Beserk Charge vs Furious Charge

[JCarter]

Bear in mind that FC makes a very considerable difference when the BCs are receiving a charge, given the prevalence of frags or their equivalent. When the charging party has more strength and a higher initiative, BCs suffer a lot of casualties before they even strike, especially when there are no armor saves against whatever weapons are being used. There are also a number of units out there that get as many or more attacks as a BC with Berserk Charge. BCs don't impress the enemy when they are dead before they can strike.

[Jaarl Stormfang]

I think furious charge is pretty fluffy. I understand the argument saying it reflects their recklessness better but I disagree.

 

If you get really angry you hit things really really hard. Adrenaline pumps your (genetically super enhanced) limbs to strike faster and harder. Not necessarily with much skill or in such a manner that you're balanced to attack again - so not a bonus to WS or attacks.

 

Meanwhile, the cunning wolf guard, while not flying into a rage and hitting things quite as hard, is far more skilled, lands his blows more accurately, is more balanced and plans them so he attacks more times between the blood claws screaming, angry blows.

 

Think of boxing. It takes technique and experience to punch lots in a short space of time. It takes anger to hit very hard.

[Wolf Guard Nostromo]

Well for our Blood Claws I prefer the Beserk Charge for the simple fact they need alot of attacks to hit with their lower WS.

 

It actually makes no difference, most of the time, when they attack. When attacking a WS 4 model (like an Ork, Necron, or another Marine), Blood Claws need to roll a 4 to hit regardless of whether they are WS3 or WS4.

 

Valerian

Ain't that the truth - It just doesn't seem to make much difference when they attack but makes it easier for others to hit them! Thats why I think the I5 of furious charge would be so beneficial.

 

Stormfang: I see what you're getting at, but I just don't see it making them faster than a warrior who should be able to best them e.g. a wolf guard. Stronger, maybe, but not faster. I see it more about them attacking everything that moves with little thought for defence, and thus more an attack bonus than to speed and strength.

[Demogerg]

I prefer BC over FC, without a doubt, my most frequent opponent is orks, so the biggest benefit of FC (+1I) does nothing to help me in my local metagame. Also, with the current build of blood claws available, being able to swing with 9 powerfist attacks on the charge is just plain scarey, changing that to 6 S9 powerfist attacks does not seem appealing.

 

Changing to FC also eliminates my desire to be charged by my opponent (when they are I4 or greater without frag grenades, and I am in cover)

This actually makes sense fluff wise, and they can remove the rule where blood claws have to assault if possible, because with FC there is no benefit to Being charged over charging in.

 

Blood Claws need to be WS 4, simply because Space Wolves are selected from the best warriors of a death world, and in the ancient 2nd edition codex they were even WS 5, so the 3rd edition hackjob of dropping them to WS3 was a joke, and one of the (many) reasons why I quit the game many years ago.

[Jonas Stromclaw]

I'd take BC over FC anyday, but that's because my local game has tau, orks, and necrons, all at initiative 2. For those brothers of mine who face chaos marines and agile eldar, I understand the need for initiative 5. My personal bet is that they switch us to FC just 'cause its a universal rule and is a little more fair to low initiative guys. I know my ork buddy is praying for it, he hates his massive ork squads getting torn in half before they even strike.

[Quillen]

Look it's like this. They are nerfing this edition. So we will take a hit. And most likely they will stick us with Ferocious Charge even thou it makes no sence.

 

Look at Blood Angels. Ok, they are fighting a blood lust and barely keeping it under control. So they rush in and swing to the high heavens and what not.

 

Now think about life on fenris. These guys already proved their prowess in Melee Combat. Which is not decided by reckless head long rushes. They are melee warriors from the first days they are trained. Some mindless group running into them would be suddenly shocked to see these guys know what they are doing and drop a bunch of thier friends before you know what is going on. They are young thou, and they look more for the offence over defence. So they are easier hit, but hit back more often. Which is why I like Beserker charge. WS 3 they still swing good, and 2 attacks ont he charge because they now how to wade in and take it to you. Add in the new COunter Charge and they are perfect as they are.

 

These guys are not Khorn beserkers who have thrown away everything they have and only have a pointless death and their souls being destroyed to look forward too. They are not Blood Angels barely in control of them selves as their radiated DNA frazels and they loose their sanity over the lose of their Primarch.

 

These are young warriors whom know their way around a weapon and how to fight in melee. So why change something that gives them a cool feel no one else had?

 

As to why they made them WS3 in 3rd was to make the game a little more balanced. Magic the Gathering was pwning GW and more people where going over to it. It was competative and touries were every where. Yet being GW they could never stay away from the codex creap. It's how they make the mindless kids they target buy the next codex. Magic simply makes playing with the cards you have illegal. Well GW could not do that. So we have Codex creep and flavors of the year. Since it takes a year to see the next codex for an army.

[skipp]

You also have to factor in the extra str of furious charge as well. You get less attacks but the one's you do get wound easier. Also for people who play in a marine heavy area like me FC allowing me to strike first is huge so I like the FC better.

 

If we get the rumored wolf priest I just cant wait to see 15 blood claws + priest charging out of a crusader. Thats some serious hurt.

[Rezil]

Look it's like this. They are nerfing this edition. So we will take a hit. And most likely they will stick us with Ferocious Charge even thou it makes no sence.

 

Look at Blood Angels. Ok, they are fighting a blood lust and barely keeping it under control. So they rush in and swing to the high heavens and what not.

 

Now think about life on fenris. These guys already proved their prowess in Melee Combat. Which is not decided by reckless head long rushes. They are melee warriors from the first days they are trained. Some mindless group running into them would be suddenly shocked to see these guys know what they are doing and drop a bunch of thier friends before you know what is going on. They are young thou, and they look more for the offence over defence. So they are easier hit, but hit back more often. Which is why I like Beserker charge. WS 3 they still swing good, and 2 attacks ont he charge because they now how to wade in and take it to you. Add in the new COunter Charge and they are perfect as they are.

 

These guys are not Khorn beserkers who have thrown away everything they have and only have a pointless death and their souls being destroyed to look forward too. They are not Blood Angels barely in control of them selves as their radiated DNA frazels and they loose their sanity over the lose of their Primarch.

 

These are young warriors whom know their way around a weapon and how to fight in melee. So why change something that gives them a cool feel no one else had?

 

As to why they made them WS3 in 3rd was to make the game a little more balanced. Magic the Gathering was pwning GW and more people where going over to it. It was competative and touries were every where. Yet being GW they could never stay away from the codex creap. It's how they make the mindless kids they target buy the next codex. Magic simply makes playing with the cards you have illegal. Well GW could not do that. So we have Codex creep and flavors of the year. Since it takes a year to see the next codex for an army.

 

 

Whilst I agree with you in some respects I think Ferocious charge does make sense and that whilst they are born to combat and know what they are doing, like the angels and Beserker's they also have something that makes them go a bit mental... The wulfen within them as it is always struggling to break free and as young initiates they have yet to master it and so more often than not like Berserker's and Death Company they launch themselves at the enemy in one ferocious charge which I'm guessing would surprise the enemy and so give them the initiative and with the anger etc. coursing through them it may cause them to put more weight in to their blows.

 

Now I think these days WS 4 would be more balanced but also as you have said that they have been fighting with weapons since they were children I think that this should be reflected as WS 4 in their profile. Yes they are recruits but they have already been fighting for their entire lives. No not against space marines but then what's the difference? Yes space marines are stronger and faster but once they have been inducted to be blood claws, they will have the same speed and strength + the knowledge of fighting from their human lives (Which considering they don't use ranged weapons a BS of 3 sounds reasonable).

 

Ultimately I think that if we were to have Beserk charge then models such as Khorne Beserker's should have this rule rather than furious charge as they are pretty much doing the same thing so it makes no sense to have a different rule it just matters on which rule GW prefers and they have gone with FC which is just as fluffy as Berserk Charge in my opinion.

[Florida Gator]

What i think most of you forget is that even though its a month and a half from now, the new codex is just round the corner. IMO they wont make radical changes, just update it since its gone by a whole edition without a new codex, however they could change EVERYTHING. Who knows. What i do know is they said this codex is making it even LESS smurfy than before. This could be for the better or the worse. But ill still buy one either way so i can actually have a BOOK with the rules instead of the german version i printed off of GW lol :P (i dont speak german)

[KiltedMarine]

While I don't necessarily enjoy the fact that GW has become more and more glossy, with decreasing opportunities for the originality of hobbyists and converters (no more separate parts? - WTH???), I for one would love to be done with all those little, arcane, badly described army-specific "special" rules and exceptions to other existing (or no longer existing) rules. Much better to have everything put in a standard format that is easily accessible to everyone who plays the game - i.e. everyone who buys the core rulebook....

 

...Sorry if I seem to rant, but I feel very strongly towards the advent of these USR, an fervently hope that they will indeed become Universal, as their name implies.

 

:P QFT and FTW. Have an ale on me, brother. I agree wholeheartedly in limiting the number of bizarre "rules only I know." The arcane manner in which editorial decisions got made previously (and occasionally still do) led to a byzantine structure of RAW disparities between baseline similar armies,and could be frustrating to deal with. When I was a blueshirt, I got sick of dealing with rules arguments rooted in the difference of two words of phrasing between two codices describing a rule clearly intended to work the same way. It's part of why I tend to be an RAI partisan rather than RAW.

 

Tying this back to the actual point of the thread, I will only very slightly miss Berserk Charge if we lose it. FC is as good a rule, as or slightly more powerful depending on context, and as a USR I won't have to shout myself blue in the face to get a tournament opponent to understand it.

[Spacefrisian]

Why shout to make youre opponent understand you could let him read the rule for himself.

[Grey Mage]

Why shout to make youre opponent understand you could let him read the rule for himself.

You make the assumption that your opponent can read.

 

Fail.

[rahl02]

Now on my comment don't get me wrong I've been playing my wolves since the beginning of 3rd when the codex first came out.

 

But what would amuse me to no end would be to see them keep beserk charge but make it not work on the counter charge. So you would get 3-4 attacks on the charge but only get 2 on the counter attack. That way people like myself don't use the claws as a shield in cover waiting for the enemy to charge them, and use them more of a charge / counter charge unit.

 

Though it doesn't matter what they give they'll still be a good unit.

[KiltedMarine]

You make the assumption that your opponent can read.

 

This is much less funny than it would be were it not true... I've shown them the book, and had them read the rule, and still had to raise my voice to them when they've argued that it's a ;) rule and "shouldn't" work that way, no matter what the book says.

 

...and the opponent I'm thinking of was older than I am, which just made it more pathetic. (I'm 34, and was 30 at the time).

 

I'll be OK with Furious Charge as a change just to never have that encounter repeated.

[Grey Mage]

You make the assumption that your opponent can read.

 

This is much less funny than it would be were it not true... I've shown them the book, and had them read the rule, and still had to raise my voice to them when they've argued that it's a :o rule and "shouldn't" work that way, no matter what the book says.

 

...and the opponent I'm thinking of was older than I am, which just made it more pathetic. (I'm 34, and was 30 at the time).

 

I'll be OK with Furious Charge as a change just to never have that encounter repeated.

While I was trying to be upbeat about it I wasnt really joking....