Fluffy, yet competitive Word Bearers

[Shaggaroth]

Hello again, after some lengthy debates and pondering, I've decided to field Word Bearers.

 

I have got some time till November, when there will be a huge tournament in my country (well, huge is ~100 people for us :down: )

 

The question is, how could I build a force that doesn't break the fluff for Word Bearers, yet is viable in a tourney?

 

Thanks aforehead.

[TheDarkApostle]

And that's where the amazing uniqueness of the Word Bearers come into play.

 

You can field exactly anything and still be fluffy. :)

 

Because the army's composition is dictated by the whims of the Dark Apostle which commands it and the Dark Apostle in turn get his whims from what he can make out of the dreams and thoughts he are given by the True Gods.

 

TDA

[chillin]

Since undivided csm's are one of the best troop types in the game, it is totally possible to build a competitive WB army that is also fluffy.

[minigun762]

Since undivided csm's are one of the best troop types in the game, it is totally possible to build a competitive WB army that is also fluffy.

 

Agreed. I'd say as long as you stay away from the four cult troops, you're building a fluff and effective Word Bearers army.

 

In general though, people tend to expect Word Bearers to be fairly infantry heavy and possibly using Daemons as support.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

No culkt troops, no icons or marks other than chaos glory. everything else is a go.

[Shaggaroth]

I would disagree on icons; I see Word Bearers as similar to ancient Greeks - praying for each god for the distinctive sphere, like Nurgle for protection and Khorne for battle prowess... So, while they lack the cult dedication, carrying an icon for specific purposes would be acceptable. Is that wrong?

[incinerator950]

You're right, but taking one of each Icon is not tactically sound.

[Corpse.]

Tacticlly sound if you plan it accordingly. Having raptors with IoN is like having the cheap two turn assaulting bikes we normally have. With 20 models, its 22.5 points a model rather then the +(insert awful amount here to = a chaos bike) makes a nice tarpit/muncher unit.

 

Khorne havocs with 4 meltaguns/flamers with combi-weapon champ using a fist or a twin claw unit of 4 termies also works great.

 

Slaanesh PW termies, or slaanesh twin claw chosen that hits a flank hard (if you feel like ancient 3.5 tactics) are fun, slaanesh icon works nice with raptors as well.

 

Tzeentch for basic troops works well to cover for their final weakness, but like for the nurgle icon the squad should be big to actually take advantage of it.

 

Undivided icon if you cant pick.... Best part is leaving each model un-marked even the icon bearer and have inter-change-able icons for all units. That alone is fun, and if you miss fearlessness just add Fabius in larger games and make a lot of basic marines enhanced marines.

 

 

Basic daemons are alright, if you bunch together the cost of 10 marines, all their upgrades + rhino it comes out the cost of about 20 lesser daemons (2 wounds with 5++ with double melee attacks with no ranged attacks is still balanced to having half as many melee attacks with special guns/powerfist).

 

So dont be ashamed to take whatever, though possessed are the hardest to make useful as they have to be effective in filling multiple roles that are already being taken care of so they arent doing it solo. Preferably melee or missile launcher+DCCW dreads (pick frag for when it shoots your stuff).

 

1 Lord = claws.. If you want 2 HQ and run them side by side then daemonweapon lords are fine, though princes may be a better start if you run mecha with lower troop count then a rhino-based army. (You have a termi unit+raider and 3 heavy support for example)

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I would disagree on icons; I see Word Bearers as similar to ancient Greeks - praying for each god for the distinctive sphere, like Nurgle for protection and Khorne for battle prowess... So, while they lack the cult dedication, carrying an icon for specific purposes would be acceptable. Is that wrong?

 

Sorry, but thats simply not how it is. The WB do not tolerate their membors favoring one god above another. They worship chaos undivided as awhole, and while the do recognize the individual gods they wouldn't do it to the extent of using icons. This is basically said in all established WB fluff, and in the places where they had their own rules they were restricted to Chaos Glory only.

[Night Lord Dred]

I just ignore the marks and look at them as +1A, +1 I, +1T and +1 invul. My Night Lords list has a nurgle prince (harder to see/hit), khorne raptors (deadlier than other legion raptors), and a winged slaneesh sorc (with warptime, not lash) to represent him being quick.

[the jeske]

well cool for you , but that doesnt change the fact that your playing with unfluffy units [because hard to hit is covered by the stealth rule for example] for WB . because your sorc is slanesh and your other prince is nurgle.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I just ignore the marks and look at them as +1A, +1 I, +1T and +1 invul. My Night Lords list has a nurgle prince (harder to see/hit), khorne raptors (deadlier than other legion raptors), and a winged slaneesh sorc (with warptime, not lash) to represent him being quick.

 

This sort of thing really depends on how much counts as you feel comfortable using.

 

When it comes down to it though, from a competitive standpoint it is moot. Chaos Glory is the only icon worth taking for any sort of competitive list.

[Night Lord Dred]

well cool for you , but that doesnt change the fact that your playing with unfluffy units [because hard to hit is covered by the stealth rule for example] for WB . because your sorc is slanesh and your other prince is nurgle.

 

Wow, shocking response. Thanks Captain Obvious...

 

The game is all about imagination anyways. In the end theyre just toys - they dont actually worship the Gods. I use NL units only. However, they took away NL rules and gave freewill over marks, so Im going to use them to turn them back into NLs the best I can.

 

I also dont know what youre talking about with being hard to hit - NLs got +1 cover save before. MoN makes it harder to get a wound on him, so in my mind hes simply faster and harder to see.

 

I play a 100% fluffy NL list. If you are too narrow minded and only see the mark of nurgle on my prince, well, luckly I dont care what you think

[Corpse.]

When it comes down to it though, from a competitive standpoint it is moot. Chaos Glory is the only icon worth taking for any sort of competitive list.

 

Anyone can argue 30 points getting +10 attacks raising 30 attacks to 40 attacks (+1 powerfist attack as well, which translates a charging 3 attacks to 4 attacks as +33% in the fists points as a deficit in the icon's points use) making a 30 point icon be...

+33% of 9 raptors melee attacks translated into points = 60 points

+33% of a raptor+champ upgrade+fist = 20 points

A 30 point icon gives a return value on the charge (and every turn thereafter plus a whopping +50%!!!) 80 points return value, and then +50% every turn there is no charge bonus.

 

A 10 point icon has 100% value only when that reroll is forced and not entirely perfect in value when 50% squad size and above to recover, since the slaanesh icon has value of out-running the enemy so the small margin of being below 50% and forcing the reroll in most cases the squad is already dead and possibly wont make the initiative test if the second LD reroll is failed (with LD10 failing easy in bad cases, it really doesnt matter by then).

 

Tell me how the icon of khorne doesnt stack up to reroll LD. Last I check, the glory icon is compedetive because of its low cost and compedetive standpoint while in squads large enough to take casualties and not lose their few high worth models. (The 2 special gunners and the champ)

 

All that aside, I think icons deddicated to gods are merely lone deviants located in the legion like priests of different deities of a pagan-styled hierarchy where all gods are welcome and each "priest" will bestow his gods gifts to the unit he accompanies.

 

Much like the priests of imperial guard bestowing their gift. And much like chaplains with their honor bound fearlessness+rerolls having the fervor boil in their bloods of having certain people accompany them. It just happens to be that the magical icons (like holy relics or such items) bestow gifts to the willing.

[minigun762]

Khorne is the other Icon that I'd consider "generally competetive" for the reasons you mentioned.

While its not useful out of assault, Chaos and the game in general has alot of emphasis on killing in the assault phase.

 

Slaanesh is situationally very powerful (I4/I5/I6 for HQs only) but otherwise uselss. Its what I'd consider a Meta-choice.

 

On paper, Tzeentch seems like a no-brainer because it fills a very important gap as protection against MEQ killers.

However this advantage is partially negated by (usually) having access to a superior cover save. Now there are times that an Armor Save and Cover Save can't help you (Wind of Chaos, Flamestorm Cannons, Doom Siren etc) but those are fairly uncommon. The main arguement for Icon of Tzeentch is that the bonus works in assault, unlike Cover. To make its points back, the Icon would have to save roughly 3 CSMs. Now if you figure in a 10 man squad, you'll probably end up saving 3.33 Marines if you roll average but thats only against weapons that punch through your normal Armor Save or deny cover.

All in all, its not a horrible choice, but it doesn't benefit you as much as it would seem. On units that already have an Inv save, I think it can be a nice bonus but for Terminators/Possessed I think just having more bodies would be better so that leaves only HQ units and for them, almost all of the Marks are worthwhile as the decision is normally made more for the particular Daemon Weapon or Psychic Power they'd be using.

 

The Icon of Nurgle is almost always regarded as the worst choice for squads, simply because its so expensive and Plague Marines come with alot more advantages for roughly the same price.

It can be useful on Terminators to protect against dakka spamming, but it does nothing against the normal TEQ killers like Plasma. It also is only really affordable on larger squads, which are already harder to use.

Like Mark of Tzeentch, it can be quite powerful on HQ units as its more reasonably priced there.

[the jeske]

I also dont know what youre talking about with being hard to hit - NLs got +1 cover save before. MoN makes it harder to get a wound on him, so in my mind hes simply faster and harder to see.

I open the dex. I look for the harder to hit upgrade... I dont find it . You use nurgle marks. NL were never seen with nurgle marks/icons . So either this is not fluff , or your making up stuff.

 

I play a 100% fluffy NL list. If you are too narrow minded and only see the mark of nurgle on my prince, well, luckly I dont care what you think

cool m8 . still not caring doesnt mean one cant follow something simple . there are no options for being faster , more killy etc there are options for being nurgle or khorn . am speaking about rules here . with counts as you could play an eldar list and say its NL , hell you could play a force made out of grotz and nob bikers and call it NL [you could even use csm models for that]. But that doesnt mean it wouldnt be an ork or eldar army actually. You do not play NL , any more then I do with my NM water warrior list.

 

 

The game is all about imagination anyways. In the end theyre just toys - they dont actually worship the Gods. I use NL units only. However, they took away NL rules and gave freewill over marks, so Im going to use them to turn them back into NLs the best I can.

Ok w40k being about the games . I get that . w40k being about paiting , well maybe for some people , but I still get that. w40k being there for the models and converting , true for a very very small group , but again I get that. But w40k being about imagination ? :blush: m8 . you want to tell me , that when you play , you have visions in your head ? how do you concentrate on the rules and the game , while doing that ?

 

 

as the free will goes . if Gw takes away rules for a list or army and its impossible to play with it in a new dex or edition , then the list is no longer played . It doesnt exist simple as that . If you want to play and want power , dont kid yourself with saying your DP is uber speedy or tough . No m8 your playing a by the book BL list just like everybody else who doesnt play a zerker or pm LR rush.

[Night Lord Dred]

There is so much wrong with your post its mind numbing.

 

First off, you clearly know Im referring to the old codex - I clearly said the word "before". Dont take your crusade against this codex out on me. Harder to hit is represented by the mark of nurgle. It is ultimately harder to kill the unit, which is what Night Lords are based around - minimizing casualties by being stealthy and fast.

 

Second, quite frankly, I dont give a rats ass if you dont think Im playing NLs. With the current codex there are no special rules. I think its worse to leave them unupgraded to get slaughtered or have raptors (their specialty) be the same as everyone else than it is to give them an icon (which, by the way can be justified in NL fluff a lot easier than raptors being basic assault marines).

 

Third, the game is ALL about imagination when it comes to fluff, and when it comes to actually playing the game. These are just tiny army men toys, you realize that right? They dont actually move and shoot. The rules themselves incorporate imagination into it, even in basic rules such as wounding, armour saves and sweeping advances. To say this game doesnt incorporate imagination is just insane. I actually cant believe someone could say that...mind boggling.

[MRCHAOS]

I think some people treat this game too much like Chess or some other game like that, that you can win by making the right moves.

W40K is played with DICE!!!!! No matter how much mathhammer you do, or what ever uber list you come up with it all roles down to the DICE gods in the end!

So make your Army's how ever you like them I say :P

[incinerator950]

Hey Night Lord and Jeske, quit bickering.

 

As a statement, I agree, Word Bearers are totally culled to Undivided, they even go so far as to hunt down deserters and execute them, and they don't tolerate other followers of single patrons.

 

As for Nightlords, it would be more fluffy for them not to use Marks, unless you're going for the "lol Chaos is a weapon, lets use it and summon demons and :o"

 

Yes, make your army however you see fit.

[Uprising]

At the end of the day and all the good and bad advice has been given,(mostly good here) the player has to remember it his/her army for them to do whatever they want with it. So do whatever you enjoy most.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Tell me how the icon of khorne doesnt stack up to reroll LD. Last I check, the glory icon is compedetive because of its low cost and compedetive standpoint while in squads large enough to take casualties and not lose their few high worth models. (The 2 special gunners and the champ)

 

With regular CSM, you are better off taking khorne berserkers than icon of khorne marines. If you are taking vanilla marines over berserkers, its for the special weapons. If you are packing double meltas, you want to be shooting armor. If you have double plasma, you arn't assaulting. In both situations the icon of khorne is going to be wasted for the most part as it is a CC upgrade. And while CC is a strength of vanilla marines, in both those loadouts above it is your secondary concern. Chaos glory helps a tank hunting melta squad or shooting plasma squad more, and costs less.

 

Chaos glory is also hardly useless in an assault. If i'm playing you and i see a squad without that re-roll, i know exactly what to go force leadership and pinning tests on. Icon of Khorne marines are decent in CC sure, but they are still going to take nasty losses and gun run off the board if a proper CC specialist squad assaults them.

 

The situations where icon of khorne might be worth taking do exist. Double flamer icon of khorne squads are pretty brutal for killing hordes. But berserkers arn't exactly bad at killing hordes either, and they perform better in other situations. Unless you know you are fighting a horde list and are building specifically against it (this won't be allowed in any competitive setting) berserkers are still better.

 

You are right about raptors though. They are pretty sweet with icon of khorne. But, raptors themselves are not a competitive unit. Their most competitive form is 5 man double melta tank hunting squads (which are normally outperformed by termicide) and these obviously don't want MoK.

[the jeske]

There is so much wrong with your post its mind numbing.

WB dont do cult , dont dedict themselfs to single chaos gods . check . your army uses cult/marks . check again. ergo it cant be WB . I failt to see , where I am wrong.

 

Third, the game is ALL about imagination when it comes to fluff, and when it comes to actually playing the game

when the game is played , its about tactics , list building , proper use of meta choices something that could be called gaming skills. Fluff also doesnt have anything to do with imagination .official fluff is writen down[even if it is retconed ] . there is no "hard to hit" or "very fast" mark , but there is a mark of nurgle and mark of slanesh . and what does the fluff say about being marked and WB ? it says its a no go . WB dont dedict themselfs to single gods , in fact they see it as heresy.

 

 

 

I think its worse to leave them unupgraded to get slaughtered or have raptors (their specialty) be the same as everyone else than it is to give them an icon (which, by the way can be justified in NL fluff a lot easier than raptors being basic assault marines).

please and that why its better to play a BL list and pretend [ok this is probablly the time for that imagination thing] you play WB. In fact I think thats what it is in the end . You imagine that you play WB , when actually your playing with a run of the mill BL list.

What considering a lot of stuff makes me lol.

[Corpse.]

Tell me how the icon of khorne doesnt stack up to reroll LD. Last I check, the glory icon is compedetive because of its low cost and compedetive standpoint while in squads large enough to take casualties and not lose their few high worth models. (The 2 special gunners and the champ)

 

With regular CSM, you are better off taking khorne berserkers than icon of khorne marines. If you are taking vanilla marines over berserkers, its for the special weapons. If you are packing double meltas, you want to be shooting armor. If you have double plasma, you arn't assaulting. In both situations the icon of khorne is going to be wasted for the most part as it is a CC upgrade. And while CC is a strength of vanilla marines, in both those loadouts above it is your secondary concern. Chaos glory helps a tank hunting melta squad or shooting plasma squad more, and costs less.

 

Chaos glory is also hardly useless in an assault. If i'm playing you and i see a squad without that re-roll, i know exactly what to go force leadership and pinning tests on. Icon of Khorne marines are decent in CC sure, but they are still going to take nasty losses and gun run off the board if a proper CC specialist squad assaults them.

 

The situations where icon of khorne might be worth taking do exist. Double flamer icon of khorne squads are pretty brutal for killing hordes. But berserkers arn't exactly bad at killing hordes either, and they perform better in other situations. Unless you know you are fighting a horde list and are building specifically against it (this won't be allowed in any competitive setting) berserkers are still better.

 

You are right about raptors though. They are pretty sweet with icon of khorne. But, raptors themselves are not a competitive unit. Their most competitive form is 5 man double melta tank hunting squads (which are normally outperformed by termicide) and these obviously don't want MoK.

 

 

Well I didnt say it was vastly superior and I didnt cover all what the glory icon does, I was just pointing out usefulness of the icon. I much prefer khorne havocs with flamers/meltas (+ the combi flamer on champ) when I do consider the khorne icon basic marines with special guns. I take squads of marines as 5's with champ and special gun, 10's for the means of something to fill, often taking a glory icon and having their rhino keep them covered and often I keep my plasma guns for my plague marines. I felt out what I like already, and its a bit compedetive in the choices where things fall into the units I prefer.

 

Still doesnt mean that the Khorne icon is useless, and in some cases a large unit of 20 marines with an icon of tzeentch covering a shooty army gunline granting 4+ cover saves to all the units behind them (and with so many guys granting obscure saves to their vehicles). Its all about composition, trial and error, and preferences with combinations.

 

I rise to defend things I think has been unfairly scrutinied(sp?) where an inexperienced player may take it to heart without knowing both the good and bad side when reading a persons critisism on the subject. (Even if taken differently than intended)

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Tell me how the icon of khorne doesnt stack up to reroll LD. Last I check, the glory icon is compedetive because of its low cost and compedetive standpoint while in squads large enough to take casualties and not lose their few high worth models. (The 2 special gunners and the champ)

 

With regular CSM, you are better off taking khorne berserkers than icon of khorne marines. If you are taking vanilla marines over berserkers, its for the special weapons. If you are packing double meltas, you want to be shooting armor. If you have double plasma, you arn't assaulting. In both situations the icon of khorne is going to be wasted for the most part as it is a CC upgrade. And while CC is a strength of vanilla marines, in both those loadouts above it is your secondary concern. Chaos glory helps a tank hunting melta squad or shooting plasma squad more, and costs less.

 

Chaos glory is also hardly useless in an assault. If i'm playing you and i see a squad without that re-roll, i know exactly what to go force leadership and pinning tests on. Icon of Khorne marines are decent in CC sure, but they are still going to take nasty losses and gun run off the board if a proper CC specialist squad assaults them.

 

The situations where icon of khorne might be worth taking do exist. Double flamer icon of khorne squads are pretty brutal for killing hordes. But berserkers arn't exactly bad at killing hordes either, and they perform better in other situations. Unless you know you are fighting a horde list and are building specifically against it (this won't be allowed in any competitive setting) berserkers are still better.

 

You are right about raptors though. They are pretty sweet with icon of khorne. But, raptors themselves are not a competitive unit. Their most competitive form is 5 man double melta tank hunting squads (which are normally outperformed by termicide) and these obviously don't want MoK.

 

 

Well I didnt say it was vastly superior and I didnt cover all what the glory icon does, I was just pointing out usefulness of the icon. I much prefer khorne havocs with flamers/meltas (+ the combi flamer on champ) when I do consider the khorne icon basic marines with special guns. I take squads of marines as 5's with champ and special gun, 10's for the means of something to fill, often taking a glory icon and having their rhino keep them covered and often I keep my plasma guns for my plague marines. I felt out what I like already, and its a bit compedetive in the choices where things fall into the units I prefer.

 

Still doesnt mean that the Khorne icon is useless, and in some cases a large unit of 20 marines with an icon of tzeentch covering a shooty army gunline granting 4+ cover saves to all the units behind them (and with so many guys granting obscure saves to their vehicles). Its all about composition, trial and error, and preferences with combinations.

 

I rise to defend things I think has been unfairly scrutinied(sp?) where an inexperienced player may take it to heart without knowing both the good and bad side when reading a persons critisism on the subject. (Even if taken differently than intended)

 

I never said they were useless, i said they weren't competitive :P

 

Icon of Khorne certainy does have its uses and if this thread was asking for general advice i would have mentioned them. But it is asking about competitive choices.

[Corpse.]

Understood, to each their own, I say IoK is up there with IoG.