5 plasma cannons on a tank noooo

[Warp Angel]

Does the BRB have Crack Shot then? I'm pretty sure that the conclusion our group came to with just the Guard Codex and the BRB was that Pask ignores cover.

Nope, not in the rule book. I'm surprised you'd have to ask. I digress that I normally assume everyone has the core rule book.

 

Most of my posts are made during breaks at work and I don't have the BRB with me at work.

 

I did look it up when I got home on Friday, and did indeed confirm that I'm an idiot. :D

[ArmouredWing]

Don't get me wrong, I've fielded both mec lists and footslogger lists and, yes, mec is easier to handle but it comes at a cost. Footsloggers on the other hand are harder to make perform but when you've got a grasp on what makes them tick it's worth the journey.

Hmm. We may have to agree to disagree on this one, AW. :) Played by equally competent generals, I would pick a strong mech build over a strong infantry build every time. I think the 5th edition rules-set really supports this. For example, I bet a fully mech'd Sisters list would trounce most infantry Sisters lists. I believe this would be the case because the mech list would have the ability to pick and choose its battles while the infantry Sisters list would not.

 

Infantry lists depend on not getting shot off the table.

Mech lists depend on defining the fight in the most favorable terms for the mech army.

 

The 2nd is a much stronger proposition. If nothing else, it puts the player in control of his destiny in the way an infantry list cannot.

Needless to say I've been pondering this over the wekeend and in relation to =][= lists, maybe even more specific to SoB is consideration as to what is available to field in the first place. For me the question is what presents a better investment? A rhino with smoke and, maybe, extra armour or 4/5 standard sisters to bulk out the squad?

 

I think part of the issue really comes down to the prohibitive cost of 'hunters' rhinos. When they eventually come down in price to relfect the current level of MEQ transports then undoubtedly mec perhaps will be the only really viable option but at the moment 4+ sisters are definitely worth more on the table than a rhino and the way I look at it all that one shot anti armour is wasted against infantry. By virtue of the fact that EVERYONE seems to accept that armour is going to be more prolific then it stands to reason that infantry steadily become more survivable due to lists packing a large amount of single shot, high S weapons.

 

The other consideration has got to be the effect that infantry have on armour as well. Once you get in CC that critical hit is going to be far easier to acheive than from a distance especially when adding HotE to a sister squad.

 

More bodies = more attacks, more armour saves, more fire, harder earned KP's, more effective use of DG and ultimately a more dogged unit to remove from an objective. In a standard 1500pts all comers list there's a great deal of security to be had in having 56 sisters on the table compared to 40 and 4 rhinos. The comparison in my current list is 10KP's against the mec list of 14 and in the mec list over 50% of the KP's are held in fairly easily killed/routed units.

 

That said there does have to be a differentiation between the likes of a rhino and a russ because they serve different purposes but the key is using an effective combination of troops and support to get the job done.

 

Like I said (and this isn't maliciously aimed at you number6) but it is an easy statement to make that toe to toe mech sisters would beat footslogging sisters. There are very few people out there who have gone to the effort of actually getting to really understand what is possible and instead chosen the easier path of accepting conventional wisdom to build their lists. I've been on the block long enough to understand the elementory principles people are preaching as gospel, what does annoy me is that this only serves to propagate the myth that if you stray off the very limited path you will not perform and that is simply not true.

[number6]

Where I disagree with you on your assessment, AW, is the apparent assumption (and please correct me if I'm reading your post incorrectly) that building a mech list -- that must also include it's own anti-mech weaponry -- is inherently less efficient at killing an infantry list.

 

Firstly, all of an infantry list's anti-infantry weapons are useless against a fully-mech'd list. Meanwhile, the mech list is free to outrange and outmaneuver the infantry list. Lots of tanks and transports in the game are superb at killing infantry, and the Sisters are no exception. Have you ever seen or faced an immolater-spam army? That's the kind of army I had in mind when I made my earlier statement about a mech Sisters outperforming an infantry Sisters.

 

The best anti-mech weapons are meltas, and meltas are short-ranged weapons. And to use them effectively, consistently, those meltas must be mounted. Either in the hands of embarked infantry or on the vehicles themselves. So consider an infantry/tank combo to be a single "unit". At least one of those halves must carry the anti-mech so that you can strand enemy infantry in the open and eliminate threats to your own vehicles. Once you've done that, the other half of the "unit" can come into its own and nail the exposed infantry.

 

A pure infantry list offers neither the inherent protection that a mech list does, nor the speed and mobility to dictate where and when fights will occur ... against what specific enemy units.

 

Meltas are also great anti-infantry weapons when tackling heavy infantry (e.g., terminators) and monstrous creatures. So if you have access to them, you should take as many as you can get! THey are the means for defeating opposing mech armies as well as opposing infantry armies. (After all, all your embarked infantry should be capable of taking care of the enemy.) Fortunately, sisters have ready access to them. It's one of the reasons I think they are an extremely competitive 5th edition army. The other reason they kick ass is because they can be fully mechanized. The combination is brutal, especially when you're talking about a pure power-armoured army with access to magic rule-bending powers in the form of Faith.

 

Sisters are an extremely optimized mech force. The vehicles can specialize in anti-infantry or anti-armour delivery, and the sisters themselves are entirely capable of dealing with armour and infantry alike in the same unit, at the same time. What's not to love about this combo?

 

Essentially, a mech army is a "more is more" kind of army. More heavy weaponry, more firepower, more mobility, more survivabilty. The only downside is fewer actual infantry models. But all of the other pros easily outweigh that one single con. The mech army dictates the style of play when it hits the table. An infantry army does not. Indeed, can not do that.

[avatar8481]

What Number6 said is the best summary of why to take mech, and why mech defeats foot-sloggers both in strategic theory and in actual gameplay. You can argue about how to mech up (tanks vs transports vs bikes vs speeders) or in the case of DH, the specific proportion of raiders to rhinos/chimera troop transports but the overall concept is the same.

 

There are weapons to kill tanks, and there are weapons to kill troops, tank-killing weapons can kill troops, but not the other way around, and the longer you deny your opponent shots on your troops the more you make him play your game, rather than the other way around.

[ArmouredWing]

Number 6, I feel quite emotional, this is our first argument!!! lol

 

There's a couple of areas where you have got the wrong end of the stick mate so I'll endevour to clarify.

 

Where I disagree with you on your assessment, AW, is the apparent assumption (and please correct me if I'm reading your post incorrectly) that building a mech list -- that must also include it's own anti-mech weaponry -- is inherently less efficient at killing an infantry list.

Nope, I've not even implied this. Fact of the matter is a good list will see off all comers and over the past couple of years that's what I've been trying to do, mainly because the lists I've been facing have been powergame lists with a view for ToS. A list has got to be good at most things and where it isn't strong it's got to be tough enough to take the damage. At no time have I said one list is BETTER than the other, in fact I've said that footsloggers can be fielded EQUALLY as effective.

 

Firstly, all of an infantry list's anti-infantry weapons are useless against a fully-mech'd list. Meanwhile, the mech list is free to outrange and outmaneuver the infantry list. Lots of tanks and transports in the game are superb at killing infantry, and the Sisters are no exception. Have you ever seen or faced an immolater-spam army? That's the kind of army I had in mind when I made my earlier statement about a mech Sisters outperforming an infantry Sisters.

You probably won't remember but a few months ago I asked for some spamollator lists to have a play around with for a gaming weekend. Truth was I was feeling a bit lazy (yeah, i know!) and couldn't be bothered to put one together so used a submission that had been played in a tournie. Good list too, I could see why people play these lists. Very effective, very fast, pretty fragile but, yeah, not bad. Struggled against nidzilla though even though it out performed tau. Problem is it's over done. Too many people play it and (here's where we get back to one of my original points) people forget about the other options available. As such they get too used to playing that style of list and if they're forced to try something else they miss the point that it's not necessarily the roster but the choices they made during the game that lost the battle. It's easy to blame the tools rather than the craftsman using them.

 

The best anti-mech weapons are meltas, and meltas are short-ranged weapons. And to use them effectively, consistently, those meltas must be mounted. Either in the hands of embarked infantry or on the vehicles themselves. So consider an infantry/tank combo to be a single "unit". At least one of those halves must carry the anti-mech so that you can strand enemy infantry in the open and eliminate threats to your own vehicles. Once you've done that, the other half of the "unit" can come into its own and nail the exposed infantry.

Well this comes down to planning. My list is of 2 halves, one to deal with infantry, the other for armour. Then comes the target priority, exorcists hit the biggest threats to the running infantry and enable the infantry to get across the table to get to grips with the harder nuts. Troop units are specialised going either 2 templates or 2 meltas and they escort each other across the table. Yes they are open to fire but the squads tend to be large enough to soak the wounds.

 

A pure infantry list offers neither the inherent protection that a mech list does, nor the speed and mobility to dictate where and when fights will occur ... against what specific enemy units.

 

Meltas are also great anti-infantry weapons when tackling heavy infantry (e.g., terminators) and monstrous creatures. So if you have access to them, you should take as many as you can get! THey are the means for defeating opposing mech armies as well as opposing infantry armies. (After all, all your embarked infantry should be capable of taking care of the enemy.) Fortunately, sisters have ready access to them. It's one of the reasons I think they are an extremely competitive 5th edition army. The other reason they kick ass is because they can be fully mechanized. The combination is brutal, especially when you're talking about a pure power-armoured army with access to magic rule-bending powers in the form of Faith.

There are more ways than taking the fight to the enemy to dictate terms. As for the likes of termies etc, well I'd rather have weight of wounds inflicted than knowing i might kill a couple. My melta fire is notoriously unreliable so templates combined with bolters and an almost definite DG will usually be more than enough to deal with that type of threat.

 

Sisters are an extremely optimized mech force. The vehicles can specialize in anti-infantry or anti-armour delivery, and the sisters themselves are entirely capable of dealing with armour and infantry alike in the same unit, at the same time. What's not to love about this combo?

 

Essentially, a mech army is a "more is more" kind of army. More heavy weaponry, more firepower, more mobility, more survivabilty. The only downside is fewer actual infantry models. But all of the other pros easily outweigh that one single con. The mech army dictates the style of play when it hits the table. An infantry army does not. Indeed, can not do that.

More KP's is another you've failed to acknowledge. Seriously, I'm not saying that footsloggers is better just that it can compete with the big boys. I'm advocating trying something different and something that is competative with maybe a little bit of practice.

[number6]

Number 6, I feel quite emotional, this is our first argument!!! lol

And I think I've about exhausted what I have to say on the subject, so it's over quick! Pretty painless, I hope.

 

I would love to see some batreps you have for your style of army, AW. I think playing mech -- especially mech sisters -- is pretty well-understood. It would be instructive to see how your army copes with the difficulties I envision for them.

[minigun762]

I've been reading both sides of this discussion and regardless of the outcome I think there is alot of good information here.

 

For me, the main selling point of an all-infantry footslogging army is the added durability of having more wounds/bodies on the table. Regardless of the individual tactics you use, the overall goal of the army is to outlast the opponent. It becomes a war of attrition.

 

Whereas the mechanized approach is (usually) more about localized concentration(s) of force. You want to hit a particular part of their army with most/all of yours as to have an advantage in that location. Then you mount up and repeat.

The big disadvantage here is that once you start losing your transports, you're basically a smaller footslogging army.

 

The army that started as footsloggers believes that its inevitable that the battle will end up with infantry dismounted and fighting over objectives. In that situation their superior weight of numbers will carry the day.

The mechanized army will try to dely that moment as much as possible in order to achieve localized success and not engage the numberically superior forces directly.

 

For my money, the decisive factor is the amount of bodies you can buy for the price of a transport.

Chaos, for example, is typically 1-2 bodies for the price of a Rhino (depending on what you're using). Most of the time 1-2 extra bodies per squad won't make that much of a difference.

if I remember right, for SoB its something like 5 bodies for the price of their Rhino. That might be a big enough difference to let SoB win a battle of attrition, especially considering all their fancy Faith powers.

[ArmouredWing]

I've been reading both sides of this discussion and regardless of the outcome I think there is alot of good information here.

 

For me, the main selling point of an all-infantry footslogging army is the added durability of having more wounds/bodies on the table. Regardless of the individual tactics you use, the overall goal of the army is to outlast the opponent. It becomes a war of attrition.

 

Whereas the mechanized approach is (usually) more about localized concentration(s) of force. You want to hit a particular part of their army with most/all of yours as to have an advantage in that location. Then you mount up and repeat.

The big disadvantage here is that once you start losing your transports, you're basically a smaller footslogging army.

 

The army that started as footsloggers believes that its inevitable that the battle will end up with infantry dismounted and fighting over objectives. In that situation their superior weight of numbers will carry the day.

The mechanized army will try to dely that moment as much as possible in order to achieve localized success and not engage the numberically superior forces directly.

 

For my money, the decisive factor is the amount of bodies you can buy for the price of a transport.

Chaos, for example, is typically 1-2 bodies for the price of a Rhino (depending on what you're using). Most of the time 1-2 extra bodies per squad won't make that much of a difference.

if I remember right, for SoB its something like 5 bodies for the price of their Rhino. That might be a big enough difference to let SoB win a battle of attrition, especially considering all their fancy Faith powers.

Wow! A kindred spirit...just when I thought I was all alone.....

[avatar8481]

I'm with number6 on this one, as if that wasn't obvious. Mech lets you more flexibly deal with whatever army shows up across from you, whereas footslogger tends to not have that luxury. Mech is a much more 'water' choice if that's important to you, and is therefore more optimal as a generalist approach. Further, the changes to the vehicle rules in 5th made mech increasingly more important (for mobility in capturing objectives) and survivability (the vehicles themselves are more survivable, and the guys inside dramatically more so.)

[Justicar Valius]

well here's the thing see

 

;) :) :P

[Hellbreaker]

well here's the thing see

 

:) :) :)

 

Seconded, I've been reading this discussion about tanks and suddenly I get mech vs footy...

 

Bha... I'd love hearing more stuff about how to counter the IG tanks, with both DH and WH... Mostly WH(As I play them) but oh well...

 

Now what a water list is I dunno...

 

Back to tanks! Couldn't you try to get a unit of arco-flagellants to them or something?

Or a jump pack, blessed weapon cannoness?

 

Cheers!

[- 7eAL -]

Bha... I'd love hearing more stuff about how to counter the IG tanks, with both DH and WH... Mostly WH(As I play them) but oh well...

 

Now what a water list is I dunno...

 

Back to tanks! Couldn't you try to get a unit of arco-flagellants to them or something?

Or a jump pack, blessed weapon cannoness?

Jump Canoness again? Save her for something else, Seraphim can do the job quicker and easier with inferno pistols.

 

A Water list is basically a favoured Grey Knights build, doesn't apply very well to the Sisters and can't be easily understood without the heavy theory that's been stickied on the board.

[Warp Angel]

well here's the thing see

 

^_^ :D :P

 

Seconded, I've been reading this discussion about tanks and suddenly I get mech vs footy...

 

Bha... I'd love hearing more stuff about how to counter the IG tanks, with both DH and WH... Mostly WH(As I play them) but oh well...

 

Now what a water list is I dunno...

 

Back to tanks! Couldn't you try to get a unit of arco-flagellants to them or something?

Or a jump pack, blessed weapon cannoness?

 

Cheers!

 

As a tank, it's AV14 Front, which means that in shooting both pure GK and WH have a limited number of options for what's effective in shooting. Given it's 36" range, it's going to take some time to close with to get within 6" or 12". The induction guard options change the field so that this isn't as much of an issue, so I'm leaving them out of it for now. I will, however, include Inq. Stormtroopers and Inquisitor/Retinues where appropriate.

 

GK Shooting Options:

--------------------------

Lascannons - LR, Dreadnaught

Assault Cannons - LRC, Dreadnaught

Multi-Melta - Dreadnaught, Gun Servitor, but not truly effective until within 12"

Melta Gun - Inq. Stormtroopers, but not truly effective until within 6"

Krak Missile - Dreadnaught

 

 

GK Hand to Hand vs. AV11 rear:

-------------------------------------

Hammerhands Psychic Power, Thunderhammer, Nemesis Force Weapon, Inq. Power Fist, Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs, DCCW,

 

Not a whole lot of options there in shooting, but plenty hand to hand that are widely available. It becomes very obvious, very quickly, that you need to close (and preferably into hand to hand) with this kind of tank to threaten it. Without going into detailed discussion about it, the best way is by using a transport to get them in range. Rhinos and Chimeras are both somewhat vulnerable to shooting, and a LR is more or less immune unless they upgrade to Pask. The former are relatively cheap, but suffer from not being assault vehicles, giving your opponent one more turn of CC-threat free existence. The latter allows you to dump out your assault troops and commense to whompin'.

 

Given that the LR and LRC are both transports AND able to threaten the Plasma Executioner tank in shooting, it's not a bad option and is the one that I'd go with.

 

WH Shooting

-------------------

Exorcist Launcher - Exorcist

Multi Melta - Immolators, various Sister squads, Gun Servitors

Melta Gun - various Sister squads, Inq. Stormtroopers

Inferno Pistol - no codex with me, I'm pretty sure it's in there.

Las Cannon - Land Raider

 

 

WH Close Combat

---------------------

Special Wargear options, krak grenades, melta bombs, power fists

 

The WH have far fewer options in what they can do in hand to hand, and with the exception of the Exorcist, everything is VERY short range, requiring them to close. The fastest way to close the distance is with transports, but given the limited number of LR available to the army, and the lack of good CC capability against AV11, there's not a whole lot of reason to buck for one. Rhinos and Immolators will allow quick deployment of melta weaponry, and the immolators themselves can be used as melta delivery platforms. Exorcists are limited in number, somewhat random, but have good range and are a threat in shooting, and a pair of them is a pretty reliable way to take out an AV14 tank in the first turn or two of the game.

 

With both armies, your best tactic is generally close quickly. For the GK, you want to get to CC range as fast as possible. The sisters want to get within half melta range. Only the sisters have relatively cost effective standoff weaponry, and both of them benefit from having transports available to help them close into optimum killing range.

 

Neither army's basic weapons have any chance of hurting the tank in shooting from any direction, so the old standby of "bolter shot to the rear" doesn't work.

[avatar8481]

Bha... I'd love hearing more stuff about how to counter the IG tanks, with both DH and WH... Mostly WH(As I play them) but oh well..

 

Same as every other army does: bring melta and bring it into their face...for GK/DH that means ISTs in Chimeras and LRC (which might as well have GKT in them.)

 

For WH, they have boat loads of melta choices, they just need to spam it and ram it down the other guys throat.

 

Both need to also bring anti-infantry weapons to kill whatever comes out of the tanks of course, but that's easily covered with LRC, storm bolters and Incinerators for GK and all the flamers for WH.

[minigun762]

well here's the thing see

 

:) ;) ;)

 

Fair enough :P

However I'd like to see the Mech vs Foot topic debated elsewhere, maybe in the tactica section?

[SamaNagol]

Start a new thread! More tactical discussion is always welcome.

[number6]

The conversation wandered a bit -- partly my own doing, I freely admit -- but it wandered naturally, and wasn't forced into place awkwardly.

 

That's the way I view topics in this forum. Conversations. Searchy can always be used to dig up information later if it's worth preserving ultimately.

 

"Off-topic" to me means somebody inserts a non-sequiter and insists it be followed. That does happen and has happened. Even in the recent past here. But I'm not willing to split this one off just because the subject matter happens to be worth its own topic. AW and I essentially got it out of the way in just a few posts, so it's not derailing much, and it's still relatively pertinent.

 

There, a bit of my moderation philosophy. :lol: Now get back to the conversation at hand.

[ArmouredWing]

Warp Angel,

 

That's not a bad assessment overall but I would point out that in CC sisters do have to option of going for Hand of the Emperor to double their S. With that being the case it makes their attacks glance on a 5 and penetrate on a 6. This is one of the big boons for sisters in 5th ed as now there are few vehicles which cannot be dealt with by a basic sister in HtH (Ironclads, LR's & monoliths being the untouchable few).

 

Meltaguns are the only real ranged weapon that our girls can pack to deal with armour but they do have their own issues, namely being the short range and the need to get close to deliver the killer punch. The key is the survivability of the unit (whatever way you decide to achieve that) and building that element into your list.

 

The other thing I'd have to raise though is that we are only talking about front armour being an issue and a russ doesn't have the all round toughness that a LR does. This means with a bit of consideration it should be possible to get a bead on the side armour with the long range guns, e.g. exorcist and pump some fire into it. In fact maybe it would be possible to make the guard player make mistakes in the deployment and movement because of forcing a decision on which way to face the front. It has got to be a viable option, using the russ' best advantage against itself?

[Warp Angel]

Warp Angel,

 

That's not a bad assessment overall but I would point out that in CC sisters do have to option of going for Hand of the Emperor to double their S. With that being the case it makes their attacks glance on a 5 and penetrate on a 6. This is one of the big boons for sisters in 5th ed as now there are few vehicles which cannot be dealt with by a basic sister in HtH (Ironclads, LR's & monoliths being the untouchable few).

 

Meltaguns are the only real ranged weapon that our girls can pack to deal with armour but they do have their own issues, namely being the short range and the need to get close to deliver the killer punch. The key is the survivability of the unit (whatever way you decide to achieve that) and building that element into your list.

 

The other thing I'd have to raise though is that we are only talking about front armour being an issue and a russ doesn't have the all round toughness that a LR does. This means with a bit of consideration it should be possible to get a bead on the side armour with the long range guns, e.g. exorcist and pump some fire into it. In fact maybe it would be possible to make the guard player make mistakes in the deployment and movement because of forcing a decision on which way to face the front. It has got to be a viable option, using the russ' best advantage against itself?

 

I'm not a sister's player, so I didn't think about the Hand of the Emperor ability. It is limited use, however, and not a guarantee. I wouldn't rely on it as a standard tactic, but utilize it as a tactic of opportunity if it were an ability in my codex.

 

As an avid guard player, I can say with some certainty, that against a solid guard player, you're not going to get many long ranged opportunities at side AV13 without access to Outflank and good Deep Strike capability. If you deploy first, it's unlikely that they'll give you a flank to shoot at, and if they deploy first, there's a good chance that an exposed flank has some sort of cover, or the tank is turtled in a corner. In short, you can never plan on a shot at side armor in your game strategy.

 

Adding to that the long ranged weapons mix in either inquisitorial army, there really isn't that much of a difference between 13 and 14 - no weapons are effective against AV13 that aren't also effective against 14 - so I didn't address it.

[Lord_Zyplon]

In fact maybe it would be possible to make the guard player make mistakes in the deployment and movement because of forcing a decision on which way to face the front. It has got to be a viable option, using the russ' best advantage against itself?

 

There's been extended discussion on Guard forums about how to combat this. Mostly, it comes down to biting the bullet and squadroning Russes together, facing them such that you're firing at AV14 from most directions.

 

How to destroy them efficiently? Well, to start, all Russes have AV13 standard as side armor. Great, no, but much better than AV12. Second, if your opponent is taking the shorter-ranged variants (I still hope they won't touch the Executioner or Punisher, but the Demolisher is an excellent tank), (s)he'll be moving around, easier for you to gain side or rear shots. Longer-ranged variants will probably be moving, taking advantage of the Lumbering Behemoth rule to prevent easy powerfist kills, but generally they'll stay far away. (Pask, of course, wouldn't be moving.)

With moderately speedy AT elements, you should easily be able to outmanoeuvre for rear shots. If not, keep some reserves to outflank or deepstrike.

A well-balanced (read: not mech, not armor) Guard list will have plenty of infantry to spare, so don't be surprised if your opponent literally keeps a unit behind his/her Russes to deter/absorb melta shots.

 

In the Witch Hunters' list, I would be least afraid of Exorcists. D6 S8, AP1 shots on a Predator hull. More than likely they wouldn't move, so I can keep AV14 facing you until Vendettas/Stormtroopers/Vets tear it apart. Speedy Sisters squads with meltaguns, in Immolators with multimeltas (they can take MMs, right?) are much scarier - they're faster, more numerous, and if you swap the Immolator for a Rhino, cheaper (I think.)

 

Daemonhunters are the same boat as far as AT Dreadnoughts are concerned. Point AV14 at it, wait until air support arrives. GHLRs are more of a threat, simply because they're tough nuts to crack. I'd probably get melta Vets/Stormtroopers over there ASAP and hope for the best... or take my chances with a Bastion-Breacher Medusa or two.

GK/GKT are less of a threat; their primary method of destroying tanks (CC with NFW) gives me plenty of time against footsloggers, and at least one turn against deepstrike.

 

My (very long) $0.02

[SamaNagol]

Squadrons of Bastion Breacher Medusas are HORRIBLE. *shudders*

[number6]

Assaulting armour is no panacea.

 

Smart IG players will also be sure to put heavy flamers on all their vehicles to discourage assaults. Pretty much nobody likes getting slammed with a heavy flamer when you're all bunched up against armour (or have been nicely lined up if you failed to do anything and then the armour moves a bit, just enough to rack you up for some great template action). Also, if assaults are inevitable, the mech general should be moving his/her vehicles 6+ inches each turn once the infantry gets too close ... unless you can get some burnination on with those heavy flamers, of course! Otherwise, tactics should turn from outright shooting to blocking, tank-shocking, etc., and letting the other elements of your list do more the work.

 

With heavy flamers on all vehicles, there's very little a pure infantry force can do to counter it. Sure, take down a tank or transport or two (or three if you're lucky with a multi-charge), but then get burnt off the table in swift retribution. (You may note that this hearkens back to the immolator spam list I mentioned in passing earlier. All those heavy flamers are one of the big big reasons that list is so brutal and should defeat just about any infantry list.) There's precious little daemons or orks or tyranids can do about it, just for example.

 

And while vehicle squadrons have several downsides, one of the upsides is the ability to protect their side armour. When you fire at a vehicle squadron, all your hits are resolved against the armour facing of the vehicle nearest you. Angle a couple of leman russes just right in a corner, and you may be very hard pressed to hit anything that isn't AV 14.

 

Cover saves are another great benefit for vehicle squadrons. At least when your squadron is just two vehicles. You can park one vehicle directly in front of another. They don't block line of sight to each other, but when single-shot anti-armour comes in and scores a hit, the owner of the squadron can just put the hit on the "hidden" vehicle in the squadron and benefit from a 3+ cover save. And since we're talking about IG, you put camo netting on that 2nd vehicle and then the save becomes 2+. That is a squadron that is going to be exceedingly difficult to damage, let alone destroy.

 

I don't see footsloggers doing anything to squadrons in situations like this. You have to get in close, fast, with your meltas to force hits on multiple vehicles. You need to be mechanized to do it, otherwise the heavy flamers will just roast you when you get too close.

[SamaNagol]

Did I just read that right? Taking a cover save from a vehicle in the same squadron? That can't be right.

[Lord_Zyplon]

Nope, you don't. Section in parenthesis, pg 64, 2nd column, 2nd paragraph.

[number6]

Nope, you don't. Section in parenthesis, pg 64, 2nd column, 2nd paragraph.

Ah, correct. And now that I think of it, where I've seen this is when the opposing IG player sticks a Chimera (or two, perhaps) in front of his other armour, giving them all improved cover saves.