So what CAN the we induct from the Imperial Guard now?

[Panzerkopf]

Hello friends, I haven't been by in a while since starting Flames of War but I still have love for 40k and a slew of questions.

You probably all know this but there's a big kerfluffle now over what can be taken as inducted troops from the new Guard codex since their whole structure was reorganized so heavily. For instance, The Leman Russ battle tank as a Heavy Support slot no longer exists, supplanted by tank squadrons with different variants falling under one slot. Armored Fist squads also don't exist anymore and Platoons have changed as well, consisting now of several independent Troop choices coalesced into one. There are other changes and my previous examples may not be fully accurate since I don't own the new codex, but the problem remains with the new changes, it's not entirely clear what units we are and aren't allowed to take anymore and GW has so far failed to provide guidance towards that end. If anyone can clarify this issue at all it would be greatly appreciated.

[Lord_Zyplon]

Got both Codicies (bananas? ;)) open, I'll start with Troops.

 

Imperial Guard Infantry Platoon. Excellent now, as the "Platoon" entry in the IG Codex includes normal squads, HW squads, Commissars, Conscripts, Orders from the PCS, Chimeras for all... it's win.

Armored Fist Squad. Doesn't exist anymore, so just ignore this one.

 

Fast Attack.

0-1 Rough Rider Squadron. Simple, just like it always was.

0-1 Sentinel Squadron. This is a bit tough. Some people might RAW you, as there's no "Sentinel Squadron" per se, just "Armored Sentinel Squadron" and "Scout Sentinel Squadron." Barring that, it's a safe bet to take Scout Sentinels - it's the same unit as before, but with Scout and Move THrough Cover, and without the option to enclose the crew compartment. Armored Sentinels are completely new, so it's understandable if people object to them.

 

Heavy Support.

0-1 Leman Russ Battle Tank. Ok, this is where all the arguing is. The safe bet is to take one, single, standard LRBT - just like you had bought it from 3rd Ed. Guard, but with all the new bells and whistles that it comes with in the new Codex.

The two middle-ground options are One Tank, any variant, and a whole Squadron, standard LRBT.

The most liberal option (that most people will disagree with) is whole Squadron, any variant.

 

 

Edited for clarity.

[Justicar Valius]

Whenever i play i play by ard boyz rules...

 

Which means:

 

Infantry platoon, Veteran squad

0-1 Rough riders, 0-1 Armoured OR scout sentinel squadron

0-1 Russ squadron (any variants allowed)

 

But the guy above me has it right as far as RAW goes...

BUT You gotta love the ard boyz :D

 

I still get some people saying i can't... :) they shall be the first to go when i rise to power :P

[Polaris]

Id go by Ard boyz as well....

 

Tucker max is a genius by the way ; )

[DinoDoc]

There are other changes and my previous examples may not be fully accurate since I don't own the new codex, but the problem remains with the new changes, it's not entirely clear what units we are and aren't allowed to take anymore and GW has so far failed to provide guidance towards that end. If anyone can clarify this issue at all it would be greatly appreciated.

Troops:

Infantry Platoon (good to go)

Armoured Fist squad (doesn't exist = no go)

 

Fast Attack:

Rough Riders (good to go)

Sentinel Squadron (doesn't exist = no go)

 

Heavy Support:

0-1 Leman Russ Battle Tank (doesn't exist = no go)

 

That's purely from RAW.

[Rathnard]

Heavy Support:

0-1 Leman Russ Battle Tank (doesn't exist = no go)

 

That's purely from RAW.

I have to disagree on this part. The Leman Russ battle tank still exists, name and all, just not as a unit entry in it's own right. Thus by RAW you'd be able to take a single LRBT, just so long as it's not a variant that would alter the name.

 

Sentinel Squadron (doesn't exist = no go)

Just playing devils advocate here, but couldn't you say that but the armoured and scout varieties both still count as 'sentinel squadrons'? Basically the 'armoured' and 'scout' subtypes are part of the 'sentinel squadron' supertype.

[DinoDoc]

Heavy Support:

0-1 Leman Russ Battle Tank (doesn't exist = no go)

 

That's purely from RAW.

I have to disagree on this part. The Leman Russ battle tank still exists, name and all, just not as a unit entry in it's own right.

Do you see the contradiction inherent in that sentence? If it doesn't exist as a unit entry, how can you induct it?

[Narthecium]

The Leman Russ exists however is not available to Imperial Guard as it was before. That does not mean however that the individual tanks within the squadron do not have their own stats, own weapons, and exist entirely as individual vehicles that are simply corraled into a singular squadron. So when it says 0-1 leman russ, it's saying "Hey, you can get one of these tanks out of this squadron."

 

Barring agreeing with that interpretation, I don't see anything wrong with giving the DH one singular leman russ. They're hurting enough as it is.

[DinoDoc]

So when it says 0-1 leman russ, it's saying "Hey, you can get one of these tanks out of this squadron."

No, it's not unless you can show me where in the IG Army list that it says Leman Russ Battle Tank. As it is, I can only find an entry for something called a Leman Russ Squadron.

They're hurting enough as it is.

Do you know how awesome Infantry platoons are?

[Narthecium]

Okay, so Leman Russ Squadrons are not comprised of Leman Russ Tanks. Tactical marine squads are not comprised of tactical marines. Sentinel squadrons probably don't have any sentinels in them, and assault marine squads don't have assault marines. My bad.

[DinoDoc]

Okay, so Leman Russ Squadrons are not comprised of Leman Russ Tanks. Tactical marine squads are not comprised of tactical marines. Sentinel squadrons probably don't have any sentinels in them, and assault marine squads don't have assault marines. My bad.

Fact 1) The Ordo codices list options for Allied Space Marines or Inducted IG.

 

Fact 2) The Ordo codices tell you to refer to the respective parent codices for rules regarding the listed options.

 

Fact 3) One of these options is listed as a 0-1 Leman Russ Battle Tank and tells you to refer to the IG codex for rules regarding this.

 

Fact 4) This option no longer appears in the IG army list.

 

To me this chain of logic leads to the conclusion that you can't take the Leman Russ Battle Tank.

[Rangeltoft]

On both page 48 and page 102 in the new guard dex, there is a unit type namned: Leman Russ Battle Tank, all the rules are there. So why wouldnt the ordos be able to induct one?

 

Sure it CAN be part of a squadron, but nothing forces you to take it as a squadron.

[DinoDoc]

Is it in the Army List as a seperate entry?

[the jeske]

Okay, so Leman Russ Squadrons are not comprised of Leman Russ Tanks. Tactical marine squads are not comprised of tactical marines. Sentinel squadrons probably don't have any sentinels in them, and assault marine squads don't have assault marines. My bad.

 

 

its not that m8. yes LR do exist , but they dont exist as a choice other then squadron. BY RAW you can induct a LR tank , such an option does not exist in the IG dex , there is a LR squadron different name , means different choice . rules dont check fluff remember . yes it does end up with strange situations like an apothecary in a sm command squad not being a veteran etc , but thats the life .

 

 

So why wouldnt the ordos be able to induct one?

because the rules say you have to look and find a choice in the IG codex named "LR tank" and it doesnt exist . [there is the squadron] and if the options does not exist you cant take it .

[number6]

I don't think it's that cut and dried, the jeske. I've seen arguments all over the place, and frankly RAW can be used on all sides to support their views. To choose one view over another is pure arbitrariness.

 

From the point of view of rules intentions and sportsmanship, it is patently ridiculous to insist that the Inquisition armies can no longer induct leman russ battle tanks at all. The only reasonable bone of contention should be:

 

* can you get a squadron or just the one tank?

* can you take any variant or just the basic battle tank?

 

Personally, I am of the opinion that GW gave us the "spirit of the rules" allowed in their 2009 'Ard Boyz FAQ. It's as reasonable a decision as any. If it was good enough for an official GW-sanctioned event, it ought to be good enough for beer-n-pretzels play, too.

 

It does irk me that they would go through the effort to create a FAQ like that but not bother to update the Inquisition FAQs, too. :P That's just inexcusable laziness.

[DinoDoc]

From the point of view of rules intentions and sportsmanship, it is patently ridiculous to insist that the Inquisition armies can no longer induct leman russ battle tanks at all.

I don't see how this gets us around the fact that the Ordo rules direct you to the IG codex to find an entry in the IG Army List called a Leman Russ Battle Tank, an entry that no longer exists in the IG Army List. This is the same reason you can't induct armoured fist squads anymore either.

Personally, I am of the opinion that GW gave us the "spirit of the rules" allowed in their 2009 'Ard Boyz FAQ.

I'd be inclined to believe that if it wasn't the Sales department that came up with that document instead of the Rules people never seeing it. It's as reasonable a decision as any. If it was good enough for an official GW-sanctioned event, it ought to be good enough for beer-n-pretzels play, too.

That's just inexcusable laziness.

I'l agree with you wholeheartedly here.

[Panzerkopf]

I wish GW would just go under already and get bought up by people who can actually run it without making me want to kick small primates.

[the jeske]

Personally, I am of the opinion that GW gave us the "spirit of the rules" allowed in their 2009 'Ard Boyz FAQ. It's as reasonable a decision as any. If it was good enough for an official GW-sanctioned event, it ought to be good enough for beer-n-pretzels play, too.

but you know HB is a US only tournament and US FAQs were hmm how to say nicelly... not well accapted in europe [again not counting UK , which had crazy stuff like FW allowed for tournaments etc]. As the RAW thing goes . Actually the way it is now [and am speaking about the rules here] its impossible to have any form of lemman russ in a WH/DH list.

I wish GW would just go under already and get bought up by people who can actually run it without making me want to kick small primates.

well you know its the official GW policy . they care about the new people who buy the fresh new dex and new models [+most of them dont even know stuff like sob or GK exist] . for GW old stuff[and for them even DA are old , considering after 1 year of playing your a vet for GW] is unimportant . If someone wants to play DA's or GK he will buy/use the dex the way it is no matter what [well at least GW thinks that way] . that is why they give use "and if your opponent allows do X" crap . is it bad for game play ? yeah , but as GW people said since the begining of the company they sell models first and rules second.

[boreas]

By RAW: "All units are taken exactly as they appear in the Codex: Space Marine or the Codex: Imperial Guard and May only use the options and upgrades listed there." Note, not the list.

 

IG codex, p. 48 (bottom) Leman Russ Battle Tank.

 

Ok, It's not in the list and a distinct entry, but by RAW, you only need it to be in the codex. So I don't think Dinodoc has a valid point about not inducting a LRBT at all. Now, what are the options and ugrades for a LRBT? Unfortunately for the variant lovers, they are not "options or upgrade" of the LRBT. You can still equip it with fancy Plasma cannon sponsons, though!

 

As for sentinels: they are listed at p.45. It's not as clear-cut as for the LRBT, though, altough I tend to see it in an inclusive way: When I say human being, could you argue that an African human being is not a human being? Still, this one is possibly more a matter of opinion with RAW impossible to apply.

 

Phil

[Lord Rao]

I am not a torunament player, and, having read this thread, don't think I can contribute anything new.

 

Having said that, I think we've basically seen what there is to say on this matter, and people are basically starting to repeat themselves, or each other. This is the way of threads like this on every forum.

 

The sad fact is that, until GW comes out with some (semi-)official document (that's invariably riddled with loopholes), this is the best it's ever going to get.

So, the only solution is to check the rules with your opponent.

I am in the luxury position that I play the same group of people regularly, and can hence resort to House Rules. Tournament players can resort to the Tournament-specific rules, and guys who just show up at random at games clubs will have to check with each and every opponent each and every time they play (unfortunate as it is).

 

Personally, I don't see the new IG dex wording as being a potential problem for anyone but the most contentious power gamers, who will do anything to dissuade their opponents from fielding anything they believe will give them an edge - i.e. any two remotely friendly/civil gamers should be able to work it out between them in minutes.

But I realise I am making a blatant generalisation here, and none of you should take it personally (I certainly don't want this thread to devolve into name-calling). You guys are just sharing your views on this thread, which is really the first step to achieving any consensus.

 

 

LR

[boreas]

^

 

Voice of reason!

 

Phil

[My_Craft_is_Death]

Troops:

Infantry Platoon (good to go)

Armoured Fist squad (doesn't exist = no go)

 

Fast Attack:

Rough Riders (good to go)

Sentinel Squadron (doesn't exist = no go)

 

Heavy Support:

0-1 Leman Russ Battle Tank (doesn't exist = no go)

 

That's purely from RAW.

Obviously, the IG options for a Daemonhunter army have changed enough in the new IG codex that a FAQ should have been done as a matter of course, and the fact that GW didn't do it is just one more example of their annoying lack of support of existing players. :D

 

Still, that asside, the intention of the DH codex was obviously that a DH army could induct IG Infantry, Sentinels, and Leman Russ tanks using the same orgaization presented in the then existing IG codex. Now, ignoring the issue of nit-picky RAW arguments, tournaments, etc, would any of you actually refuse to game with a DH player who brought an inducted Scout Sentinel Sqaudron? Or for that matter an inducted Leman Russ squadron? The DH list has never been a particularly powerful army, and I don't think any of us could honestly argue that the 'ard Boyz interperetation of the way the DH list should interact with the new IG codex is actually broken or over powered. Can we?

 

What I am asking is, are we just arguing rules minutia here (a favorite internet passtime, I will admit) or do the RAW crowd actually think the DH should not be able to induct Sentinels or LRBTs any more just because of minor changes in the oranization of the new IG codex? :(

[maturin]

Here's another way of looking at the Leman Russ Tank/Squadron question:

 

When you face an IG opponent using a single Leman Russ, do you force him to play it using squadron rules (ie destroyed with an immobilized result, etc.)? After all, his codex says he can only take a LR Squadron...

 

If not, then that's not a Leman Russ Squadron, it's a single LRBT. Therefore the IG could induct it.

 

:D

 

(I agree in general I'd discuss with my opponent beforehand, and luckily I have very reasonable opponents in the area).

[number6]

When you face an IG opponent using a single Leman Russ, do you force him to play it using squadron rules (ie destroyed with an immobilized result, etc.)? After all, his codex says he can only take a LR Squadron...

A single vehicle in a squadron is no longer subject to any of the vehicular squadron rules. It's just a single vehicle no different than any other.

[Hellbreaker]

It's just a single vehicle no different than any other.

 

*Clumsy entry*

 

Logic kicks in! Since it's alone and very VERY single(Poor unloved tank) it's no longer a squadron but rather a single Leman russ, which we can induct. <See 0-1 Leman russ battle tank aka Single Leman russ>

 

*Dramatic music plays*

 

Edit - For the sake of your mind.

 

Cheers!