5 plasma cannons on a tank noooo

[Justicar Valius]

Now there is an imperial guard tank that has a turret with which is a heavy 3 plasma cannon!

Coupled with the ability to take plasma cannon sponsons it spells doom for terminators not in land raiders. SO some good placement could mean a few turns of death.

 

Anything the DH have that can hit it well without fear of the lascannon squads everywhere? please say...

[Warp Angel]

It gets worse.

 

You can upgrade the tank to be Knight Commander Pask, who provides Crack Shot (ignoring cover), a better BS (reducing scatter), and if using Crack Shot can reroll to wound monstrous creatures and gets +1 to the AP roll, making it effectively S8 when going after vehicles.

 

It's about 300 points, but it's almost guaranteed to kill that much of your toughest stuff in the first two turns.

 

Don't forget that it's a demolisher pattern Russ, which means 14/13/11 armor values. making it a tough nut to crack. Oh, and it's got a variety of hull weapon options on top of the plasma cannons too!

 

But it's exactly the kind of thing that I field a single drop pod in my army, loaded with an Ironclad Dreadnaught. :) AND that despite the number of templates it can fling across the table, it still has to target a single unit.

 

Skillful use of reserves (knowing when and what, based on your list and playstyle) to keep in reserves until you've dealt with it will probably help you out. Never forget that it's SLOW, and is relatively easy to chase down, and is still vulnerable to many of the units that are typically used to outflank or deep strike.

[number6]

The only answer we have is staying embarked in our land raiders. Sadly, 5th edition and the new codexes are practically dictating to us DH gamers what our army build must be.

 

We require 2 land raiders in every list. I don't see any way around it in the modern environment. Before the new IG, you could still possibly get away with a decent footslogging force, one anchored by dreads.

 

The new IG has sealed the fate of that kind of list. Troops pretty much must be melta ISTs in Rhinos, and we require a pair of land raiders -- crusaders preferably -- to carry our GKTs ... or maybe a single PAGK unit.

 

More competitive still would probably be a DH list that takes a healthy platoon or two of the new IG.

[Justicar Valius]

But it's exactly the kind of thing that I field a single drop pod in my army, loaded with an Ironclad Dreadnaught. :D AND that despite the number of templates it can fling across the table, it still has to target a single unit.

 

Well i am a DH player not SM... so i want to keep my grey knights not take SM... yeh...

 

AND on the single target thing i'm sure it can sit far back and target a unit turn per turn

[revnow]

Really the only answer is to start playing 5th Edition. I don't mean this in an offensive way, just that footslogging armies aren't viable under the 5th Edition rules. If you mechanize your forces that 300+ pt. monstrosity suddenly becomes worse than a 75 point Hydra.

 

You need to ignore it, or at least pretend to do so until you can get a couple of melta guns in range and just pop it. The ease with which it goes down will usually put you opponent off their game for a couple of turns, which is all that you need to pull out a victory. People hate having their hammer units wiped out, and it's a lot easier when that unit is a vehicle instead of a massive multi wound Seer Council, Biker squad, GM+retinue. Destroying a 300 point tank with 120 pts worth of ISTs or veterans in a single turn of off hand melta fire can really throw a number of players off their psychological game. They'll play frustrated and unfocused.

[Warp Angel]

My apologies... I didn't pay close attention to the forum this was posted in.

 

The Plasma Overload tank is a serious problem for pure inquisition and especially pure GK. You lack the tools for closing quickly with dreadnaughts and the army's weaknesses (by design) are enemy armor and small model count.

 

That "one unit a turn" killing capability is a ton of your total combat capability.

 

Meltagun armed IST in rhinos - ones that never get out of them if they don't have to - make a lot of sense for tank hunting. While the PO tank can't kill both rhinos in one turn, it's certain that if the enemy views them as a priority threat, the rest of their army can pile on, making it relatively poor odds that they'll get to the tank.

 

The Shrouding is of limited, but still some utility for GKs.

 

I think I have to agree that without LR in the list to close the distance, a pure =I= army is in trouble.

 

I'm gonna go home and sleep on this one, but I'm not sure I'm going to come up with any good options other than LRs in multiples.

[Eddie Orlock]

You know, with proper unit dispersal, you should be able to make it mathematically impossible for the tank to hit more than two models under a marker, and this is with ideal scatter. The blast marker rules require that the hole is over a figure, any accurate shot gets one man at best. So, assuming the Guard player is lucky, and lands an above average volley of six hits, and this beats the curve a little on a dispersed unit, modally he'll likely get about five wounds. If you're playing properly against this tank, you should be getting 4+ cover from something, so, you can expect to lose about three guys.

 

It'll take half the match for such a 'hammer' unit to deplete a properly deployed 'standard' eight man grey knight squad.

 

The performance can be improved with aggressive play of tank shock, but this carries the hazard of either exposing a vulnerable chimera, or hell hound variant to missed scatter and friendly fire, and retribution by your nearby units. This brings me to what you really should be concerned with, Poison Gas spewing fast attack tanks, an all in one squad bunching and slaying potential.

 

Blasts have been improved in this edition, but they still leave much to be desired.

[Apogee]

Remember that the plasma tank cannot pop LRs any day of the week. Just drive on up. Other threats will be downplayed - those tanks are expensive, and you can only take so many lascannons.

[Dezartfox]

I played against it.. with my Deathwing :lol:

 

It murdered 4 of the squad, but the last one ran up to up and poked its chainfist in it's hull :)

[Thaelion Hexis]

In my gaming group only one guy has some IG, and only a small army as Orks are his focus.

 

This sounds like a nasty piece of work, putting my Dark Eldar Ravager to shame, which is not right.

[Lord_Zyplon]

...Knight Commander Pask, who provides Crack Shot (ignoring cover)...

 

Nope. Crack Shot only provides +1 to the penetration roll / reroll to wound against MCs.

 

From a Guard perspective, it's usually inefficient to actually buy a plasma-death machine. Executioner, Plasma sponsons, and Pask could instead buy ton of other units. If I was going to tailor a list against MEQs, I'd rather take a pair of barebones Russ Battle Tanks that that monster. A case could be made for Deathwing-style lists (for the AP2), but for only a few points more, I'd rather take a pair of Demolishers.

 

As others have said, it's still only one tank. As others have said, it's alot of eggs that can be easily neutralized by proper use of cover and cheap melta units - bread and butter for a water-style army updated for 5th.

[avatar8481]

Really the only answer is to start playing 5th Edition. I don't mean this in an offensive way, just that footslogging armies aren't viable under the 5th Edition rules. If you mechanize your forces that 300+ pt. monstrosity suddenly becomes worse than a 75 point Hydra.

 

This.

 

The list somebody described above of chimera ISTs with melta and LRs with GKT or even just PAGK is the best build at the moment. 5th makes it punishing to not be in transports, and since IG is one of the first best 5th edition codexi you're really starting to see that now. Of course, some people in someplaces have been saying this for a while. It was the changes to the vehicle damage tables that really make the difference as far as I can tell.

 

Footslogging is dead, and if your footslogging list worked you got lucky against another player still stuck in 4th edition mindset.

[Justicar Valius]

dont worry i played him again and blew it up like 3rd turn and its scatter was horrible. the lascannony death he was fielding happened to be rolling obscenely well and i managed to slaughter the army. I obviously had rejected my rituals of offerings to the dice gods :lol: oh well but i think they may still be a danger in apocylpse... the thing is i hadn't been waiting patiently enough to make him come to me... must learn to play water better :D

[ArmouredWing]

Really the only answer is to start playing 5th Edition. I don't mean this in an offensive way, just that footslogging armies aren't viable under the 5th Edition rules. If you mechanize your forces that 300+ pt. monstrosity suddenly becomes worse than a 75 point Hydra.

Footslogging is dead, and if your footslogging list worked you got lucky against another player still stuck in 4th edition mindset.

Purely and simply utter, UTTER rubbish!!!

 

The problem with this point of view is that it follows the rest of the flock and doesn't give consideration to what is possible when thinking 'outside of the box' (corporate BS i know but it makes the point).

 

You see the thing is that you're talking about mechanisation when the top lists at the moment tend to be horde/infantry based. The big problem is that transports don't offer enough resistance against anti armour weapons and so offer up easy KP's to your opponent and a lot of them. The other thing that transports do is limits the unit size of your squads, maybe not an issue with GK's but with sisters I've found it to be prohibitive to say the least.

 

As for infantry 5th ed has improved their abilities considerably but the nay sayers out there will discount 'run' and 'going to ground' out of hand because it doesn't fit into their philosophy. Don't get me wrong, I've fielded both mec lists and footslogger lists and, yes, mec is easier to handle but it comes at a cost. Footsloggers on the other hand are harder to make perform but when you've got a grasp on what makes them tick it's worth the journey.

[Warp Angel]

...Knight Commander Pask, who provides Crack Shot (ignoring cover)...

 

Nope. Crack Shot only provides +1 to the penetration roll / reroll to wound against MCs.

 

From a Guard perspective, it's usually inefficient to actually buy a plasma-death machine. Executioner, Plasma sponsons, and Pask could instead buy ton of other units. If I was going to tailor a list against MEQs, I'd rather take a pair of barebones Russ Battle Tanks that that monster. A case could be made for Deathwing-style lists (for the AP2), but for only a few points more, I'd rather take a pair of Demolishers.

 

As others have said, it's still only one tank. As others have said, it's alot of eggs that can be easily neutralized by proper use of cover and cheap melta units - bread and butter for a water-style army updated for 5th.

 

Pask's special ability allows him to ignore cover under the conditions he can use crack shot.

[Eddie Orlock]

Pask's special ability allows him to ignore cover under the conditions he can use crack shot.

Crack Shot: Provided Pask's Leman Russ remained stationary during the Movement phase, all shots made by Pask's Leman Russ benefit from the Crack Shot rule.

 

If using the Crack Shot rule when firing against a vehicle, all shots add +1 to any armour penetration rolls.

 

If using the Crack Shot rule when firing at a monstrous creature, any hits that failed to wound may be re-rolled.

That's it, that's all, there ain't no more. If you, or some one you know, has been using Pask to ignore cover, they've simple been indulging in wishful thinking and cheating.

 

Versions of Crack Shot in the Eldar codex allows the shooter to ignore cover, but that is a foul xeno technique, not a glorious guard one, and we've left the era of common text between codices behind.

[Terminatorinhell]

What a sick tank you're gonna have to dodge it until you can get close enough to pop it. For me this puppy gives good reason to start an IG army....

[number6]

Don't get me wrong, I've fielded both mec lists and footslogger lists and, yes, mec is easier to handle but it comes at a cost. Footsloggers on the other hand are harder to make perform but when you've got a grasp on what makes them tick it's worth the journey.

Hmm. We may have to agree to disagree on this one, AW. :) Played by equally competent generals, I would pick a strong mech build over a strong infantry build every time. I think the 5th edition rules-set really supports this. For example, I bet a fully mech'd Sisters list would trounce most infantry Sisters lists. I believe this would be the case because the mech list would have the ability to pick and choose its battles while the infantry Sisters list would not.

 

Infantry lists depend on not getting shot off the table.

Mech lists depend on defining the fight in the most favorable terms for the mech army.

 

The 2nd is a much stronger proposition. If nothing else, it puts the player in control of his destiny in the way an infantry list cannot.

[Warp Angel]

Pask's special ability allows him to ignore cover under the conditions he can use crack shot.

Crack Shot: Provided Pask's Leman Russ remained stationary during the Movement phase, all shots made by Pask's Leman Russ benefit from the Crack Shot rule.

 

If using the Crack Shot rule when firing against a vehicle, all shots add +1 to any armour penetration rolls.

 

If using the Crack Shot rule when firing at a monstrous creature, any hits that failed to wound may be re-rolled.

That's it, that's all, there ain't no more. If you, or some one you know, has been using Pask to ignore cover, they've simple been indulging in wishful thinking and cheating.

 

Versions of Crack Shot in the Eldar codex allows the shooter to ignore cover, but that is a foul xeno technique, not a glorious guard one, and we've left the era of common text between codices behind.

 

Does the BRB have Crack Shot then? I'm pretty sure that the conclusion our group came to with just the Guard Codex and the BRB was that Pask ignores cover.

[revnow]

Purely and simply utter, UTTER rubbish!!!

 

The problem with this point of view is that it follows the rest of the flock and doesn't give consideration to what is possible when thinking 'outside of the box' (corporate BS i know but it makes the point).

 

You see the thing is that you're talking about mechanisation when the top lists at the moment tend to be horde/infantry based. The big problem is that transports don't offer enough resistance against anti armour weapons and so offer up easy KP's to your opponent and a lot of them. The other thing that transports do is limits the unit size of your squads, maybe not an issue with GK's but with sisters I've found it to be prohibitive to say the least.

 

As for infantry 5th ed has improved their abilities considerably but the nay sayers out there will discount 'run' and 'going to ground' out of hand because it doesn't fit into their philosophy. Don't get me wrong, I've fielded both mec lists and footslogger lists and, yes, mec is easier to handle but it comes at a cost. Footsloggers on the other hand are harder to make perform but when you've got a grasp on what makes them tick it's worth the journey.

 

I think this thread is an elegant enough proof as to why this is incorrect. Mech lists have consistently outcompeted more traditional infantry builds since 5th Edition has come out. Even tooled out to take advantage of all of 5th Edition's rules changes (run, meltas, flamers, go to ground etc...) a 5th Edition infantry list just looks like an infantry list that desperately wants to be a mech list. It's like putting a big horn sheep hide on a pasture grazer. You can squint as hard as you want but it will never be as fast, strong or mean as an actual big horn. It's still just a fat slow pasture sheep.

[ArmouredWing]

Hey, well I guess that should have put me straight but from my experience the predominantly footslogger list I'm currently running has proven its worth against some extremely mobile lists time and again.

 

The other thing I'm interested in is your statement that mec lists are outperforming footslogger lists since 5th ed. It's a bit of a bold statement if I my say so and something that I seriously doubt you could supply any credable evidence to support.

 

The pure and simple truth is mec builds are EASIER to use, I've said this before. They present an effective build that is easy to get to grips with and is extremely forgiving but they re not the be all and end all to an effective list.

 

When it comes down to it I'd have to say tht anyone who thinks inquisition, or in fact any codex choice, is a one trick pony is either too lazy or too proud to go through the process of running lists that may mean they'll lose some games or they are a mixture of both.

[SamaNagol]

When it comes down to it I'd have to say tht anyone who thinks inquisition, or in fact any codex choice, is a one trick pony is either too lazy or too proud to go through the process of running lists that may mean they'll lose some games or they are a mixture of both.

 

Think about that last sentence.

[Eddie Orlock]

Does the BRB have Crack Shot then? I'm pretty sure that the conclusion our group came to with just the Guard Codex and the BRB was that Pask ignores cover.

Nope, not in the rule book. I'm surprised you'd have to ask. I digress that I normally assume everyone has the core rule book.

[Terminus]

Remember that the plasma tank cannot pop LRs any day of the week. Just drive on up. Other threats will be downplayed - those tanks are expensive, and you can only take so many lascannons.

Well, not true. Technically it has 5 S8 shots, and one S10 shot, so it has plenty of chances to at least glance, and one chance to penetrate a Land Raider.

 

...Knight Commander Pask, who provides Crack Shot (ignoring cover)...

 

Nope. Crack Shot only provides +1 to the penetration roll / reroll to wound against MCs.

 

From a Guard perspective, it's usually inefficient to actually buy a plasma-death machine. Executioner, Plasma sponsons, and Pask could instead buy ton of other units. If I was going to tailor a list against MEQs, I'd rather take a pair of barebones Russ Battle Tanks that that monster. A case could be made for Deathwing-style lists (for the AP2), but for only a few points more, I'd rather take a pair of Demolishers.

 

As others have said, it's still only one tank. As others have said, it's alot of eggs that can be easily neutralized by proper use of cover and cheap melta units - bread and butter for a water-style army updated for 5th.

Listen to this man. Crack Shot does NOT ignore cover, ever. Instead of one uber tank, a smart guard player will bring two cheaper ones.

[Lord_Zyplon]

Eddie Orlock quoted Pask's rule in it's entirety. References to the Eldar Codex are moot - it's a different Codex.

 

Going on the presumption that Crack Shot is in the BRB (it's not, by the way) then the C:IG rule would be in direct confrontation with it - so IG would take precedence, anyway... that's a common theme is this forum, I'd hope you know ;)

 

To stay on topic, yes. Numerical superiority is the true strength of the Guard - anyone to tries to play the Codex otherwise isn't playing to its potential. There's a rule somewhere about tanks, that multiples of the same tank aren't more effective by the difference, but by the square of the difference. As an example, two Leman Russes aren't twice as effective as one, but rather four times as effective - twice the guns and twice as many targets for the enemy to kill.

 

The same holds true for power armor - SR's Water Style lists show this well. One Land Raider is scary, but three? That's a nightmare for most players. The argument that the Executioner is the best tank for the job is like saying one LR Crusader is better than two Predator Destructors for gunning down light infantry... granted, I haven't played Loyalist Marines in quite a while, but I'd presume that the Predators are still much better.

 

Well, not true. Technically it has 5 S8 shots, and one S10 shot, so it has plenty of chances to at least glance, and one chance to penetrate a Land Raider.

 

Only with Pask. He's honestly more effective in other Russ variants - the Vanquisher and Exterminator are most commonly cited (Heavy AT/anti MC and anti transport).