single model units like Attack Bikes or Tau Crisis Battle Suits. They can be bought as units of one single model, but they could also consist of multiple models, but would still only grant the 1 kill point for being a single unit. The speciality of the Tomb Spyder + Scarab Swarms is that the Swarms may be added to the single unit during the course of the game, instead of being selected during army creation, but otherwise it is still a single unit, usually consisting of a single model, but potentially consisting of multiple models.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Since the codex uses the phrase, “each swarm produced will form a unit,” it seems like this should be treated like a single retinue that can grow through the course of the game. As in, if the Spyder is removed as a casualty any remaining Scarab bases would form a single unit that would function like any unit of scarab swarms thereafter.

 

If the Necron player claimed that each base could move off and act independently after the Spyder was killed then I would argue that they are worth a KP each. Both the Codex & official FAQ are silent on this point so it sounds like they become one unit and should therefore stick together.

 

Again, this is just by my read. So take it for what it’s worth. -OMG

 

 

+++Edit

 

I would like to disagree with that. Tomb Spyders are not Independent Characters, and their produced Scarab swarms are not independently selected from the army list (or mandatory), as it is the case with Retinues. I would rather compare Tomb Spyders to other single model units like Attack Bikes or Tau Crisis Battle Suits. They can be bought as units of one single model, but they could also consist of multiple models, but would still only grant the 1 kill point for being a single unit.

Perfectly valid. I can think of at least one instance where a retinue is attached to a non-IC but arguably they may only = 1 KP as well. So then the differentiator would be whether or not the created unit can act independently?

 

As in, a Spawn created by the Gift of Chaos = 1 new unit (each) that would be worth a KP (each) if killed by the opponent. The same being true for Kugath and creating Nurgling bases.

 

Right? -OMG

[Legatus]

Units that move around independently are allways worth their own kill point.

 

As far as IC's with added models or other individual model-units with added models go: The important part is not that there are models added to an otherwise single model, the important part is that one model is an Independent Character. Independent Characters are important personalities, and are allways worth their own kill point, whether they operate independently or whether they have a retinue with them and act as an indistinguishable part of a whole unit. If the IC acts alone and you kill it, you get wour one point, the whole "unit" is gone, and you are done. If the IC comes with a bigger unit, you still get 1 point immediately when you kill the IC. But now there still is the retinue unit the IC came with, which can also be killed.

 

The same is not true for single model units. If you take a unit of 3 Attack Bikes or 3 Crisis Suites, you would not automatically get a kill point for killing off one of the models. They often operate as single models, but when they are bought as bigger units that does not make a difference. A unit of 1 Attack Bike or a unit of 3 Attack Bikes would in both cases grant 1 kill point for completely destroying the unit.

 

The issue is not that a model might be bought and operate alone while in some cases coming with additional models, it is all about whether that single model is an "Independent Character".

[Reglor]

Zoanthropes, Rippers, and Lictors have the same rule but still count as kill points.

Note that Grey Mage is merely providing a house rule that makes more sense than counting every unit as a Kill Point in all cases. But note, he clearly states that this is a house rule. Spore Mines can contest objectives like any other unit in the game. IIRC, their special rules (including official FAQ) do not state that they cannot contest objectives. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

-OMG

 

Spore mines have the mindless rule. It is on page 29 of the 'nid codex. "...they cannot capture table quarters, hold objectives or count as scoring units."

[Grey Mage]

Units that are joined to other units are still units in their own right even when they don’t have a choice when it comes to being grouped together. The same is true for any IC that can take a retinue. Even though the retinue cannot function on the table away from the parent character, the IC is a unit and the retinue is a unit = 2 KP’s.

 

The language in the codex makes this murky as it states, “Each swarm produced will form a unit with the Tomb Spyder that created it,” pg. 20. And is further mired by the 5th Edition FAQ that still references Victory Points & not Kill Points.

 

So by my take, the Spyder & Scarab is most analogous to the IC + retinue which, as stated above, = 2 KP’s. If someone else has another view on this I’d be open to hearing it (admittedly, I’m no kinda Necron player).

 

-OMG

Id say that a tomb spyders scarab swarms are simply added to the existing unit- kind of like raising undead to "heal" a unit in WFB or using the WBB special rule for necron warriors- wich can allow warriors to switch from one unit to another, forming a unit with them.

 

I can see where you might think its a seperate unit, but since they have no spot on the FOC, wether by choice or design, and they never have the option of leaving the unit *IE if the spyder dies you dont have six units of scarabs running around* then its all just one KP.

 

But thats just my interpretation.

 

Zoanthropes, Rippers, and Lictors have the same rule but still count as kill points.

Note that Grey Mage is merely providing a house rule that makes more sense than counting every unit as a Kill Point in all cases. But note, he clearly states that this is a house rule. Spore Mines can contest objectives like any other unit in the game. IIRC, their special rules (including official FAQ) do not state that they cannot contest objectives. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

-OMG

 

Spore mines have the mindless rule. It is on page 29 of the 'nid codex. "...they cannot capture table quarters, hold objectives or count as scoring units."

 

Yes... and as a non troops choice they couldnt hold objectives either- but that doesnt mean they cannot contest objectives or table quarters.

 

After all an empty rhino cannot hold an objective or claim a table quarter... but it most certainly can contest it. The house rule that my group uses extends the mindless rule to include contestation, in return they do not give up a KP. To date none of the three Tyranid players who have played with us on and off have thought this unfair, and one of them had apparently already set up such a rule with his normal gaming group and was happy to hear that we had come to a similar conclusion.

[Cypher 102]

The thing I was pointing out was that the rule that keeps the spore mines from holding objectives has the exact same wording as the rules from the zoanthropes, rippers, lictors.

 

While as I said in my earlier post in this topic I strongly disagree with spore mines ever being counted as kill points, using this rule as justification for this doesn't seem right to me as it would mean that zoanthropes, rippers, and lictors wouldn't be worth kill points either. To be honest though at this point we're just arguing semantics now as the we've already come across the "official" answer to this question.