How do Space Marines deal with Lash?

[Grey Mage]

£

 

Hrmm... nice trick. Thanks Koremu, thatll come in handy.

[Azulz]

Lash of Submission has a range of 24". And the target must be a non-vehicle unit visible to the psyker.

 

Remember "Lash of Submission has a range of 24". And the target must be a non-vehicle ENEMY unit visible to the psyker. So the Lasher cannot move his own units around the table.

Yes I tried to do this then had my own codex shoved in my face :)

[Azulz]

If the opponent goes lash princes you're lucky. Lash princes die FAST to lascannons, meltas, missile launchers, th/ss terminators, or rapid firing sternguard (put 15 wounds on him and let him save that on 3+).

 

Sorcerers are more of a problem because they hide within units, so you can't target them with shooting. The best thing to do is to either lock them down (by tarpitting them in combat) and snipe the obliterators (one unsaved lascannon or melta wound equals an instant-killed obliterator). A hidden power fist or thunder hammer tends to make short work of those sorcerers (they only get a 5+ invulnerable against it).<---Quoted from GIGA ( coldnt figure out how to quote part of a reply :) )

 

In regards to this, yes Princes die quickly to all of these but so do the Sorcerers. Yes they can hide in a unit but IMO this limits the Sorcs abilities alot because I believe that most CSM players are going to run their Sorcs as follows...(at least this is what I do and this what i see alot of other players doing)

Sorcerer with

Familiar giving them 2 powers to utilize. This will almost always be Lash & Warptime!

Mark of Slaanesh giving them and/or Prince ini 6.

And here is the kicker...Mount of Slaanesh giving them the ability to assault 12" and Fleet since MOS puts the Sorc on a Horse making him cavalry!

[Brightguy]

GBP 2 is also generally accepted although not preferred if £2 is unavailable.

[Grey Mage]

So what happens here is the Sorc has warptime at the begining of his turn and then moves 6" then Lash's said unit closer to him or any unit he may want to assault the target unit with. He then comes charging in from 12" away with an ini of 6 almost always going first then chooses that special character of yours to perform a Force weapon test on! After all is said and done he has almost always killed atleast 5 of you guys and possibly 6 of them because Warptime is ever so helpful(with the rerolling of all failed misses to hit and wound) then sweeping advances you because if you havent taken away his measley 3 wounds then your on the bad end of the stick :wub:

Except that would be three psychic powers a turn, and a familiar only lets you do 2.... so this tactic doesnt work at all.

[Br.Pat]

And how can you Sweeping Advance Space Marines? Doesn't the "And They Shall Have No Fear" rule keep that from happening? The sorcerer would then be held up in close combat so you can charge him with something that can splat him like a dreadnought or a unit of terminators.

[Grey Mage]

And how can you Sweeping Advance Space Marines? Doesn't the "And They Shall Have No Fear" rule keep that from happening? The sorcerer would then be held up in close combat so you can charge him with something that can splat him like a dreadnought or a unit of terminators.

Chaos Marines dont get "And they shall know no fear". Instead they either get a rerollable leadership or Fearless.

[Koremu]

And how can you Sweeping Advance Space Marines? Doesn't the "And They Shall Have No Fear" rule keep that from happening? The sorcerer would then be held up in close combat so you can charge him with something that can splat him like a dreadnought or a unit of terminators.

Chaos Marines dont get "And they shall know no fear". Instead they either get a rerollable leadership or Fearless.

They don't neccessarily get rerollable Ld, IIRC. They have to take that in lieu of getting a mark for the unit.

[Grey Mage]

Your right... its not automatic, in fact it is its own icon- Of Chaos Glory. I was just listing the "abnormal" leadership abilities they have. Sorry for the confusion.

[Azulz]

So what happens here is the Sorc has warptime at the begining of his turn and then moves 6" then Lash's said unit closer to him or any unit he may want to assault the target unit with. He then comes charging in from 12" away with an ini of 6 almost always going first then chooses that special character of yours to perform a Force weapon test on! After all is said and done he has almost always killed atleast 5 of you guys and possibly 6 of them because Warptime is ever so helpful(with the rerolling of all failed misses to hit and wound) then sweeping advances you because if you havent taken away his measley 3 wounds then your on the bad end of the stick :lol:

Except that would be three psychic powers a turn, and a familiar only lets you do 2.... so this tactic doesnt work at all.

*bows* touche, that would be three but since force weapon test isn't restricted by the "how many psyker tests per turn" rule it would still be allowed.

onguarde- familiar only lets you epuip the psyker with an extra spell, not perform two per turn.

this still wouldnt be allowed because i was confusing Mark of slaannesh(lash of submission) with Mark of Tzeentch (ability to use two psyker powers per turn)

but not using Warptime would not prevent someone from using this strategy.

[Grey Mage]

Hrmm... my bad then, I was sure that a Force Weapon used one of your psychic tests for the turn.

[Br.Pat]

And how can you Sweeping Advance Space Marines? Doesn't the "And They Shall Have No Fear" rule keep that from happening? The sorcerer would then be held up in close combat so you can charge him with something that can splat him like a dreadnought or a unit of terminators.

Chaos Marines dont get "And they shall know no fear". Instead they either get a rerollable leadership or Fearless.

 

I am aware of that but what I meant is that you can't SA Space Marines because their ATSKNF rule keeps them from being destroyed that way

[Azulz]

Hrmm... my bad then, I was sure that a Force Weapon used one of your psychic tests for the turn.

I know that all force weapon tests coming from CSM psykers arent restricted but i dont know about other armies... what does yours say about that? It should say something like"the psyker can still perform this test even if he has used another psyker power this turn"

[Koremu]

Hrmm... my bad then, I was sure that a Force Weapon used one of your psychic tests for the turn.

I know that all force weapon tests coming from CSM psykers arent restricted but i dont know about other armies... what does yours say about that? It should say something like"the psyker can still perform this test even if he has used another psyker power this turn"

Wait, where do you get the idea that CSM sorcs aren't restricted? Their Force Weapons use the standard FW rules from the book unless I am very much mistaken.

 

The only people who can use 3 psychic powers including the Force Weapon power in a single turn are Tigurius, Ahriman and Typhus, AFAICR.

[Br.Pat]

Hrmm... my bad then, I was sure that a Force Weapon used one of your psychic tests for the turn.

I know that all force weapon tests coming from CSM psykers arent restricted but i dont know about other armies... what does yours say about that? It should say something like"the psyker can still perform this test even if he has used another psyker power this turn"

Wait, where do you get the idea that CSM sorcs aren't restricted? Their Force Weapons use the standard FW rules from the book unless I am very much mistaken.

 

The only people who can use 3 psychic powers including the Force Weapon power in a single turn are Tigurius, Ahriman and Typhus, AFAICR.

 

QFT

[Azulz]

Hrmm... my bad then, I was sure that a Force Weapon used one of your psychic tests for the turn.

I know that all force weapon tests coming from CSM psykers arent restricted but i dont know about other armies... what does yours say about that? It should say something like"the psyker can still perform this test even if he has used another psyker power this turn"

Wait, where do you get the idea that CSM sorcs aren't restricted? Their Force Weapons use the standard FW rules from the book unless I am very much mistaken.

 

The only people who can use 3 psychic powers including the Force Weapon power in a single turn are Tigurius, Ahriman and Typhus, AFAICR.

It specifically says" this test can still be performed even if the psyker has used a psyker power this turn" Ill ref the page later when im away from work. Also Typhus can do this because he inately performs his two powers without having to roll on it. And if you carefully read the rules for Ahriman again it makes it possible for him to perform four or five tests in a single turn. Im pretty sure its four but I always hear that Warptime isnt considered during the turn or something so it could possibly be five.

[Grey Mage]

Hrmm... my bad then, I was sure that a Force Weapon used one of your psychic tests for the turn.

I know that all force weapon tests coming from CSM psykers arent restricted but i dont know about other armies... what does yours say about that? It should say something like"the psyker can still perform this test even if he has used another psyker power this turn"

Wait, where do you get the idea that CSM sorcs aren't restricted? Their Force Weapons use the standard FW rules from the book unless I am very much mistaken.

 

The only people who can use 3 psychic powers including the Force Weapon power in a single turn are Tigurius, Ahriman and Typhus, AFAICR.

It specifically says" this test can still be performed even if the psyker has used a psyker power this turn" Ill ref the page later when im away from work. Also Typhus can do this because he inately performs his two powers without having to roll on it. And if you carefully read the rules for Ahriman again it makes it possible for him to perform four or five tests in a single turn. Im pretty sure its four but I always hear that Warptime isnt considered during the turn or something so it could possibly be five.

It says no such thing. C:CSM says on pg.84 to use the rules from the BRB, and the BRB on pg. 50 states that a force weapon gives you an additional psychic power that allows you to cause instant death in CC.... and specificly states that a model can normally only use one power a turn. It also states you can only use this power against a single opponent damaged by the psycher in that CC phase.

[Koremu]

It specifically says" this test can still be performed even if the psyker has used a psyker power this turn" Ill ref the page later when im away from work. Also Typhus can do this because he inately performs his two powers without having to roll on it. And if you carefully read the rules for Ahriman again it makes it possible for him to perform four or five tests in a single turn. Im pretty sure its four but I always hear that Warptime isnt considered during the turn or something so it could possibly be five.

Everything you wrote in this post was wrong.

 

The "this test can still be peformed" part is from the description of Typhus' Manreaper Deamon Force Weapon. Specifically; "Typhus may take this test even if he has used one of his psychic powers in the same turn" p55 Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Normal Force Weapons use the WH40k book rules (p 84 C:CSM, p50 BRB)

 

Ahriman's Black Staff has the specific note "it allows Ahriman to make up to three psychic tests in the same turn (one of these may be to use the special ability of his force weapon)" p51 C:CSM

 

And Warptime is used "at the start of any player's turn" p88 C:CSM - with the psychic power counting towards the limit noted in the main rulebook of "one psychic power per player turn" p50 BRB unless the psyker has some means of having more powers per turn.

 

 

So, to summarize; Chaos Space Marine Sorcerers use exactly the same Force Weapon rules as Codex Librarians, Force Weapon use counting towards their per-player-turn limit of Psychic Powers, requiring Psychic tests as normal and only usable once per player turn.

[Azulz]

*pulls fingers out of ears* sorry, I did remember that wrong. Thanks for the Typhus clarification. I was remembering that statement as if it pertained to Ahirman...I guess this is what I get for trying to remember rules and quote them while at work with out my books around me :blush: This feels like that one time when all i could roll was ones for Abadons Demon weapon ;) This brings up another question though...If warptime is at the beggining of PLAYER turn can we use it at beggining of opponents turn? This has really gotten away from the lash question but since this is all true then my respects to Grey Mage for he was correct stating that the previous strategy could not be used. :thanks:

[Koremu]

If warptime is at the beggining of PLAYER turn can we use it at beggining of opponents turn?

Yes.

[Grey Mage]

*pulls fingers out of ears* sorry, I did remember that wrong. Thanks for the Typhus clarification. I was remembering that statement as if it pertained to Ahirman...I guess this is what I get for trying to remember rules and quote them while at work with out my books around me :blush: This feels like that one time when all i could roll was ones for Abadons Demon weapon :) This brings up another question though...If warptime is at the beggining of PLAYER turn can we use it at beggining of opponents turn? This has really gotten away from the lash question but since this is all true then my respects to Grey Mage for he was correct stating that the previous strategy could not be used. :D

Its quite alright Azulz, Ive made worse calls over the last decade when formulating tactics.

[Schundi]

Possible problem-solving methods:

Inquisitor Lord with pschyhic hood (unlimited renge!)

Inquisitor with null rod and attach to your objective-kemper troop