BC with LC

[SamaNagol]

Well they do. Because the Codex says it counts as a single handed weapon. If the Codex said it counted as a Lascannon I'd be throwing that shield at tank like I was Captain America.

[Eddie Orlock]

Well they do. Because the Codex says it counts as a single handed weapon. If the Codex said it counted as a Lascannon I'd be throwing that shield at tank like I was Captain America.

The argument is not how many hands it takes to wield, is whether it is to be classified as 'Normal' or 'Special'.

 

However, to respond to your previous post, about no other shield being said to count as a weapon, I shall refer you to note 1 of the armoury on page 6 of the third edition of codex: space marines, "... Although a storm shield is not a weapon as such, it counts as a single-handed weapon because nothing else can be used by the arm holding the shield" In effect, it counted as a weapon for armoury selection purposes only.

 

Contemporary to that book, I encountered no-one whom would have attempted to claim the extra attack for two weapons (although, I think that may have been faq'd a some point). Slight variations of the note in Codex: Deamon Hunters are not without precedent.

[SamaNagol]

Whatever is written in C:SM is of zero relevance when it comes to RAW. You know that.

[Hellbreaker]

Whatever is written in C:SM is of zero relevance when it comes to RAW. You know that.

 

Indeed it is...

 

Now I've noticed a slight lack of the other part of the argument...

 

So, a DH storm shield may be a secondary weapon, I don't know... But who's holding it?

A GKT... What's he GKT holding?

A nemesis force weapon... Does the NFW enhance the combat effectiveness of the GKT?

Yes... Thus it's a special weapon, no extra attack.

 

End of discussion.

 

Cheers!

[Lord_Zyplon]

Yes... Thus it's a special weapon, no extra attack.

 

 

Wait, what do you mean? I thought the bonus attack restriction only applied to LCs, PFs, and THs. I suppose you'd be right if the SS counted as a special CCW, but it doesn't enhance the user's attacks.

[Hellbreaker]

Yes... Thus it's a special weapon, no extra attack.

 

 

Wait, what do you mean? I thought the bonus attack restriction only applied to LCs, PFs, and THs. I suppose you'd be right if the SS counted as a special CCW, but it doesn't enhance the user's attacks.

 

The NFW ofc... :)

 

The restriction is weapons that enhances your fighting ability... And if I'm right, NFWs do this in terms of increasing strength... ;)

 

Regular GKs got a special rule, so they're out of question for further discussion upon the NFW not granting an additional attack if paired with a SS.

 

Cheers!

[Lord_Zyplon]

I'm not sure what you mean. The only possible candidates for NFW + SS are GK GM & BC - PAGK are completely out.

 

Now, the BRB states that a special, 1H CCW gains a bonus attack if paired with a normal CCW. This doesn't work for Powerfists, Lightning Claws, and Thunder Hammers - NFW are not mentioned as restricted. It also states that two special, 1H CCWs don't give a bonus attack.

 

So, if a Storm Shield counts as a "normal" CCW, a GK using it with a NFW would gain a bonus attack.

If it counts as a special CCW, it wouldn't.

[Eddie Orlock]

Whatever is written in C:SM is of zero relevance when it comes to RAW. You know that.

It counts so far as establishing a precedent for interpretation. Directly, no, you're right, it's moot, but, I was answering, and refuting, your assertion that the wording used in the deamon hunter book was unique.

 

Effectively, this had been debated and resolved a decade ago, before some Inquisition players got their knickers in a twist about losing an attack in fifth edition.

[Hellbreaker]

So, if a Storm Shield counts as a "normal" CCW, a GK using it with a NFW would gain a bonus attack.

If it counts as a special CCW, it wouldn't.

 

That's what I've been trying to tell you is wrong... It's not a matter of the shield, but rather the other weapon.

 

I'm sorry if GKT don't have SS's, I don't have the DH codex, just the WH one... Just pulling what I've been seeing being ignored here...

 

So the BC or GM can have which weapons?

Power weapon, NFW, other stuff...

 

From the line in the description of a special close combat weapon (Enhances the models fighting abilities) the NFW is a special close combat weapon...

 

So the SS in itself can be a normal weapon how much it wants because it doesn't matter...

The wielder of it will have a special weapon, because I'm 100% you don't equip a BC or GM with a normal chainsword or something...

Sure a pistol could work, but to what use? You just got an expensive model with next to nothing in fighting ability, the area where GK's excel.

 

So, saying that the shield is a close combat weapon (which it describes pretty clearly) but the wielder doesn't even have a normal CC weapon(Except for the lame pistol combo mentioned) said wearer won't ever get an additional attack.

 

Thanks for reading. ^^

 

Cheers!

[Lord_Zyplon]

NFW are special weapons. No debate there.

 

A normal and a special weapon

These models gain an additional attack.

...

Power fists, thunder hammers, and lightning claws are an exception to this.

 

By your logic, a SM Sergeant with a bolt pistol and power weapon couldn't claim the +1 - even though he does.

 

Since the NFW are special, the only argument is whether the SS is or not... which has been beaten to death multiple times.

 

(So you know. These GK Heroes have a NFW, Storm Bolter, and Terminator Armor standard. The armor's what's started this whole debate - they physically can't carry a pistol, or a chainsword, so other ways of gaining the +1 have to be found.)

[SamaNagol]

lol Yes, fortunately special weapons always gain an extra attack from another mundane or normal weapon so your line of reasoning is utterly incorrect I am afraid. As quoted above, and by myself earlier, it is only Power Fists, Lightning Claws, Thunder Hammers that are an exception.

 

The debate is twofold. Does the Storm Shield actually count as a weapon for the purposes of close combat? The description in the DH Codex would imply so.

 

Does the Storm Shield then count as a Normal or a Special Weapon? If it counts as a normal weapon then you get an extra attack. if it counts as a Special Weapon then you do not, as you only receive an extra attack when using 2 special weapons if they are both the same type.

[Hellbreaker]

NFW are special weapons. No debate there.

 

A normal and a special weapon

These models gain an additional attack.

...

Power fists, thunder hammers, and lightning claws are an exception to this.

 

By your logic, a SM Sergeant with a bolt pistol and power weapon couldn't claim the +1 - even though he does.

 

Since the NFW are special, the only argument is whether the SS is or not... which has been beaten to death multiple times.

 

(So you know. These GK Heroes have a NFW, Storm Bolter, and Terminator Armor standard. The armor's what's started this whole debate - they physically can't carry a pistol, or a chainsword, so other ways of gaining the +1 have to be found.)

 

Hmm... I suppose you're right, my argument is no longer valid. :)

 

I still don't believe the shield confers an extra attack, even without reading the thread with proof...

So, keep on discussing...

 

I'll watch... In my imagined lurkyness...

 

Cheers!

[Wrath]

I have not read this whole thread, so if a mod feels like my input is irelevant feel free to delete it.

 

My point is, a Shield is no Weapon.... sure there are ways to use it aggresively, like basing someone with a shield, but i just cant see that it would give someone and extra attack in CC. I mean, even a fork is a deadly weapon if used properly, almost anything have the "potential" to kill or damage.. But i just cant realize how a shield (that is designt for, and meant to "protect)" can give and equal punch in CC as any real weapon which is in order created to deal damage..

 

Now im not saying like people should implicate "RAW". but things like this just dont need any clarification, for me..

 

Forgive me for ignoring most of the posts in this thread, but I decided that this needed to be responded to.

 

Heavy shields (and one would assume that TDA would be equipped with rather a potent shield) make for some of the most brutal close-in weapons that you'll ever find. Pushing with the surface, bashing with the edge, stabbing with the boss, and other strikes make shields that are designed for it just as deadly, if not more so, than more conventional weapons. I doubt that a SS is a little wicker thing that would be crushed when you smashed somebody on the head with it. I'm guessing it'd be more like a solid slab of tank armor with a handle bolted on, or maybe some kind of energy-based shield (which might be an even nastier weapon depending on the energy field that it generated).

 

As an example of what a shield can do, Spike TV's Deadliest Warrior show in their Spartan v. Ninja episode did some tests on the Aspis and found it to be one of the most potent weapons they've encountered. If a simple round bronze-age shield can say that, then just think about a Gray Knight in TDA with the M41 equivalent.

 

And now, feel free to carry on with the discussion.