Land Raider vs Land Raider Crusader

[Rhellion]

Firstly, I am trying to build up my forces for a Planetstrike Campaign. What is my best option if I am only purchasing one kit? Land Raider for tank and bastion busting, but less transport? Or a LRC for transporting 5 Assault Terminators along with Marneus Calgar? I am only purchasing 1 land raider... but I think I have lascannon sponsons in my bits box from a previous LRC from YEARS ago. Should I just get the Crusader and try to get the parts to interchange the pieces? Is it easy to swap parts between the two versions or do I have to magnetize them?

 

I just sold 2 armies, so I am hoping to make a big purchase, but I want to vary it and get the most versatile expansion for my army. My shopping list: Land Raider, 3 Attack Bikes, Marneus Calgar, Terminator Chaplain, Ironclad Dreadnought, Drop Pod, Assault Terminator Squad.

[Hfran Morkai]

I know a lot of people will recommend the LRC but I think the LR has things going for it. Basically do you think your list has enough anti-tank/bastion goodness? If yes then a Crusader if not a standard Land Raider. Both will be able to hold the mentioned termie squad.

 

Also it's really best to magnetise the sponsons of you want to remove them or you'll need something like blu tac because they'll just fall off otherwise.

[Rhellion]

I know a lot of people will recommend the LRC but I think the LR has things going for it. Basically do you think your list has enough anti-tank/bastion goodness? If yes then a Crusader if not a standard Land Raider. Both will be able to hold the mentioned termie squad.

 

Also it's really best to magnetise the sponsons of you want to remove them or you'll need something like blu tac because they'll just fall off otherwise.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=175195

The list in question... for now.

 

I'm not sure I'll magnetise them anyways. The regular Land Raider doesn't have the Assault Launchers.

[DarkGuard]

The Land Raider would arguably be a good choice for taking out bastions, but then so would be LRC with an attached multi-melta.

 

Don't forget the Land Raider Redeemer, although it has the same capacity as a LR, its flamestorm cannons get D6 hits when fired through a fire point in the bastion, and you can still attach a multi-melta to it to blow up bastions if need be. And it has the frag assault launchers.

[Vel'Cona]

I'd like to point out that a single MM (albeit not TL) is probably better for achieving lasting results against armored targets (like bastions) than a single LC, and is probably equal in effectiveness to two. Another factor is that the LR has to move 6" or less to take advantage of its two LC's, but they can be fired at separate targets, which is a bonus. At 12", though, the MM is far superior with x2 pen dice. I wouldn't call the LR a bad choice by any means, but the LRC and LRR have more to offer in the "assault transport" role, and are far better for doling out the wounds against massed defenders. In a defensive role, however, the LR is nice for engaging multiple transports at range, though it'll falter against high armored targets.

 

It all comes down to what you want to do with your LR, though I'll note here that a pair of CombiPreds is probably better than a single generic LR (transport ability excluded), for only slightly higher cost.

[Bannus]

Any Land Raider may be equipped with a multi-melta now:

 

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb150/bannus/P4180040_edited-1-2.jpg

 

See?

[Hfran Morkai]

Any Land Raider may be equipped with a multi-melta now:

 

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb150/bannus/P4180040_edited-1-2.jpg

 

See?

 

I use multis on all mine. I think it's probably the fact that people don't want to stick one on a dedicated tank hunter even though its a good idea for when you get cloes.

[Jezroth]

well it all depends AT fire or AI fire up to you

I prefer LR as if I wanted the equivelant of 6 twin-linked bolters i'd just go a ten man taccy squad with objective holding goodness I don't se the point (other then housing more termi's) in getting a LRC instead of a LR

 

I don't usually use my LR any ways as i prefer to take a pred w lascannons and a vindicator for about the same points (little more expensive) and then just use pods for transport

 

but that is just my opinion

[Rumour Control]

Difficult one this. 2 twin linked lascannons and a multi melta is awsome but then is the crusader with its move 6" and fire all weapons (1 machine spirited of course). I have 2 crusaders and one godhammer just because i need the transport capacity. Its only 5 in the normal land raider, for dark angels that is. From a marine codex point of view id go for a redeemer or crusader as they both have frag assault launchers. The crusader is my personal favourite though.

[Rhellion]

I just placed my order, and instead of getting an Ironclad Dread with a Drop Pod I got a second Land Raider. So now I can use both.

[avatar8481]

Vel'cona is correct, the MM is better than the lascannon at taking out bastions. By a wide margin at melta range and tied at max range. Lascannon's extra shooting range is irrelevant since you'll be so close to the bastion anyway. I'd take the Crusader over the regular in planetstrike...though I can see a case for redeemer to deny the cover from defenses.

[Warp Angel]

FWIW, the twin linked assault cannons have better average chances than twin linked lascannons at glancing/penetrating AV14.

 

Lascannon

Hit = 1 shot * (2/3 chance hit + (2/3 * 1/3) chance reroll) = 2/3 + 2/9 = 6/9 + 2/9 = 8/9 chance of hitting.

Glance = 1/6 chance * 8/9 hits = 8/54 = 4/27

Pen = 1/6 chance + 8/9 hits = 8/54 = 4/27

 

Which totals for an 8/27 chance every time you pull the trigger to achieve an effective hit. (29.6%)

 

Assault Cannon

Hit = 4 shots * (LR odds from above) = 32/9 chance of hitting, or more than three shots hitting on average.

Glance = 1/6 chance of a rend * 1/3 chance of a glance * 32/9 hits = 32/162 = 16/81 chances of a glance.

Pen = 1/6 chance of a rend * 1/3 chance of a pen * 32/9 hits = 32/162 = 16/81 chances of a pen.

 

Which totals for a 32/81 chance every time you pull the trigger to achieve an effective hit with the same distribution of glances vs. pens. (39.5%)

 

Effectively a twin linked assault cannon is 10% more effective than a twin linked lascannon.

 

This fact, added to the multi-melta, plus the additional transport capacity, plus the much greater anti-infantry capability (hurricane bolters), plus the assault launchers providing frag grenades where they are neded, PLUS the ability to be a much better move or fire platform means that:

 

For my playstyle, which is aggressive and doesn't value AV14 bunkers, and seeks to kill the enemy as fast as practical, the Crusader with a MM is far better than a LR or LR + MM, even if you take into account a small difference in cost.

 

I do, however, own both versions.

[Koremu]

Math for a Multi Melta, FWIW;

 

Hit = 2/3

Glance = 4/36th * 2/3 = 8/108

Pen = 26/36 * 2/3 = 52/108

[avatar8481]

don't forget in this analysis that actually glancing or penning is irrelevant, what you care about is doing permanent damage to the target. at which MM are much better, since they have a 50% to destroy on a pen and a 16% chance to destroy on a glance, as opposed to 33% and 0% for a lascannon,

 

Does rending automatically make the hit AP1, or is that just for pathfinders?

 

Rending chance to Pen per TLAC shot:

 

4 dice with a 88% chance to hit so 3.52 hits. 1/6 chance per hit to rend, so .58 rends per shot 1/3 chance of getting the 5-6 you need on the extra rend roll to pen av 14 is .19 penetrating hits per shot, 1/3 chance of destroying the target so a 6.5% per shot of killing an AV14 tank. TWLC has a 3.7% chance of the same result per shot. at Melta range a MM has a 21% chance of the same result.

[DarkGuard]

Does rending automatically make the hit AP1, or is that just for pathfinders?

 

Thats just Eldar Rangers and Pathfinders (although Pathfinders are more likely to get the AP1 shot).

 

Rending works out at AP2, so not as good for taking out tanks than the AP1 shot (of course, you'd still need to rend with your AP1 shot to have a chance.

[Bannus]

... the twin linked assault cannons have better average chances than twin linked lascannons at glancing/penetrating AV14.

Yeah, but those chances take a nose-dive beyond 24". :)

 

One thing you need to consider is:

 

Sphere of Influence.

 

A MkIII can engage anything within 48" - which is a serious chunk of the tabletop regardless of placement. The Crusader has a significantly smaller sphere which can be most troubling if the vehicle gets immobilized.

[Hellios]

... the twin linked assault cannons have better average chances than twin linked lascannons at glancing/penetrating AV14.

Yeah, but those chances take a nose-dive beyond 24". :D

 

One thing you need to consider is:

 

Sphere of Influence.

 

A MkIII can engage anything within 48" - which is a serious chunk of the tabletop regardless of placement. The Crusader has a significantly smaller sphere which can be most troubling if the vehicle gets immobilized.

 

If your crusader didn't make it to the drop-off point your doing it wrong XD... J/K

 

On that note I wouldn't bother taking a tank to bunker bust.... how about assault squads with meltabombs you deepstrike (don't scatter or at least not much or place yourself so that if you scatter you arrive somewhere useful :o assault bastion... hit it automatically with 10 meltabombs giggle and run. Next turn presuming the enemy haven't gone oh hell assault marines in my face and shot them (sparing other units in your army allowing them to do what they do) you can then charge....

 

Land Raider = Mobile bunker with fire support.

 

LRC = Mobile bunker like assault craft

 

LRR = Something pyromaniacs made which is not as good at doing either of the above job as others although it can be deadly up close and good if your expecting enemy units to be hiding in cover?

 

LRP = dakka dakka goodness (especially with grey knights with psycannon rounds on it)

 

LRH = Whirlwind but harder to kill

 

LRS = Make a model and rule set for it forgeworld!!!!!!!!!!!

[avatar8481]

considering that 100% of tables are 48 inches across, and the LRC is charging into the middle of the table I don't think that only being able to shoot 24' is a major hindrance. The reality is you're not using the AC to shoot at tanks anyway, you're using the MM, in which case you're trying to get even closer. marines are a mid-range army now, not a long distance gunline.

[Hfran Morkai]

considering that 100% of tables are 48 inches across, and the LRC is charging into the middle of the table I don't think that only being able to shoot 24' is a major hindrance. The reality is you're not using the AC to shoot at tanks anyway, you're using the MM, in which case you're trying to get even closer. marines are a mid-range army now, not a long distance gunline.

 

Not true my friend. The majority of tables are 6 by 4 but I regularly play on 3 foot square table.

[Warp Angel]

Not true my friend. The majority of tables are 6 by 4 but I regularly play on 3 foot square table.

 

That dramatically changes the balance of many codecies. I know a large number of Tyranid players that would be drooling if that were the standard table size. Most Tau players would cry.