thade Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 I haven't yet confronted it, but it's bound to come up. My army is codex and assault marine heavy (two ten-man assault squads and a five man flying vanguard) and my understanding is Lash can move a unit whereever it wants...so I'm worried about him hopping my jump marines 12" into really bad places. I got a librarian to deal with it (hood); but what kind of a problem is it? Is it just a nuisance or can it be deadly (as I suspect it can)? What's the range on it? How many Chaos pieces can cast it? Is it reasonable to try and bring that piece down first, is it avoidable? Basically this ability is a scary black box to me...I'm hoping some of you can shed some light into it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Somar Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 it is a power that can be taken by sorcerers or demon princes, and it is very effective. it is usually taken in combination with several units of obliterators, the lash will pull your unit out of cover, into the open and bunch them up real tight, the the heavy plasma guns will start flying... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2070369 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donkeycow Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 well Lash is a pretty powerful spell and to be honest other then a psychic hood there is not that much of a defense against it, my advice kill the lasher ASAP haha, failing that get your vulnerable units into CC quickly, also what you may wanna try is just avoid LOS from the caster (that would work with this spell right?) i know it's not much help but it's all i could say 'cause i have only faced Lash casters 2 or 3 times. i field an assault based army too (i am blood angels after all) and i just smashed the foolish sorcerers in my matches! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2070374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawkins Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Rhinos and LR's. keep troops in transports and target the casters. Massed fire should bring the daemon princes down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2070389 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund's Ghost Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Dawkins has it. Mech makes lash sorcerors cry. Stay on the bus 'till they are dead and you have no problems. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2070391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 The first few times you face it you will probably think its the most OP ability ever. But get some practice and learn to work around it and its not so bad in the end. Still a powerful ability of course, but it is managable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2070399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Moo Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Playing mainly with Grey Knights, i beat the bejebus outta anything heretic, so nice probs for me. But what ive seen others do is ride the bus till the witch is dead. LRs are good for this, as well as Valkaries too! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2070407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Well for Codex guys theres always the Psychic hood... works ok I suppose. Then for SWs theres Wolf Tail Talismans- 6+ save to avoid the effect, and you can have one per character or wolf gaurd in the unit. Other than that... theres always a powerfist to the face, tends to work well enough- and remember, you cant use psychic powers that work like shooting when your in CC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2070430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Using bikes and turbo boosting them towards them might be an option. Bikes can't be pinned when they turboboost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2070493 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Using bikes and turbo boosting them towards them might be an option. Bikes can't be pinned when they turboboost. And the Sorc can't take away their cover save for fast movement, unlike pulling Infantry out of buildings. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2070555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 Hmm. Then I might need to drop $ on Rhinos sooner than expected. What I'm getting out of this is: - Try to tie the caster up in assault. - Failing that, bring him down with mech (dreads, tanks, LR), keep everyone else away/on transports. I've only faced a Demon Prince once...but it was a nightmare. I tore through the entire Chaos army like tissue paper, then the lone Demon Prince managed to kill my last few assault marines, pop a dreadnought, then eat an entire tac squad before I took him down. (800 pt game). I dropped him at the end with my last standing unit...a dread with a multimelta. Needless to say, the things have me a little worried. That one did not have lash. ^_^ He can only use it once per turn, right? So if I send two or three units his way, only one of them won't make it (if the lib fails to cancel the power's effect). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2070729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 He can only use it once per turn, right? So if I send two or three units his way, only one of them won't make it (if the lib fails to cancel the power's effect). He can only do it once a turn (unless he has 2 users), however if your coming towards him fast he may just bring you to him faster (so your well cut off from the rest of your army) and then charge a couple of units of Berzerkers into you which can easily take care of assault marines or he might just drag you through terrain (making assault marines take dangerous terrain tests I think?) and then put you into a nice little bundle and drop plasma plates or other pie plates of doom on your head. Remember if your a vehicles or inside you it can't hurt touch you! if you hide behind the vehicle(blocking LOS) or out of LOS or 24 inches it can't get you. You could use heroic intervention I guess if you wanted to gamble (but thats waiting until 2nd turn at least). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2070747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Hmm. Then I might need to drop $ on Rhinos sooner than expected. What I'm getting out of this is:- Try to tie the caster up in assault. - Failing that, bring him down with mech (dreads, tanks, LR), keep everyone else away/on transports. I've only faced a Demon Prince once...but it was a nightmare. I tore through the entire Chaos army like tissue paper, then the lone Demon Prince managed to kill my last few assault marines, pop a dreadnought, then eat an entire tac squad before I took him down. (800 pt game). I dropped him at the end with my last standing unit...a dread with a multimelta. Needless to say, the things have me a little worried. That one did not have lash. :drool: He can only use it once per turn, right? So if I send two or three units his way, only one of them won't make it (if the lib fails to cancel the power's effect). In 800pts... he killed say 3-4 assault marines, a dreadnaught and a tactical squad? Im not suprised. Hes 125pts, probly winged? 145pts. Dreads die to MCs quickly... Really your best bet is to hit him with a four ML devastator squad turn one and chop most of his wounds off him. Then do it again second turn or atleast force him to keep his head down- that should kill him. If you have a dev squad kitted as such, and two free MLs in tac squads youll kill him in one turn with good rolling. Just the devasatator squad will take him out in two turns with average shots. Deploy back in your DZ, itll take time for him to get to you... should be dead by end of turn 2. Cost of said Devastator squad? 160pts. Each Tac squad is 170 base, with ML.. and it gives you your two troops too. And then you can use it on his troops and tanks for the rest of the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2071124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 To avoid getting lashed, you need to keep as much as you can of your army within rhinos, razorbacks, and land raiders. This will be very hard, because a proper lash player will have a bunch of lascannons on his side to take out those transports, but if you utilize cover well your guys should always have at least some kind of a save, even when being lashed into position. If the opponent goes lash princes you're lucky. Lash princes die FAST to lascannons, meltas, missile launchers, th/ss terminators, or rapid firing sternguard (put 15 wounds on him and let him save that on 3+). Sorcerers are more of a problem because they hide within units, so you can't target them with shooting. The best thing to do is to either lock them down (by tarpitting them in combat) and snipe the obliterators (one unsaved lascannon or melta wound equals an instant-killed obliterator). A hidden power fist or thunder hammer tends to make short work of those sorcerers (they only get a 5+ invulnerable against it). It's not going to be easy, make no mistake about it. Lash is a powerful tactic, still. EDIT: Almost forgot; You can also keep your vulnerable units (such as tac squads, assault marines etc.) so they'd be safe from lash for a few turns. This is particularly true if you're running bikes and the like. These tend to be lashed to oblivion. EDIT#2: Hmm. Then I might need to drop $ on Rhinos sooner than expected. What I'm getting out of this is: You gonna need rhinos in general. They're a very useful and cheap transport. You might also consider investing in a razorback or two. Razorbacks are great transports for command squads and the like. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2071447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 EDIT#2:Hmm. Then I might need to drop $ on Rhinos sooner than expected. What I'm getting out of this is: You gonna need rhinos in general. They're a very useful and cheap transport. You might also consider investing in a razorback or two. Razorbacks are great transports for command squads and the like. To expand on this- ALWAYS buy the Razorback box. For $5 or 2lbs you get the option of using it as a razorback or a rhino and if you have multiples you can have several razorback turrets to switch out... its a very small investment that really comes in handy when you need it. Highly reccommended. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2071518 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 To expand on this- ALWAYS buy the Razorback box. For $5 or 2lbs you get the option of using it as a razorback or a rhino and if you have multiples you can have several razorback turrets to switch out... its a very small investment that really comes in handy when you need it. Highly reccommended. It's £2, not 2lbs... the reason why the two are the same pronounciation is old english history I'd agree with regards to Razorback boxes, with the caveat that the box sets are still good value buys with Rhinos in them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2071595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron-Daemon Forge Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 Vs Lash - Mount units in Rhinos/Razorback/Land Raider - Stern Guards in Drop Pods (or any fourm of transport) & hope you with in rapid fire range (Ap3 ammo) - Librarian - Thunder Hammer Terminators in Land Raider Other than that I not really read much of codex Marines, just more from a chaos player point of view. IP Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2071629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 OK there was one particular question that no one has answered in the OP, I dont know the answer which is why I am pointing it out What's the range on it? Know thy enemy is the name of the game and so can anyone answer this for me? I am running on the assumption that they need LOS as well, could this be confirmed. I have faced lash twice (damn thing kept moving my Carnifex back in one game and moved my Assault Marines back each turn in the other one!!!) though in both these games I failed to ask what the range of the power was. Wan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2071750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanthius Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 Lash of Submission has a range of 24". And the target must be a non-vehicle unit visible to the psyker. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2071841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 I've only faced a Lash list once, in a tourney. it was single-lash, but still annoying. It took me totally by surprise, as I'd heard of it, but had no clue as to what it really did. My opponent used it with a Vindicator instead of Oblits, and I've seen it run with TWO Vindicators and a Prince. The Vindicators roll up with the Prince lurking behind them. He uses his LOS around and above the tanks to yank units into the open, then double-blasts them with the Vindicators. When running a non-mech list and simply trying to avoid LOS, remember that the Prince is often winged, so he can fly his 12" around LOS obstacles, THEN lash your face off. Don't rely on that 4" square tower to protect you! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2071866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 OK there was one particular question that no one has answered in the OP, I dont know the answer which is why I am pointing it out What's the range on it? Know thy enemy is the name of the game and so can anyone answer this for me? I am running on the assumption that they need LOS as well, could this be confirmed. I have faced lash twice (damn thing kept moving my Carnifex back in one game and moved my Assault Marines back each turn in the other one!!!) though in both these games I failed to ask what the range of the power was. Wan My post had the range mentioned in it :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2071947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 At Ard Boyz round 3 in the prelims, my opponent was a nugly lash-prince-oblit-vindie list (see the bat rep). My game came apart in two ways: (1) After the lash/vindie combo destroyed a demi-sternguard squad on turn 1, I tended to shy away from that part of the table until i could deal with the lasher. This gave the opponent the advantage for that table quarter and the objective held there. (2) I tried a direct assault on the sorceror (himself hiding with a demi-squad in the possessed Rhino) - deep striking in a speeder and terminator squad. The plan was to: (a) MM the rhino to get the passengers out; (:lol: hit the now disembarked passengers with Kantor's orbital strike; then © shoot the survivors with the terminator squad (stormbolters and asscannon). IT WENT BADLY. The speeder rolled a 1 for the MM. In response, I then put Kantor's strike on the rhino, and the template deviated 8 inches away, hitting the side armor of another rhino but otherwise doing no damage. Lastly, the terminators tried, and the asscannon just immobilized the rhino. On the next opponent turn, he dismounted the sorceror and squad, plus the squad from the other rhino, and shot then charged my terminators and speeder. The speeder was stunned, and the terminators died in HTH against 15+ chaos marines who all seemed to be T5 or FNP. In retrospect it would have been better to NOT do this. I should have stayed with my plan to stay strong in the objective quarter and go after his other two rhinos of chaos marines there, as it was, the loss of the terminators and speeders made my attack weak, and I lost that quarter on the last turn. The sorceror lived to see the end of the battle. Learning experience: Against lash you have three choices: (1) kill the lasher; (2) kill the unit he lashes for; or (3) stay on your game and make him respond to you, rather than you to him. #3 is preferred. If you know you will be fighting a lash list or any list with a sorceror or psycher, certainly bring a librarian. Sorcerors lashing from a chaos, possessed rhino, is a tough way to spend firepower. In my case, terminators coming in from the board edge would have been a better gambit. As it was my other speeder took on two rhinos of nurgly marines and it dod not go well there either. T5 +/- FNP, whatever, really reduces effectiveness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2071957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 To expand on this- ALWAYS buy the Razorback box. For $5 or 2lbs you get the option of using it as a razorback or a rhino and if you have multiples you can have several razorback turrets to switch out... its a very small investment that really comes in handy when you need it. Highly reccommended. It's £2, not 2lbs... the reason why the two are the same pronounciation is old english history I'd agree with regards to Razorback boxes, with the caveat that the box sets are still good value buys with Rhinos in them. *nods* Im aware of the difference... but I dont have access to that symbol on my keybaord sadly. And yeah, battleforces and such with rhinos are still cool. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2073243 Share on other sites More sharing options...
avatar8481 Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 It's worth noting that the solution to most people's problems, lash or otherwise, all end up as, "put your guys in transports/go full mech". If you're already in transports than you might have to think about it, but given the number of people still trying to make 4th ed battleforce mixed bag armies work, the first step is always, "buy more rhinos." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2073252 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 *nods* Im aware of the difference... but I dont have access to that symbol on my keybaord sadly. Hold ALT and type 0 1 6 3 on the numpad It's worth noting that the solution to most people's problems, lash or otherwise, all end up as, "put your guys in transports/go full mech". If you're already in transports than you might have to think about it, but given the number of people still trying to make 4th ed battleforce mixed bag armies work, the first step is always, "buy more rhinos." Quoted and Limed for Truth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/175157-how-do-space-marines-deal-with-lash/#findComment-2073264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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