minigun762 Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Unlike Chaos, Loyalists don't have easy access to awesome assault Troops. Tacticals aren't bad, but I'd say they're normally more shooty. Sternguard have 2 attacks but also alot of dakka and they're kinda of expensive. And Assault Marines aren't bad but never scoring. However there is one unit that I'm surprised that more people don't take and thats the "Assault Scouts". 10 man squad with a Power Fist Sarge. I figure a 1:1 mix of Shotguns and BP/CCW on a unit that has Scout, Move Through Cover and Infiltrate for 165 points. Simply run them around through cover until you can assault something. As for what to assault, I'd actually think that anti-MEQ units would be my first target (things like Genestealers or Banshees) because your weaker armor save and lower WS mean less against them before they'd hit normal Marines on 3's or deny their army save anyway and the bulk of your killing is still going to come from the Power Fist Sarge, just like a Tactical squad and he's WS4. And against other things, your extra attacks will help you down things faster. And all this for a squad thats cheaper then a bare bones Tactical squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 ive made this point myself on many occasions. My own take was as an uber unit in a land raider, throw in a chappy or khan (or both) and you have a powerful assault unit that pumps out over 30 attacks for less than a tac squad.. My own scout assault squad is pretty handy, got me out of some scrapes! Gc08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Scouts are simply often overlooked.... *spreads hands* Like the power of landspeeders. In assault their only liability compared to a full marine squad is that they have WS 3 and a 4+ save... Ie they are less resilient- they still hit just as hard, potentially harder if you compare them to a tactical squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedwin183 Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 I agree completely. I'd say they're almost worth it even barebones, 1:1 shotgun-to-ccw/bp combo. I ALWAYS outflank with mine. Last game I played with them, they took out 7 total tac marines after they charged 10 tac marines and then ANOTHER 10 counter charged. They lasted in combat for 4 rounds of combat before they died. They took 7 marines though, almost worth their points back, not counting how long they kept TWO tac squads tied up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Why the shotguns? They are nice when charging, but they mean less combat resolution and make you weaker in consecutive CC rounds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angry man Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 shotguns are great because wounds that are taken from them (in the same turn that the scouts charge) areeffectively combat wounds (although they dont affect combat res) that are resolved at I10+. anything that is killed from the shotgun cannot retaliate in any way, shape or form in the close combat phase, thus adding to the scouts survivability AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted August 2, 2009 Author Share Posted August 2, 2009 shotguns are great because wounds that are taken from them (in the same turn that the scouts charge) areeffectively combat wounds (although they dont affect combat res) that are resolved at I10+. anything that is killed from the shotgun cannot retaliate in any way, shape or form in the close combat phase, thus adding to the scouts survivability AM Yeah pretty much this. In a long fight, the +1 attack of BP/CCW will be the clear winner, but in a short fight I think the edges goes to the Shotguns for exactly the reasons Angry Man mentioned. I split it 50/50 to try and cover all the bases, plus I think Shotgun Scouts look badass. To quote another very intelligent Marine... I like to keep this handy, for close encounters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 The 50/50 mix maximises the potential for both longevity (ccw) and pre assualt kills (shotties) 10 assault scouts is 10 shots followed 31 attacks 10 shotgun scouts is 20 shots and 21 attacks So its the same numer of hits, but against equal or higher initiative opponent the shotgunner trump ccw's as they dont allow for retaliation..of course in subsequent turns they are in trouble. Whereas 5 ccw and 5 shotties is 15 shots followed by 26 attacks, and the ccw means more attacks in following turns, also shotties can be taken off as casulties first if your in a meat grinder meaning more hits back too! Gc08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Dont forget... it has AP now. Some enemies will feel that a shotgun hits like a powerweapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Dont forget... it has AP now. Some enemies will feel that a shotgun hits like a powerweapon. Erm.. a shotgun is AP- Gc08 Edit: at least according to C:SM 5th ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedwin183 Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Yes sir. That is why I do it. They can hold their own with anything MEQ, however, the shotguns are there incase you DO come up against marines, banshees, genestealers, anything that is either more survivable or nasty in cc. Also, as GC08 pointed out, I ALWAYS take the shotguns as first casualties. Makes for a nice meat shield after the charge. It's a very good squad and very, very cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Owww Minigun, there you go and quote my favourite film and make me all happy ;) I have now amassed 30 or so Metal Scouts and the vast majority are BP/CC ones. Over and above what others have said they are good for attacking WS5+ units simply because they are cheap Assault marines with less armour at this point, their WS3 fails to make any difference. Was thinking of making pure units but now you lot have convinced me to mix and match my Shotgunners and Pistols. Only bugbear is that the Storm is not a dedicated transport otherwise I would never take Tacticals at all. Wan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Only bugbear is that the Storm is not a dedicated transport otherwise I would never take Tacticals at all. Yeah it has positives and negatives.. if it were dedicated you could shoot it down and assault the poor scouts, as it stands the LSS team is a two turn roadblock. The trouble for me is i run all scouts and the two best units both vie for the FA slots... if only they were dedicated id be running a mounted scout army! GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Only bugbear is that the Storm is not a dedicated transport otherwise I would never take Tacticals at all. Yeah it has positives and negatives.. if it were dedicated you could shoot it down and assault the poor scouts, as it stands the LSS team is a two turn roadblock. The trouble for me is i run all scouts and the two best units both vie for the FA slots... if only they were dedicated id be running a mounted scout army! GC08 How do you figure? You can still assault a unit that was in a destroyed Landraider... so why would a storm be different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 How do you figure? You can still assault a unit that was in a destroyed Landraider... so why would a storm be different? Im prettu sure its dedictaed transports only, ill take a trip to the rules section later and searchy. although LR's cna be dedicated too! GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Im sure it is transports in general you know though to be honest havent looked at the rule book in a while (found it skulking under a load of paperwork the other morning). I think they could have knocked down the effectiveness of the Storm and made it a dedicated transport pretty easily, just remove the Jamming Beacon. I some how dont think they realised how popular they would be or they would have been made a dedicated transport (GW being run as a for profit company and all). Wan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angry man Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 its not just a rule for dedicated transports. if ANY transport with an enbarked unit is destroyed then that unit can subsequently be charged. it on BRB pg67, below the damage table for effects on passengers and just above the dedicated transport box AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Ah ok i stand corrected.. now if only my pee brain can process that bit of info, i may actually learn something for a change ;) Gc08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 For me, it's a matter of "delivery" of the Scout unit. I have to poach another unit's ride, or Outflank the scouts to get them into combat. Walking them across the board just isn't attractive with that 4+ armor save. Outflanking is hit or miss for me. If the opponent forgets or underestimates my Scouts, it can work. They'll deploy within that 12" danger zone of the edge on both sides, givingme targets on both sides. But if there's nothing on one side or the other, I tend to end up on the empty side. Dice luck and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 For me, it's a matter of "delivery" of the Scout unit. I have to poach another unit's ride, or Outflank the scouts to get them into combat. Walking them across the board just isn't attractive with that 4+ armor save. Outflanking is hit or miss for me. If the opponent forgets or underestimates my Scouts, it can work. They'll deploy within that 12" danger zone of the edge on both sides, givingme targets on both sides. But if there's nothing on one side or the other, I tend to end up on the empty side. Dice luck and all that. But you can hug cover very well with Move Through Cover and if you take a pair of Scouts and Outflank, you're likely to get one of them on the side you need. For me it seems like most people would ignore a few squads of cheap Scouts, much to their own peril. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 I probably suffer from this more than others, since i have an army consisiting of only scout uniuts, there is nothing more threatening to take the attention. Getting scouts from A ---> B is troubling at best. but we do get infiltarte/scout move. We set up last and can be in your face turn one but scout units then face the problems of low mobility... im currently working on some ideas about negated flanks and whatnot but im digressing. ultimately the advantage of these specials decreases over time, which makes scout units using these rules more threatening early on, if people realised this they may not treat them so lightly! its also a double edged sword, if they fail to do much in the first turn a mobile army will simply drive on by and hit the rest of your forces. A ccw scout squad, need to be at the front near cover for a second turn ambush or outflanked, which is problematic.. i still like the idea of using them in a raider though, its like a slap in the face to your opponent when he gets owned by scouts. Gc08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronk Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 I play black templar. My only troops choice is the Crusaider Squad, which I can mix in up to 10 scouts (as long as I take 10 power armored marines). When I can field 2x 20 man squads this way, I do. I take as many scouts as I can in my crusader squads, as I like to play troop heavy. I've seen them in hand-to-hand action many times and think they are useful. However, more often than not, the 3+ vs. 4+ armor saves do them in versus the power armored troops. They just don't have the staying power. For a few one-offs when I did play codex marines, I found that I'd rather hand-to-hand with terminators and assault squads, leaving the scouts for sniper rifles and heavy bolter. With a camo-cloak in cover, it's damn hard to get rid of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 A ccw scout squad, need to be at the front near cover for a second turn ambush or outflanked, which is problematic.. i still like the idea of using them in a raider though, its like a slap in the face to your opponent when he gets owned by scouts. Thats what I do now a days at 1500, since I cant get Vanguard at those points I tend to load 10 scouts into my Landraider. It really unnerves people to see a landraider poking around, they tend to laugh when scouts come out of it and then look all bemused when they are beaten "but they are scouts!" is likely to be the response. Though my absolute favourite scout win of all time was 5 CC scouts with a Power fist jumping from an outflanking storm, hitting 9 Chaos Marines killing 5 of them with no return and then sweeping them off the board ;) Wan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Though my absolute favourite scout win of all time was 5 CC scouts with a Power fist jumping from an outflanking storm, hitting 9 Chaos Marines killing 5 of them with no return and then sweeping them off the board ;) Nice!, my own scout assault squad has proved useful for me, but outflank has proven to be hit or miss. On one game they came on against a ven dread.. they didnt fair too well. Anyways my game against Ctan last time out provided much of my funny stories. He knew cc was his weakness so launched all 6 of his skimmers against my ten man unit killing all but the sergeant. Who i hid in some trees so i could assault towards a rear objective. He also killed all my scout bikes in the first turn bar my sergeant.... these units really worried him. Funny thing was the scout bike sergeant had a fist and went on to win combat (with a scout squad) against his immortals and lord who teleported out of combat, and then went on to run a ten man unit of cron warriors off the board (i love T5 against single attack models). When his lord and remaining two immortals 'beamed' down near the objective my lone ccw sergeant with fisty ran out flamed them (killing one) and charged, he single handedly fisted the lord into oblivion and ran down the fleeing immortals, to add insult to injury his lord failed the WBB and was removed... So much fun, another highlight was the LSS with MM taking down the monolith with a 1 in 72 chance hit... this is why i dont use mathammer, because you just never know. Fortune favours the slightly insane. GC08 btw anyone who thinks snipers dont cut it, should know each of my ten men units killed a tomb spyder in the first turn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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