Beserk Charge vs Furious Charge

[Torin]

Good day brothers,

 

I have been thinking about this for quite some time. Which one do you think is better. Beserk or furious. Beserk can be match together with counter charge... thus gaining 2 attack. What about furious.. what do you gain from it, beside the +1 I & +1 S.

[Forseti]

IMO they're both good, though Berserk charge does seem more fitting for our Blood Claws. Which is better varies with the enemy, anything under I3 berserk is better, anything I4 I'd rather furious, you'll have less of a chance of wiping out the unit in 1 turn, but will have a lot fewer attacks coming back at you.

[Captain Talon]

As a wolf player I'd go with tradition and say keep BC. Put the wolves in cover and they go simo....

[OnlyInDeath]

If you do the math hammer on i think a 15 man unit, you end up with something like 1-2 more wounds with BC over FC, but with FC you end up striking first....much better trade off IMO. I'm eager to get furious charge.

[Grey Mage]

Id rather have the Beserker charge for three reasons:

 

1) its unique, and I like keeping variety in the game. Universal rules are cool, but they shouldnt always be the default.

2) I dont see bloodclaws being faster and stronger than say... wolf gaurd. I see them being reckless. Beserker charge better portrays this.

3) I like the oppurtunity to potentially cause more wounds. The math may side with furious charge, but the potential is always greater with beserker... and its fun to play the odds sometimes.

[Hfran Morkai]

Id rather have the Beserker charge for three reasons:

 

1) its unique, and I like keeping variety in the game. Universal rules are cool, but they shouldnt always be the default.

2) I dont see bloodclaws being faster and stronger than say... wolf gaurd. I see them being reckless. Beserker charge better portrays this.

3) I like the oppurtunity to potentially cause more wounds. The math may side with furious charge, but the potential is always greater with beserker... and its fun to play the odds sometimes.

 

Hear, hear!

 

We want to maintain uniqueness. It's always fun playing an opponent thats never played wolves and hitting them with an obscene amount of attacks that hit even a SM Captain on a 4+.

[Torin]

well i like the uniqueness of BC coz you still get the 2A when counter charging. By anychance in any of the books that say FC applies when counter charging.

[Coppella]

Since Space wolves have the old school counter attack rule, I'm not sure how that would work. I know that units with FC don't get the bonus when they get charged.

[Hellios]

Since Space wolves have the old school counter attack rule, I'm not sure how that would work. I know that units with FC don't get the bonus when they get charged.

 

No Space Wolves now use the USR counter-attack rule as all old rules that have now been made universal in the BBB follow the BBB regardless of whats in the codex with the exception of Dark Eldar who still use their version of Feel no Pain.

 

I go with BC because all this streamlining is making armies less interesting than they were in the old editions :'( also if a special character gives it to the unit he joins... you can make a kickass unit... more kickass....

[Wolf Guard Nostromo]

Im plumbing for the gaming effectiveness of furious charge - strength boost will allow real damage to AV14 with power fists and I5 cannot be underestimated.

 

If it was only about fluff, I'd love to keep bezerk charge, and I agree that furious doesn't fit the profile that well (it doesn't make them faster than anyone else, as GM says, does it?), but the competitive gamer in me thinks furious charge will be more effective in certain situations.

[Hotspur]

I really hope we keep our BC. To me, along with some others here, it just seems more befitting a Space Wolf than the regular FC.

 

And besides, don't blood claws strike simultaneously anyhow b/c they're equipped w/ frags? If that's the case, then it's berserk charge all the way! And even if it's not the case, you're still going to be looking at a lot of attacks on a charge from a squad of 'claws.

 

I guess they both have their purposes, but I prefer BC over FC any day of the week.

[Valerian]

I really hope we keep our BC. To me, along with some others here, it just seems more befitting a Space Wolf than the regular FC.

 

And besides, don't blood claws strike simultaneously anyhow b/c they're equipped w/ frags? If that's the case, then it's berserk charge all the way! And even if it's not the case, you're still going to be looking at a lot of attacks on a charge from a squad of 'claws.

 

Hotspur,

 

Frag Grenades just means that they attack at Initiative when charging into/through difficult terrain. Thus, they always attack at Initiative 4, unless they've got a Power Fist, and with Furious Charge and Frag Grenades they would attack at Initiative 5.

 

I'm somewhat ambivilant about which would be better. There are advantages to both, and I do like the "character" of Berzerk Charge, and think that it probably is a better fit. Furious Charge, however, would be helpful in getting to attack first against most opponents (rather than simultaneous against other Marines). This means less return attacks from the enemy and greater durability for the Pack. Although the extra attacks from Berzerk Charge means a greater kill potential, given lucky dice rolls, the higher Strength from Furious Charge means easier rolls to Wound overall, which makes the two come out about even.

 

So, as stated earlier, I'll be happy with either special rule,

 

Valerian

[Hotspur]

Frag Grenades just means that they attack at Initiative when charging into/through difficult terrain. Thus, they always attack at Initiative 4, unless they've got a Power Fist, and with Furious Charge and Frag Grenades they would attack at Initiative 5.

 

I'm somewhat ambivilant about which would be better. There are advantages to both, and I do like the "character" of Berzerk Charge, and think that it probably is a better fit. Furious Charge, however, would be helpful in getting to attack first against most opponents (rather than simultaneous against other Marines). This means less return attacks from the enemy and greater durability for the Pack. Although the extra attacks from Berzerk Charge means a greater kill potential, given lucky dice rolls, the higher Strength from Furious Charge means easier rolls to Wound overall, which makes the two come out about even.

 

So, as stated earlier, I'll be happy with either special rule,

 

Valerian

 

Thanks for the clarification on the frags, Val.

 

As far as FC goes, I guess it would be pretty good; I just hadn't thought about it in that respect. I've just gotten used to having four attacks on a charge, and, like I said before, I really like that. After reading you post, though, I would be OK w/ the FC. :o

 

*Raises a stein*

[Bearboy]

How about both?

 

Because that would be awesome :P

 

But how much will a blood claw with both cost? Probably 16/17 ish.

[Hfran Morkai]

How about both?

 

Because that would be awesome :P

 

But how much will a blood claw with both cost? Probably 16/17 ish.

Probably even more than that!

[Rezil]

Probably a lot more considering what your doing is essentially creating an over the top Khorne Beserker. Which are what, 20 odd points each?

 

Speaking of which I decided to test this out a bit with a friend of mine who plays chaos and it worked out like this, A 10 man squad of KB's Vs a 10 man squad of BC's. If you charge first with the Beserkers, they pretty much always win the combat due to the furious charge rule, if the BC's charge first it became a fairly even match with the BC's winning slightly more combats than the KB's. However giving the BC's the furious charge rule and having them charge first was more effective than the KB's charge most of the time due to the amount of power weapons were allowed.

 

Hence I would prefer to have my BC's with furious charge. :)

 

To me they both seem to fit the fluff and if anything I would of thought KB's would have the Beserk charge rule being probably more insane than BC's.

[jester262]

What I haven't seen brought up yet in this conversation is that according to the rumors bloodclaws will be going from WS 3 to 4. How much will that effect the outcome if that is factored into the equasion?

[Hfran Morkai]

What I haven't seen brought up yet in this conversation is that according to the rumors bloodclaws will be going from WS 3 to 4. How much will that effect the outcome if that is factored into the equasion?

 

I can't see them boosting them to WS4. I could have seen it with the old Guard dex when you could take a doctrine increasing WS representing units brought up on death worlds and stuff but considering that the Wolves are recruits I think they should stay at WS3, sure they get hit easier by tacs and stuff but they still hit a SM captain on a 4+ I believe.

 

Because we have to remember that even a SM initiate is still incredibly deadly and look at scouts. They're what 13 points? Ours are 14 with power armour and bezerk charge. So there would be a major points change.

[Commissar Volker]

I'd put mony on them having FC. It means there are fewer rules for the little children to understand, and unfortunately that is who GW are aiming at now.

 

Ah, I remember when almost all the products had a "16 or over" sticker on them, I felt cool buying them when I was 13 and under age. Going into GW when it was filled with metallers and bikers, the whole shop smelling of weed and sweat.

[Lord Rao]

I'd put mony on them having FC. It means there are fewer rules for the little children to understand, and unfortunately that is who GW are aiming at now.

 

Ah, I remember when almost all the products had a "16 or over" sticker on them, I felt cool buying them when I was 13 and under age. Going into GW when it was filled with metallers and bikers, the whole shop smelling of weed and sweat.

 

Ah yes, the sweat smell of victory. ^_^

I remember those days!

 

Buying "16 or over" stuff is only cool for kids (those who are 15 or under), which you seem to suggest you were when you bought that stuff, yet it's also the same group you seem to despise GW moving towards right now. That doesn't make much sense to me.

 

While I don't necessarily enjoy the fact that GW has become more and more glossy, with decreasing opportunities for the originality of hobbyists and converters (no more separate parts? - WTH???), I for one would love to be done with all those little, arcane, badly described army-specific "special" rules and exceptions to other existing (or no longer existing) rules. Much better to have everything put in a standard format that is easily accessible to everyone who plays the game - i.e. everyone who buys the core rulebook. I believe it's the single most user friendly move GW has made in their game design in the past 7 or 8 years. The phenomenon where a game needs a core rulebook AND several army-specific rulebooks, which are all changed at different times, is the Achilles' Heel in two out of three of GW's core game systems, if you ask me.

Yes, standardisation means we lose our own beloved lil ruleys, but if it means I never have to buy/copy/read another codex of an army I don't own or play against often just because I have to know that special rule, I'm a very happy gamer. Also, I have better things to do than remember little special rules, or even remembering which rules in what codices differ from the USRs. I play a TON of different games, and simply cba to remember all this non-standard stuff for just ONE of the (GW) games I play. Ever.

 

Most players seem to agree that not having Stern/Vanguard in many of the chapter-specific lists (BT, DA, BA) really sucks, which is more or less the same issue.

 

As an aside: I fully expect the Feel No Pain for Grotesques to be standardised when (if?) the DE ever get their new dex (though the consensus seems to be now that Grots will be removed entirely), as I do the True Grit to be severely rewritten in our new Wolf dex - that was probably the worst special rule I've ever seen. It makes no sense on any model, really, when you look at the game mechanics (when you got that nonsense about having more attacks on the defence than on the offence when wearing a certain type of wolf cape or whatever - tsssk) ; not on Grey Hunters, not on Grey Knights, nor on anything else. Yes, it's nice to have a dude hold both an axe and a bolter in just two hands, but come on, that rule wording was atrocious, and has become only worse in subsequent editions of the rules.

 

Sorry if I seem to rant, but I feel very strongly towards the advent of these USR, an fervently hope that they will indeed become Universal, as their name implies.

 

 

LR

[wookie2533]

why not both ;)

[muzzyman1981]

Well for our Blood Claws I prefer the Beserk Charge for the simple fact they need alot of attacks to hit with their lower WS. If they get their upgrade that some have been hoping for then Furious Charge would be better I think.

[Kaan]

I would not expect to have Berserk Charge in the new codex. GW is trying to streamline the ruleset and Furious Charge conveys a similar (not identical) benefit. I would expect blood claws to go to WS 4, it would make sense. They forgo a bit of shooting to get into Hand to Hand and that coupled with Furious Charge would make them very potent on the initial charge.

[wolf2.3]

What agout the rumour that our WP's are getting liturgies of battle or something like it. If thats true then i would go for BC. Maybe the new dex will give us a choice as to whice one we can use? :)

[Valerian]

Well for our Blood Claws I prefer the Beserk Charge for the simple fact they need alot of attacks to hit with their lower WS.

 

It actually makes no difference, most of the time, when they attack. When attacking a WS 4 model (like an Ork, Necron, or another Marine), Blood Claws need to roll a 4 to hit regardless of whether they are WS3 or WS4.

 

Valerian