5 plasma cannons on a tank noooo

[ArmouredWing]

Right, where do I start?

 

HotE would be a good place I reckon. So back in 4th ed your standard sister was completely ineffectual against armour without the addition of krak grenades. 5th ed has changed the playing field though and now your basic sister can efectively have a chance of attacking and killing all but the hardest of enemy armour.

HotE is easier to achieve with more sisters in a squad (the same as DG) and it works with every attack made. So with a minimum squad of 10 sisters wth the necessary vet upgrade that means 21 attacks on the charge. Against a russ that means, statistically, you hould be lookin at 7 damaging hits, 3 of one level and 4 of the other. For my money that's not bad going and also means that sisters have been given a real boost in tactical flexibilty. True, it's not something to base your plan 'A' on but then I don't plan faith into any equation, I plan to do well with what I've got which can then be boosted by AoF.

 

I am much surprised by anyone who maks the statement that MM immolators present a scarier thought than an exorcist. The beauty of the Hvy Flmr immolator is it's speed and as soon as you fit it with anything else it becomes more expensive and less effective. You'll (hopefully) move 12" in the first turn, pop smoke and then start to take fire. All you need is a weapon destroyed roll and it becomes an automatic waste of 20pts an the number of weapons that can do damage will be many. Exorcists may not have the weapon S but they do have the weight of fire, especially when tabled in 2 or 3 and at the end of the day this is a numbers game. More dice means am increased chance of success and I'd be more than happy with an immobilised or weapon destroyed roll on an enemy vehicle than nothing at all. It's about managing your expectations.

 

As for flamers on vehicles? We all know how tricky that one can be and when troops get that close it's about killing as many as possible before they kill you.

 

I do have to say I'm really surprised by the sheer amount of 'nay saying' in relation to the prospect of using ground troops on here. Question is how many of you really know your sisters units and really understand what they are capable of?

[number6]

From my perspective, the "nay saying" comes from not understanding how 21 attacks result in so many hits. Do your opponents actually let their armour sit still so you can automatically hit? Everybody I play moves their tanks each and every turn, and when it's up against all infantry, all of the armour nearest the enemy infantry move 6+" (unless they're tank-shocking to line up heavy flamers), meaning the infantry can only hit on 6s. Out of 21 attacks, that's only 3.5 hits with 1.16 of those hits (at S5) getting glancing or better on rear armour 10. (About 50% of the time, that lone hit will be glancing, and the other 50% of the time it will be penetrating.) Which is to say: it's not that scary a proposition. I mean, there's just no reason for a mech army to sit still when infantry gets close. They should -- must -- keep moving!

 

It's that combination of heavy flamers on all vehicles plus the very poor ability of assaulting units to hurt mobile armour that makes the mech v infantry proposition so one-sided in my experience. If the infantry gets close, they don't hurt much, and then they get roasted. If they don't get close, they get shot up at distance ... and then the stragglers get roasted. Very few of the embarked units ever even see the table, they just shoot from the fire points.

[Hellbreaker]

*prays his fellow IG players won't get that chimera cover idea*

 

Hmm... As a side note: As a Tyranid player myself I'd suppose said tanks would be positioned close to terrain, right?

If so, it's lictor time. :)

 

As a sister player I'd probably go with the immolator melta sisters as noted before, but putting MMs on immolators are a waste of both time, shots and points in my opinion... Since well... I could buy a squad of dominions, equip them all (assuming it's 4 dom's and a vet) with meltas and the vet with well... Nothing... Speed forward, jump out, melta the carp out of the tanks, jump back in. Rinse and repeat.

 

Also, if I'm feeling funny I could always make the melta shots rending... Or was that CC... Hmm... No it was rending for shooting... :D

For some extra hilarity of course...

 

Cheers!

[Warp Angel]

Nope, you don't. Section in parenthesis, pg 64, 2nd column, 2nd paragraph.

Ah, correct. And now that I think of it, where I've seen this is when the opposing IG player sticks a Chimera (or two, perhaps) in front of his other armour, giving them all improved cover saves.

 

Sentinels - or my favorite, Hellhound variants work wonders too. The point is cheap, expendable, or better yet another kind of threat they can't ignore.

 

What do the people who scoff at a Plasma sponsoned Executioner think of a list that pairs the tank with a Hellhound or two?

 

No tank is ever going to be in isolation and it's a very logical pairing, still leaving a 1500 point list with 1100+ points for other things.

[avatar8481]

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/08/di...e-gunlines.html

 

read it, learn it, love it.

[ArmouredWing]

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/08/di...e-gunlines.html

 

read it, learn it, love it.

Heh heh heh, yeah I've visited this site before and this guy has got a REAL closed mind on what is possible, especially with the support of a particularly sycophantic fanbase.

 

Like I say folks, open your minds and question convention because otherwise you'll condemn sisters in the eyes of all non-inquisition players.

[number6]

Like I say folks, open your minds and question convention because otherwise you'll condemn sisters in the eyes of all non-inquisition players.

 

Hmmm. Interesting batrep.

 

But as I've said before, AW, I don't think Sisters need be "condemned" at all. IMHO, mech sisters has always been one of the strongest 40K armies. True before 5th edition, still true today. I may love my GKs, but I think a mech Sisters army is Just Better.

[GoneFishing]

I am actually going to jump in on this one (even though I am a filthy Xenos Tau Player), I have actually played against WH Footsloggers and Mech Lists - and know both lists well.

 

Which list worries me more? The Footsloggers. - From a personal perspective Armour really does not worry me (especially WH armour). With a standard Tau list I can be relatively sure (as long as my rolls dont go to pot) of taking down most of it before it gets to the halfway line. Rhino's tend to do quite badly against Strength 10 auto glancing (and more than likely penertrating) Rail Guns and High Rate of Fire Missile Pods...Even the standard Fire Warrior has a chance of taking out a Rhino at 30" Range.

 

So when the smoke clears you tend to be left facing a mech list on foot - Ie. Small units of Sisters easily overwhelmed and under equipped - Small Squads of sisters will be easily overwhelmed by Kroot and Hounds (I 5) and massed Fire.

 

The opposite is true when you are facing 46 odd Battle sisters in Big Units, with a BOL and various acts of faith giving them several annoying abilities, backed up by 3 exorcists and a Command Squad. The sisters take an insane amount of Fire to take down, they rarely run (BOL) and are masters (even more deadly than Tau) at massed short to medium ranged fire - Divine Guidance anyone? - Equiping the units with Flamers or Melta'a increases the specialisation, with the melta unit being able to take on Tanks, Heavy Infantry, MEQs and MC's (with the poetential with Divine Guidance) of 3 - 5 AP1 Shots if the units in rapid fire range. And the Flamer Units can mince there way through alot too, and Divine Guidance on the Flamer Templates is just nasty (Against any sort of Infantry).

 

In a Killpoints game:

 

Footsloggers have less Kill Points on the Table, and you have to really work for those Killpoints. It can take several turns of massed firing to actually take out a huge squad of Battle Sisters, and 5th edition, with TLOS, Cover Saves, Run etc has made these units more Manuverable and even harder to kill.

 

5th edition as a whole actually made it easier to destroy tanks (especially Skimmers) and made infantry better - and a foot slogging sisters list fits into that niche perfectly. For an Anti Tank army they can be very hard to remove, and present a significant stumbling block for an Infantry Army - If you mistime that charge by the time the sisters have taken there finger off the trigger there wont be alot left.

 

In objective games I have seen the Footslogger happily bunker down on Two objectives and virually dare the opposistion to try and take them off them, then just concentrate on contesting the other objectives - it gets even harder in seize ground.

 

Simply put, there are very few people that doubt (for the points cost) that SOBS are one of the best infantry units in the game - with tremendous potential to cause mayhem (if played right). And 5th Edition has increased there advantages exponentially - and they are Scoring!

 

I think what AW is trying to say (and I agree with him) is that Mech is not the only way to play sisters competively, and I am not trying to say that Either Approach is better than the other (although personally as a Tau Player I find Mech Sisters easier to deal with) - But neither should be dismissed out of hand.

 

As far as I can see the major difference between them is the Mech list is easier to play, whereas the Footsloggers may take a little practice to find your Mojo with - but in the hands of an experienced player - they can be EQUALLY deadly, and a very very different gaming experience.

[Spacefrisian]

In regards to the Leman russ with Plasmacannons, why not just rush youre army towards his troops. How closer you get to them how trickier it gets for the tank not to hit his own troops.

[number6]

@GoneFishing: Heh. B) Tau is my second army (after GKs), and I have just the opposite situation. But talking about it here for too long would be against B&C rules. However, this would make for an interesting discussion on the LO Tau forums where I also hang out, if you're so inclined.

[ripath]

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/08/di...e-gunlines.html

uggh I strongly dislike people like that, who think that people who use x playstyle need to be taught a lesson. That being said I would love to play this guy in extremely dense city fight terrain. where his mobility counts for so much less. Also look at the artillery group below for why guard can and will gunline.

 

Also I'm going to have to disagree that the 5 plasmacannon tank is the worst thing that you could face. Just running off of memory I think that russ costs around 250 points if I'm right. So lets compare 2 Executioner tanks to a manticore, x2 hydras, and x2 medusas with siege shells.

 

x2 Executioner 500ish

10 plasmacannon shots

2 lascannon shots

4 heavy stubber shots

For almost the same price as a land raider these two tanks can pump out a lot more killyness per tank but is limited by speciality, this tank has a very small niche that it fills.

 

Manticore 160

x2 Hydra 150

x2 medusa 240

d3 large blast str 10 ap4

x8 72" twin linked autocannon shots that ignore turbo boosting and flat out saves

x2 str10 ap1 small blast w/ additional die for penetration

This artillery group will decimate anything from 30 man ork boy squads, eldar tanks, to land raiders. the extra 50 points is worth it for every guard player though.

 

The reason why I bring up that artillery group is that it is a very VERY solid heavy support group that can effectively deal with any threat across the board. My point is that most likely you will see artillery groups like this more then the 5 plas can tanks. The catch on why you don't see more right now is that you have to convert your own models for each of these units. Also I do realize that this doesn't really help much when your facing that 5 plas can tank but looking at those artillery pieces across the board has caused me more problems then the 5 plas cannon tank by a long shot.