BC with LC

[Adeptus Templar]

Correct me if I get this wrong , but a BC with Lightning claws would have an Attack of 4 correct? So his stats would be:

 

WS-----BS----S----T----W----I----A----Ld-----Sv

<DELETED BY THE INQUISITION>

[SamaNagol]

Wounding on 2s for free >>>> re-rolling to wound at S4

 

If you want an extra attack, buy him a storm shield.

[Adeptus Templar]

I am modding him after Chaplain Durendin from the GK book.

[SamaNagol]

He had 'Nemesis' Lightning Claws. They would therefor work exactly the same as a normal NFW. Feel free to model him with a pair of LCs with a Storm Bolter built into the back of one of them. And just let your opponent know.

 

Paying for a pair of LC on a GKT is a complete waste of points.

[Eddie Orlock]

Wounding on 2s for free >>>> re-rolling to wound at S4

 

If you want an extra attack, buy him a storm shield.

We've been over this. The Storm Shield thing doesn't work.

[Adeptus Templar]

He had 'Nemesis' Lightning Claws. They would therefor work exactly the same as a normal NFW. Feel free to model him with a pair of LCs with a Storm Bolter built into the back of one of them. And just let your opponent know.

 

Paying for a pair of LC on a GKT is a complete waste of points.

Ok that sounds way better then. I wasn't sure if they were 'Nemesis' or not, but yeah I can see how paying for LC on a GKT are not worth it.

 

Wounding on 2s for free >>>> re-rolling to wound at S4

 

If you want an extra attack, buy him a storm shield.

We've been over this. The Storm Shield thing doesn't work.

 

Yeah I figured that that wouldn't work.

[SamaNagol]

Wounding on 2s for free >>>> re-rolling to wound at S4

 

If you want an extra attack, buy him a storm shield.

We've been over this. The Storm Shield thing doesn't work.

 

* A DH Storm Shield counts as an extra CCW even though it is not considered a weapon (DH p. 16). It might therefore grant an additional attack. However, the rules concerning THs in the BBB p. 42 explicitly state that a model must have two THs to gain a bonus attack. While the SS counts as a CCW, it is not a TH and thus does not grant a bonus attack. A SM Storm Shield does not grant a bonus attack.

 

Since when did you need to buy 2 NFW to get an extra attack? If a Storm Shield counts as an extra CCW, it therefor benefits an extra attack to someone who is not using a Special Weapon.

[Hellbreaker]

Since when did you need to buy 2 NFW to get an extra attack? If a Storm Shield counts as an extra CCW, it therefor benefits an extra attack to someone who is not using a Special Weapon.

 

From what I understood when I read the rulebook you need 2 identical copies of the same weapon(that changes the statline) to get an additional attack...

 

Weapons like powerfists and thunderhammers... NFWs change the statline too, so they'll need 2 copies to get an extra attack, and since I've never seen a model with 2 NFWs I'm gonna assume you can't have 2...

 

Too find a good copy of this, look at the quote you just posted. ^_^

 

Cheers!

[Dezartfox]

The FAQ says that Nemesis Force Weapons are a Single Handed Weapon, (it was asked it they were one or two handed). There's no mention anywhere of a nemesis force weapon counting as "special weapon".

 

Also if what your saying is true, grey knights will only ever have ONE attack because of true grit. They can't gain an attack for two weapons or an attack for charging.

[SamaNagol]

Page 42:

 

A normal and a special weapon:

These models gain one additional attack. All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, benefit from the special weapon's bonuses.

 

Power Fists, Thunder Hammers and Lightning Claws are an exception to this. Only a second Power Fist, Thunder Hammer or Lightning Claw can confer a bonus attack to a model equipped with one of these weapons.

 

So yes, a NFW and a Storm Shield would confer 1 additional attack. All at the relevant profile of the corresponding NFW level.

[Dezartfox]

Thankyou :D

 

Pg 37 also states what you need to gain an additional attack. So despite the shield not being a weapon, it's still a one handed weapon ^_^

[Eddie Orlock]

:D

Seriously, this bull again?

 

The shield provides a bonus to certain saves, ergo, it's a special weapon, and this falls under the category of wielding two different special weapons. No extra attacks.

 

They do gain the extra attack for stormbolters as their codex expressly states that they do on page eight under 'True Grit'

[JamesI]

:D

Seriously, this bull again?

 

The shield provides a bonus to certain saves, ergo, it's a special weapon, and this falls under the category of wielding two different special weapons. No extra attacks.

 

They do gain the extra attack for stormbolters as their codex expressly states that they do on page eight under 'True Grit'

The codex expressly states that True Grit is only for Power Armored Grey Knights.

[SamaNagol]

Page 42:

 

SPECIAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS

 

These include more complex and powerful weapons that enhance the wielder's combat skills and confer bonuses, and sometimes penalties, to the models using them.

 

A Storm Shield does confer a bonus to the model using it, however it does not enhance the wielder's combat skill. Therefor it does not meet the 'and' requirement of the above statement. It is therefor a normal close combat weapon.

[Eddie Orlock]

A Storm Shield does confer a bonus to the model using it, however it does not enhance the wielder's combat skill. Therefor it does not meet the 'and' requirement of the above statement. It is therefor a normal close combat weapon.

Define: 'Enhance the Wielder's Combat Skills'. Improve the models performance in combat? I'd argue that increasing the characters durability against power weapons enhances its combat skill

 

Do Powerswords 'Enhance the Wielder's Combat Skills'? They don't provide a stat bonus, all they do is ignore armour saves, but are expressly listed as 'Special' weapons.

 

How about Lightning Claws? They don't provide a stat bonus, all they do is ignore armour saves and re-roll to wound, but are expressly listed as 'Special' weapons.

 

How about Force Weapons? They don't provide a stat bonus, all they do is ignore armour saves and allow for a psychic power, but are expressly listed as 'Special' weapons.

 

Glad that no-one's even tried the 'Nothing says the Nemesis Weapons are 'Special' approach here'.

 

There are a lot of things in the game that would fail the conditions your proposing, that compel the conclusion that those conditions are false.

[SamaNagol]

Ignoring armour saves is listed in the 'Special Close Combat Weapons' section. Ergo weapons which count as a Power Weapon are Special Close Combat Weapons.

 

Lightning Claws are Power Weapons. Force Weapons are Power Weapons. Aside from the fact they are both implicitly listed under 'Special Close Combat Weapons'.

 

'Counts as an extra Close Combat Weapon' is not listed anywhere under the list of 'Special Close Combat Weapons'. Neither is any mention of providing the attacker with a saving throw.

 

Seeing as there is an inclusive list in the rule book as to what constitutes the abilities considered 'special', a Storm Shield is not a 'Special Weapon' as defined by the BRB.

 

I would be very much interested in seeing you list any further weapons which do not meet both of those above quoted criteria, or are not implicitly listed in the list of Special Weapons in the BRB, whilst being ambiguous in their classification.

 

I await your response.

[Eddie Orlock]

'Counts as an extra Close Combat Weapon' is not listed anywhere under the list of 'Special Close Combat Weapons'. Neither is any mention of providing the attacker with a saving throw.

Given that your case is based on pedantry, it would behove you to get the terms right, and not attempt to confuse the issue. It does not count as 'an extra Close Combat Weapon'. Note four only states that it 'counts as a 'Single Handed Weapon'.

Seeing as there is an inclusive list in the rule book as to what constitutes the abilities considered 'special', a Storm Shield is not a 'Special Weapon' as defined by the BRB.

I've added emphasis to a key term, inclusive. I'll thank you for agreeing that this isn't an exclusive or exhaustive list. The book only provides examples of special weapons I'll posit that any ability with any impact on close combat makes the weapon special. Including enhancing saves.

I would be very much interested in seeing you list any further weapons which do not meet both of those above quoted criteria, or are not implicitly listed in the list of Special Weapons in the BRB, whilst being ambiguous in their classification.

 

I await your response.

I believe the word you were looking for there was explicitly.

 

You still have not defined the phrase 'Enhance the Wielder's Combat Skills'.

 

Regardless, I'll refer to the sister codex to the book in question and cite 'Mancatchers'. A two handed weapon whose only effect is to limit the number of attacks coming from hostile figures. From Codex: Eldar, Wraithblades. Weapons that do no inherently negate saves that only allow the re-rolling of misses in close combat. This is, of course, not an exhaustive list, only a sampling of those I have close at hand.

 

In the rule book, the definition of 'Normal Weapon' is much more restrictive. Only those arms that 'do not confer any particular bonus to the model using them' qualify. An improved invulnerable save is most certainly a bonus and thus excludes the storm shield from this classification. As there are only two broad classes of close combat implement in the game, namely 'Normal' and 'Special', Deamon Hunter Stormshields must thusly fit into the latter.

[SamaNagol]

You still have not defined the phrase 'Enhance the Wielder's Combat Skills'.

 

Anything which increases their effectiveness when attacking in combat. 'An extra CCW' was inaccurate, you are correct. However they do become an extra CCW when used with any other single handed CCW. My apologies for the incorrect description. And yes, you are again correct, its been a long day, I meant explicitly. lol

 

Regardless, I'll refer to the sister codex to the book in question and cite 'Mancatchers'. A two handed weapon whose only effect is to limit the number of attacks coming from hostile figures.

 

Bolded the part where the weapon type is classified. Same as Big Choppas. 2 handed weapons cannot be used in conjunction with another weapon so their status as normal or special is never needed to be defined. I do not have the Eldar dex to hand to respond to the Wraithblade. Not to be a pedant, but did you mean Witchblades or Wraithswords?

 

In the rule book, the definition of 'Normal Weapon' is much more restrictive. Only those arms that 'do not confer any particular bonus to the model using them' qualify. An improved invulnerable save is most certainly a bonus and thus excludes the storm shield from this classification. As there are only two broad classes of close combat implement in the game, namely 'Normal' and 'Special', Deamon Hunter Stormshields must thusly fit into the latter.

 

Our point of contention is whether conferring a save counts as a bonus. I would say that it does not in terms of combat effectiveness. I feel this is an issue which is therefor very much grey and would need answering from an official standpoint. Either that or I would have to pay my solicitor £85 to spend an hour deciding on the wording. lol

[Dilgar]

Check this discussion for the Storm shield issue:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=172863

 

And PLEASE read the hole thing as there are some good arguments on both interpetations! I stand for my (last posts) words. Summa summarum U can swing it both ways :huh:

[Eddie Orlock]

In the rule book, the definition of 'Normal Weapon' is much more restrictive. Only those arms that 'do not confer any particular bonus to the model using them' qualify. An improved invulnerable save is most certainly a bonus and thus excludes the storm shield from this classification. As there are only two broad classes of close combat implement in the game, namely 'Normal' and 'Special', Deamon Hunter Stormshields must thusly fit into the latter.

Our point of contention is whether conferring a save counts as a bonus. I would say that it does not in terms of combat effectiveness. I feel this is an issue which is therefor very much grey and would need answering from an official standpoint. Either that or I would have to pay my solicitor £85 to spend an hour deciding on the wording. lol

Offensive effectiveness, or overall effectiveness. Regardless, by using sterling in your answer pretty much makes the case purely academic. There is almost no chance I'll ever play you here.

 

Check this discussion for the Storm shield issue:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=172863

I tip my hat to you, sir.

 

I should have linked back to this in the beginning.

 

While we're at this, perhaps someone in power could amend the sticky at the top of the page to reflect our recent discussions, specifically, to highlight the issue as to whether the Nemesis/Shield combo works, or otherwise, and a brief rundown of the issues (ie. specialness or not)

[SamaNagol]

In the end the entirety of the debate comes down to whether the Storm Shield counts as a special weapon or a normal weapon. And that is not made clear at all by the wording.

 

Witchblades are definitely special weapons. They are listed. So are Power Weapons, Power Fists, Thunder Hammers and Lightning Claws. Nothing is listed which increases the model's defensive stats, only those attacking. And whilst that does not prove entirely that a weapon which confers an invulnerable save does not count as a Special Weapon because that particular bonus is not listed beneath the Special Weapons entry, I would say it implies that it is not a Special Weapon.

 

And implies is unfortunately not good enough when it comes to RAW.

[Dilgar]

In the rule book, the definition of 'Normal Weapon' is much more restrictive. Only those arms that 'do not confer any particular bonus to the model using them' qualify. An improved invulnerable save is most certainly a bonus and thus excludes the storm shield from this classification. As there are only two broad classes of close combat implement in the game, namely 'Normal' and 'Special', Deamon Hunter Stormshields must thusly fit into the latter.

Our point of contention is whether conferring a save counts as a bonus. I would say that it does not in terms of combat effectiveness. I feel this is an issue which is therefor very much grey and would need answering from an official standpoint. Either that or I would have to pay my solicitor £85 to spend an hour deciding on the wording. lol

Offensive effectiveness, or overall effectiveness. Regardless, by using sterling in your answer pretty much makes the case purely academic. There is almost no chance I'll ever play you here.

 

Check this discussion for the Storm shield issue:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=172863

I tip my hat to you, sir.

 

I should have linked back to this in the beginning.

 

While we're at this, perhaps someone in power could amend the sticky at the top of the page to reflect our recent discussions, specifically, to highlight the issue as to whether the Nemesis/Shield combo works, or otherwise, and a brief rundown of the issues (ie. specialness or not)

 

 

I wrote about it in the "Gotcha" thread, but it seems it hasn´t "moved on"...

 

EDIT: Or did I wrote about it...couldn´t seem to find it...I must be getting old(23) :D

[Eddie Orlock]

And whilst that does not prove entirely that a weapon which confers an invulnerable save does not count as a Special Weapon because that particular bonus is not listed beneath the Special Weapons entry, I would say it implies that it is not a Special Weapon.

 

And implies is unfortunately not good enough when it comes to RAW.

I would counter the implication that it is not a special weapon by citing the precedent of every other storm shield ever printed not granting additional attacks, from the original incarnation in Rogue Trader, up until the current Marine codex, establishing that it is not designer intent that they grant extra attacks, and thus rule arguments should arranged with this in mind. Whether this is by cludging it as a 'Special Weapon' or by mearly accepting that it is a 'Weapon' for equipment selection only as was the precedent from the original third ed. marine dex onward until the current marine dex, where I'll note that it does replace a captains weapon, but is not a weapon itself.

 

This is naturally not a RAW argument, but a 40k design philosophy one.

 

This is similar to the doozy of an argument I concocted wherein squads couldn't join or leave characters, only characters could do so to squads to prevent 'daisy chaining' of characters to move them faster than their compatriots and permit a unit to move faster than was intended, and to preserve the intent of a clause of the independent character rules. In essence the language is written with the character being the active agent.

[SamaNagol]

No other Storm Shield in history has been said to count as a single handed weapon though.

 

It's all going round in circles though, I cannot see a way of proving it either way.

[Krieghammer]

I have not read this whole thread, so if a mod feels like my input is irelevant feel free to delete it.

 

My point is, a Shield is no Weapon.... sure there are ways to use it aggresively, like basing someone with a shield, but i just cant see that it would give someone and extra attack in CC. I mean, even a fork is a deadly weapon if used properly, almost anything have the "potential" to kill or damage.. But i just cant realize how a shield (that is designt for, and meant to "protect)" can give and equal punch in CC as any real weapon which is in order created to deal damage..

 

Now im not saying like people should implicate "RAW". but things like this just dont need any clarification, for me..