ant7 Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 I am wanting to start a space marine army but I don't have that much experience with marines and from what I have read vanilla marines aren't the most close combat oriented force. Is this true or can it be done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp Angel Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Vanilla marines have some significant issues with trying to be an "assaulty force" Our HQ's generally don't get things like Eternal Warrior, which means they die fairly easily to S8 or higher hits. Upgrading saves and invulns tends to be expensive (artificer armor and storm shield), and you can quickly add upgrades to a character that could get you a combat squad and a transport for the cost. Additionally, most of our specialist units are not all that great compared to Eldar, Chaos, etc, and tend to suffer against horde armies (Orks, Guard). That said, the most effective combat units we have are: HQ ------ Lysander is a beast. Expensive, but about as potent as you can get in a Vanilla HQ. Needs a LR transport to be effective. Marneus Calgar is even more expensive, but arguably better. Needs a LR to be effective, though can be transported in regular equipment. Pedro Kanto isn't great by himself, but he makes everyone around him better. Chaplains are absolutely AMAZING at increasing the power of other CC units and characters, but are mediocre otherwise with only 2 wounds and low I. Librarians provide flexibility and a force weapon, but are hurt by low wounds, and relatively low I. Khossaro Khan provides furious charge and has a good sword. A bike command squad kitted out for CC can be absolutely brutal, but almost requires the addition of a chaplain and another character (Khan works best), and costs a metric boatload of points. Honor guard can be kitted out for hand to hand, but I'm not a fan of the cost to benefit ratio. Elites ------- Assault Terminators with TH/SS are about as good as it gets, but they really need a transport to be effective. Benefit greatly from Khan, Pedro, or a Chaplain, less so from Lysander or Calgar. Basic Terminators suffer from lack of a good invuln save. Dreadnaught/Ironclad Dreadnaught - As long as you aren't facing a monstrous creature, or a full squad of SM terminators, these guys are near unstoppable at their points cost. I seldom go anywhere without a drop podded Ironclad these days. Fast ------ Assault Marines - really only useful against basic troops, lack of invulns and limited power weapon availability hurts. Vanguard Marines - A significant upgrade to assault marines, if they are upgraded to have jump packs, I think they become too expensive for their killing capability, and prefer to spend those points on a Land Raider. I'm honestly not a big fan of them or assault marines in a Vanilla force, but many are. Those are your limited options, and when you consider you're looking at 200-500 points for each of those choices, things start to come into perspective. Compare an assault squad at around 200 points (after upgrades) to 30 Ork Boyz and a Nob with a Power Klaw at around the same points or pit them against the same points in Khorne Berzerkers. Compare a Space Marine HQ to a Winged Demon Prince with Warptime or an Ork Warboss with 'Eavy Armor, Attack Squig, and Power Klaw. Compare an Ironclad Dreadnaught to a Carnifex or Wraithlord. Look at a pimped out bike command squad compared to a Nob Bikerz squad. It's essentially a suboptimal choice, but can be done. Best of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant7 Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 Warp Angel-thanks for the detailed reply, that was what I was looking for. So if i was planning on building a vanilla marine army I should just concentrate on the shooty aspect it looks like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Warp Angel-thanks for the detailed reply, that was what I was looking for. So if i was planning on building a vanilla marine army I should just concentrate on the shooty aspect it looks like. Not at all. A totally shooty Marine Army with little or no dedicated CC ability will suffer when faced with the inevitable CC situation. It's worthwhile using Assault units as counter charge assets behind the shooty stuff or coming in from reserve, and by the same token it's worhwhile using the Tactical Squads or other troops as Combat Support units, supporting the Assault with their firepower, or using Tactical bodies to even up the numbers or help tarpit units or specific models. Having said that, if you want a fast, mobile CC oriented army, then investing in Bikers is well worth a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Xeones Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Shouldn't this whole thread be moved to Army List Reviews/Codex: Space Marine Army Lists? :D If he wanted to discuss the units, strategies, and tactics of an assault oriented SM list, that would be one thing, but it sounds like he just wants someone to make him a list... ...I'm not trying to back-seat mod, but this seems a little out of place atm. Warp Angel didn't mention CC scout squads, which are the only other dedicated CC unit worth mentioning in the SM list (IMO). They aren't amazing since they've got inferior stats and armor saves to a standard SM, but they are fairly cheap and they are scoring. This isn't a unit that you'd want to spam multiples of in most circustances, but a full squad of 10 scouts (half BP/CCW; half with shotguns) lead by a PF Sergeant, isn't such a bad little unit for outflanking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Warp Angel-thanks for the detailed reply, that was what I was looking for. So if i was planning on building a vanilla marine army I should just concentrate on the shooty aspect it looks like. I'd say that a well played and well made Loyalist army needs to think in terms of both shooting and assault. Not to say you can't emphasize one over the other, but both matter to a balanced army like SMs. I'd look towards your elites and HQ for your assault power. TH/SS and twin Claw Terminators in a LRC, maybe supported by a cheap Chaplain are a very tough assault unit. Relic Blade Captain with a cheapish Command squad in a Rhino/Razorback can be a solid assaulter. Epistolary with AP3 Flamer and the 5++ shield powers backed up by a 10 man Assault squad with a Power Fist Sarge is fast and deadly I started a whole topic about why people seem to ignore the HtH Scouts. They're cheaper and usually more deadly then Tacticals. Dreadnoughts, especially the Ironclad make for a nice assault unit. They're also a good way to back up the more basic squads (like those HtH Scouts). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Shouldn't this whole thread be moved to Army List Reviews/Codex: Space Marine Army Lists? :D Reviews is mostly "I have made this list, critique it", this post is more "how would I make this flavour of list" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant7 Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 Brother Xeones- I don't want someone to make a list for me. I am new to marines and I have read that they aren't really a good CC oriented army, so I was asking if it was possible to do, generally speaking. Actually minigun762 as I have been reading through the replies and other posts I am thinking the way to go is a more balanced list. This actually sounds like fun to me since my old CSM army was totally geared for CC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 More balanced is always good- though if you want balanced and assault oriented then theres always BA and SWs. I hear BT are good in assault :). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Warp Angel's list leaves out two CC-oriented units. First is Shrike. His universal granting of Fleet to everyone is a huge boon to a CC-based army. That extra bit of movement every turn in exchange for shooting is very useful, though limited. Marine CC tends to rely on a salco of pistol shots or assault weapons to soften up a target before the charge. Fleeting chops out the shooting for that unit for the turn, though it would work if you had a supporting unit doing the shooting, and the Fleeting unit uses the extra movement to hit the target from a little further away. Second are Choppy Scouts. These guys are only WS/BS 3, but they can put out a ton of attacks on the charge. They also have grenades for assaulting armor. Add into the mix the fact that they can infiltrate, and then scout move, and they're a potential first-turn charge unit, especially when your army includes Shrike. They won't last through a protracted combat, due to poor (for a Marine anyway) WS and armor save, but that initial charge can make some heads roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Xeones Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Brother Xeones- I don't want someone to make a list for me. I am new to marines and I have read that they aren't really a good CC oriented army, so I was asking if it was possible to do, generally speaking. Fair enough. My apologies for misunderstanding your intent. And I think you are headed in the right direction by going with a more balanced build. Loyalist Space Marines are a force of generalists. They are slightly above average at just about everything, but they don't truly excel at anything in particular. Forcing them to specialize (in this case specialize towards a more CC oriented force) means you will likely find it difficult to beat a dedicated assault army. Marine's strength in being a generalist army is that they can play to exploit any other army's weakness. For instance, Marines can shoot the assaulty stuff and assault the shooty stuff --all with very little change to the actual army construction. Denying this generalist nature by specializing too much means denying one of the greatest strengths of marines --flexibility. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I'm just saying that you need to seriously think through things before specializing an entire force of marines toward close combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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