Dealing with thunder hammer-storm shield teminators

[Rippars]

Ok, so over at the army lists I saw several replys that stressed the importance of having Grey Knight Terminators to deal with TH/SS Terminators. I'm assuming that TH/SS means thunder hammer and storm shield. I hope that part is correct? Any way, I thought I'd start a new thread instead of discussing the issue further in separate army lists.

 

What makes GTKs especially good at dealing with these buggers? I haven't really faced them (TH/SS) myself a lot so I'm curious about how they go against the inquisition. What are your experiences and tips in general, is the SS 3+ inv. save a huge problem? Any other DH or WH unit that are good for killing them?

 

- R

[number6]

The 3+ invul is the problem with TH/SS termies. The only weakness these beasts have is their terrible Init value with those THs.

 

GKTs go first and hit on 3s, forcing many saves on their worst value ... 3+.

 

TH/SS termies hit us on 4s, but only after they get torrented with a bunch of power weapon wounds before they even get to strike.

[- 7eAL -]

Basically the only way to deal with them is to stay out of close combat with them, and drown them in bullets.

The first one is nigh impossible, the second one is impossible because of the first.

 

Generally, players like to do two things with thunder hammer Terminators: use a Librarian to Gate them in front of an enemy power unit, or carry them forward safely in a Land Raider Crusader. In both cases there is not enough time to shoot them, because they get to where they want to be quickly and safely, and once they get there they launch into close combat and are then protected from shooting.

 

The reason we don't have anything good for killing them is because we don't have enough models that can shoot fast enough to put down enough wounds to get past their saves.

AP2 weapons are useful, but they still get an Invulnerable save. Our weapons cancel Invulnerable saves but they still get 2+ armour saves. In both cases they get some sort of save, so the only way to kill them is to force wounds in quantity instead of quality. Given that sort of problem, I imagine the only real solution is to throw a unit of cheap gaunts and rippers at the Terminators to tie them down indefinitely and force massive numbers of wounds. The next best option might be a mob of 50 conscripts or 30 grots, though conscripts need a Commissar Lord and Company Command nearby to force successful Orders.

[Gentlemanloser]

Hit 'em with a GK Dreadnought. Less attacks, but still goes before them, Hits on 3's and forces saves onthier Invulnerables. ;)

 

In return they have to roll 4's to glance, instead of forcing any GKT to save on a 5+.

[- 7eAL -]

Hit 'em with a GK Dreadnought. Less attacks, but still goes before them, Hits on 3's and forces saves onthier Invulnerables. ;)

 

In return they have to roll 4's to glance, instead of forcing any GKT to save on a 5+.

Oh true!

 

Nevertheless with only 2 attacks per turn (3 on the charge), a Dread doesn't stand much change of actually killing any of them. With two attacks each, the Terminators stand at fairly good chance of landing at least one penetrating hit. If that Dread is destroyed, it had better pop on a 6 - I would like the Terminators to take one last hit as it goes down.

[Rippars]

Ok thanks for sharing your experiences. Sounds like tough ;).

 

About the gaunts and rippers. Being a nid player myself I can tell you that in 5th that doesn't really work anymore. The new fearless rules makes gaunts die like flies, they cant tarpit anymore.

 

Back to the Inquisition, a Vindicare assasin should be able to annoy them a bit. Hes got AP2, can target them while still in CC and he also has one round of the round that ignores inv. saves which means a kill on a roll of 2+ followed by 4+ (unless the target is in cover). Anyone tried him?

 

/ R

[Coppella]

If your taking an Inquisitor to access an Assassin, just use the Calidus. She'll appear right behind them, and remove any save they might have. She'll kill a fair number of them.

[number6]

If your taking an Inquisitor to access an Assassin, just use the Calidus. She'll appear right behind them, and remove any save they might have. She'll kill a fair number of them.

She'll kill 1.33 of them on average when she charges. Hardly terrifying. Definitely useful, but not terrifying.

 

However, on the charge, 5 GKTs will kill 3.55 of them on average. Now they're down to just 1.45 TH/SS termies left. Job done. Stock GKTs >> Astartes TH/SS.

[- 7eAL -]

If your taking an Inquisitor to access an Assassin, just use the Calidus. She'll appear right behind them, and remove any save they might have. She'll kill a fair number of them.

She'll kill 1.33 of them on average when she charges. Hardly terrifying. Definitely useful, but not terrifying.

 

However, on the charge, 5 GKTs will kill 3.55 of them on average. Now they're down to just 1.45 TH/SS termies left. Job done. Stock GKTs >> Astartes TH/SS.

Indisputable mathhammer is indisputable.

[Justicar Valius]

How about both? I have both and use both...

 

His face would be all like :o and mine would be all like ;)

[Narthecium]

In an inquisition list (not pure GK) I would use stormtroopers to try and melta that LRC and then try to drown the TH/SS terminators in hellgun and stormbolter fire. Granted I'm talking best case scenario here (that is, being able to down the LRC).

[Daedalus Templarius]

I lab'd this type of scenario a few times with my GKTs+GM vs TH/SS terms+SM Captain w/ relic blade

 

GKTs came out 2/3 times on top, but quite depleted. Last game my opponent tied his TH/SS termies up in a giant brawl with my allies death company... I scooted right by to contest another objective. Another game he did manage to weather the fire of 2 land raiders(1 lrc 1 godhammer) and an entire GKT squad with 2 psycannons with his TH/SS terms... I think he lost 1 guy.

 

I'm terrible at making terminator saves, its like rolling 1s on command.

[Narthecium]

You too? I had a bad day where my Brother Captain with psycannon scattered wrong on the deepstrike within range of some eldar, and died to one shuriken pistol shot.

 

"Brothers! The Warriors of the Inqui-*pew*-urk!......."

[SamaNagol]

Would the difference be particularly noticable between PAGK and GKT? You are effectively only reducing their save from a 2+ to a 3+ anyway. For 250pts you can get a unit of 9 PAGK compared to 5 GKT. You're still swinging first and hitting on 3s with the PAGK. Admittedly when the remaining Assault Terms swing back they will splat a couple more back than they would if they were in TA.

 

I get 5 GKT with BC only killing 2.9 TH/SS on the charge. And if they get charged themselves it is only 2. 2 attacks base, 3 base for the BC. Hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s, saving on 3s.

 

9 PAGK on the charge or being charged will always kill just over 2 a turn regardless. 2 attacks base, 3 for the Justicar. Hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s and saving on 2s. But they are also scoring units. And are more useful in other roles.

[number6]

I get 5 GKT with BC only killing 2.9 TH/SS on the charge.

16 attacks (11 + 5 for the charge) x 2/3 (hits) x 5/6 (wounds) x 1/3 (unsaved wounds) = 2.96 killed. You are correct. Not sure where I got the 3.55 from. ^_^ Still, that will almost always be 3 dead out of 5 total, and the two remaining will kill, on average, just 1.11 GKTs in return. The combat is still way solidly in favor of the GKTs.

And if they get charged themselves it is only 2. 2 attacks base, 3 base for the BC. Hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s, saving on 3s.

11 x 2/3 x 1/3 = 2.44 dead.

 

Assuming charging Astartes TH/SS, and that the GKTs kill just 2 of the Astartes, the remaining 3 TH/SS termies will kill, on average, 2.5 GKTs. Essentially, it's a drawn combat. And a drawn combat is the most likely outcome when the Astartes are charging. If the same number of GKTs are facing off the same number of Astartes without any charge bonuses included, the odds again favor the GKTs.

 

Which means the worst-case scenario for a GKT-Astartes matchup is a drawn combat in the situation when the Astartes charge. All other situations favor the GKTs ultimately winning. And if the GKTs charge, the odds are they will win big.

 

9 PAGK on the charge or being charged will always kill just over 2 a turn regardless. 2 attacks base, 3 for the Justicar. Hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s and saving on 2s. But they are also scoring units. And are more useful in other roles.

8 PAGKs: 16 (attacks) x 2/3 (hits) x 5/6 (wounds) x 1/6 (unsaved wounds) = 1.48 killed

1 PAGK Justicar: 3 (attacks) x 2/3 (hits) x 5/6 (wounds) x 1/3 (unsaved wounds) = .55 killed

Total killed by 9-strong PAGK unit: 2.03 Astartes Termies

 

Sorry, but the GKTs outperform the PAGKs rather significantly.

[Justicar Valius]

well I am thinking... Callidus... eh? neural shredder...

 

If you hit all 5 with the template odds are you will get 1. If you get 3 you should get 0.6...

 

In combat 4x2/3x1/2 = 1.3 (i dont know recurring symbol) so depending on template placement you get (assuming you get 3) just under 2.

Striking back a good 10 attacks 5 hits, 4 or 5 wounds = dead callidus... :(

 

GKT's are better but if you have both... :o

 

And nobody has been adding in 6/8/10 stormbolter shots!!! right lets assume 6 (BC and 1 spec weapon trooper have smothing else) 4 hits 2 wounds = 0.3 dead terminators not great but a chance and if the BC and other troopers have psycannons!!!! 4 hits 3/4 wounds = 0.6 dead terminators!!! add em together and youve got a decent chance of killing an extra terminator!

 

+1 PoTMS lascannon shots (remember are PoTMS is NOT Bs2 check our FAQ) that is (assuming it hits which is a really god chance) 0.83 (3 recuurs) wounds with save = 0.53 dead terminators... All adds up. Only things everything else goes unshot... Hope you have some other units left over... You should sweep them away.

 

Now if this is their main power unit you may have pressed the auto win button... :D Also another thing is to offer sacrifices to the dice gods "Oh great and mighty dice gods! Give me the power to roll well enough to destroy his units! Sacrifices will include TH/SS terminators! OH Great and Mighty dice gods hear my prayer!"

[Spacefrisian]

Why not try ramming them with a tank. If they fail their Ld you just let them run until they are of the board. (its also a move not many would expect.)

[Okidus]

THSS termies will beat a dread, best chance is to ignore them, second is to assault w your GKT.

[SamaNagol]

I get 5 GKT with BC only killing 2.9 TH/SS on the charge.

16 attacks (11 + 5 for the charge) x 2/3 (hits) x 5/6 (wounds) x 1/3 (unsaved wounds) = 2.96 killed. You are correct. Not sure where I got the 3.55 from. ;) Still, that will almost always be 3 dead out of 5 total, and the two remaining will kill, on average, just 1.11 GKTs in return. The combat is still way solidly in favor of the GKTs.

And if they get charged themselves it is only 2. 2 attacks base, 3 base for the BC. Hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s, saving on 3s.

11 x 2/3 x 1/3 = 2.44 dead.

 

Assuming charging Astartes TH/SS, and that the GKTs kill just 2 of the Astartes, the remaining 3 TH/SS termies will kill, on average, 2.5 GKTs. Essentially, it's a drawn combat. And a drawn combat is the most likely outcome when the Astartes are charging. If the same number of GKTs are facing off the same number of Astartes without any charge bonuses included, the odds again favor the GKTs.

 

Which means the worst-case scenario for a GKT-Astartes matchup is a drawn combat in the situation when the Astartes charge. All other situations favor the GKTs ultimately winning. And if the GKTs charge, the odds are they will win big.

 

9 PAGK on the charge or being charged will always kill just over 2 a turn regardless. 2 attacks base, 3 for the Justicar. Hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s and saving on 2s. But they are also scoring units. And are more useful in other roles.

8 PAGKs: 16 (attacks) x 2/3 (hits) x 5/6 (wounds) x 1/6 (unsaved wounds) = 1.48 killed

1 PAGK Justicar: 3 (attacks) x 2/3 (hits) x 5/6 (wounds) x 1/3 (unsaved wounds) = .55 killed

Total killed by 9-strong PAGK unit: 2.03 Astartes Termies

 

Sorry, but the GKTs outperform the PAGKs rather significantly.

 

Yeh, that's what I said. I wouldn't say that is significantly out performing, and I did give the GKTs the credit of actually winning the combat. But PAGK are useful in the fact that firstly they are scoring which is vital for 2/3 of missions, and when you are possibly playing with up to 5 objectives on the board every scoring unit helps.

 

I guess in my opinion the trade off of an extra half Terminator dead isn't worth it. And that is just personal preference. I agree they are more effective though, as the numbers show. Technically on the charge it is the same difference. 18 shots from the PAGK will cause 1 dead Terminator. 10 shots from the GKT will kill 0.55. So on the charge with shots that's PAGK killing 3.03 and the GKT killing 3.52. I would feel confident charging a unit of 5 TH/SS Terminators with 9 PAGK because statistically I should win the combat. And unless I make boo boo, they should never charge me if I am kiting effectively.

 

But in the end, my tactics against a LR with TH/SS Terms inside would be to shoot it with 4 Lascannon a turn, and then use the Heavy Bolters plus Storm bolters from my PAGK and the Assault Cannon and Hurri-Bolters on my LRC to drown the buggers in dice. T4 and only one save isn't that nasty when you compare them to the killing power of Cybork Nobz with 2 wounds each in Battlewagons with a Painboy and lots of Claws. That scares me more than a handful of Thunder Hammers and shields.

 

In games of under 2000pts I wouldn't take GKTs. 2000pts and above I would feel comfortable doing so as the extra killing power and survivability is of value once objective holding has been covered.

[Gentlemanloser]

A Bar bones 5 man GKT Squad costs 245 points.

 

You can have a GK Dread for (let's say a MM version) 120. So can have two of these for the same cost.

 

Of course they won't kill more then the GKT, but needing 4's to Glance, They're more durable when facing Thunderhammers then our more expensive GKT with only a 5+ Save.

 

You could always use one to tar pit for a round or two to nulify the DS/Drop Pod/LR charge, and get yourself into position.

[Narthecium]

I hate to really sound simple minded here, but wouldn't the best way to handle assault termies is simply not to get into assault with them? If you can wreck their transport (with your own lascannons) then you shouldn't have too much of a problem staying away from footslogging termies, particularly considering most of our weapons are Assault.

 

Why on earth would you force an assault with assault terminators? I mean if it comes down to assault or be assaulted, then yes you would much rather assault...I mean I know it's a little difficult with AV14 transports but I wouldn't rely on out assaulting them.

 

If you were determined to use GKTs to take em down you could always screen the GKTs with a bare bones IST squad or some inducted guard maybe.

[avatar8481]

@Narthecium: Sadly the way our army list works now there's no good way to get the fast mobile MM you need to reliably kill the hammer-unit LR in the back field. A twin linked lascannon has a 10% chance of getting an immobilized or better result on a Land Raider (89% chance to hit, 16% chance to Pen, 50% chance to immobilize or better+ 16% chance to glance and a 16% chance to immobilize). So for each LR in your army, assuming you're taking god-hammer, you have a 20% chance to permanently stop his hammer unit every turn. Not counting his cover saves. Unless you can take a melta gun up this face those terminators will, more often than not, get to you in assault.

 

The most mobile MM in the army is unfortunately ISTs stuck in a chimera, which aren't *that* mobile, but it's the best we can do. It also pushes *competitive* Inquisition builds all in the same direction. A couple IST squads in Chimaras and GKT in LR, that's basically it.

[number6]

The most mobile MM in the army is unfortunately ISTs stuck in a chimera, which aren't *that* mobile, but it's the best we can do. It also pushes *competitive* Inquisition builds all in the same direction. A couple IST squads in Chimaras and GKT in LR, that's basically it.

If you can spare the points, allied Sisters with meltas in Rhinos are awesome additions. But they do cost enough more that it can mean sacrifices elsewhere. Really, there isn't a lot of choice anymore. :)

[Marshal van Trapp]

or an allied celestian squad with 2 melta, in an immolator with twin MM

 

the chances are something like this:

Immolator: 1 shot X 89% to hit (cause of twin-linked) X 1/2 to penetrate (7/12 if you count glancing) x 1/2 to stop it dead (1/6 if you glance) = 22.25% chance to stop its progress (around a 16.66% if you glance)

Celestians: 2 shots X 2/3 to hit X 1/2 to penetrate (7/12 counting glancing) x 1/2 to stop it dead (1/6 if you glance) = 33.33% chance to stop its progress (13% if you glance)

 

gives you around a 50/50 chance, granted the unit costs 170 pts

[SamaNagol]

I played a Crimson Fists force today with 2 units of 5 TH/SS Terms both in LRs.

 

You know what I realised? THs can only glance a Land Raider on a 6 anyway. I'll happily let them charge me, the absolute worst they can do is an immobilised result. At which point I climb out of the Land Raider, shoot them with every thing on the tank, a full unit worth of storm bolters and then charge. That is 3.5 dead in the first turn, they kill 2 back. If that last 2 passes their LD test, they are dead in his assault phase. I'm not too bothered about them. Just stay in your mobile bunker firing Lascannons at the LR transport for them and if they make it across the board let them climb out and knock on your doors to see if you want to come out to play.

 

So whatever you choose to take, be it a big unit of PAGK or GKT, let those Astartes Terms come to you, then shoot and charge them at the last moment. Numerically you will wipe them out in time to climb back in your transport in your next player turn.