GK Chapter Structure

[glayvin34]

I was reading that thread nearby on making a GK chaplain, which sounds fun and would make for a VERY cool model. However, it says in the Daemonhunters codex that the GK don't follow the Codex Astartes, in that they progress from Battle Brother to Terminator Honors to Brother-Captain finally to Grand Master. I've always wondered at the lack of librarians in a force composed exclusively of psykers. Does that little box on page 7 of the codex mean (fluff-wise) they don't have ANYTHING except Battle Brothers, Battle Brothers wearing TDA, Captains and Grand Masters? There are no GK Librarians?

 

I'm asking from a fluff standpoint, of course. If you want to make a GK chaplain, like I said that would look really cool, and you could just make up that your GKs are from M37 or something when GKs followed the Codex Astartes for a little while, then thought better of it after a few centuries.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

always wondered at the lack of librarians in a force composed exclusively of psykers. Does that little box on page 7 of the codex mean (fluff-wise) they don't have ANYTHING except Battle Brothers, Battle Brothers wearing TDA, Captains and Grand Masters? There are no GK Librarians?

 

What's the point? If a standard GK Terminator can "match the abilities of even the mightiest Librarians of the Adeptus Astartes" (C:DH, p 7: Tigurius, watch your back), it does make Librarians rather irrelevant. These guys are better, and since most of their abilities (powering NFWs, The Aegis, Rites of Exorcism) are drawn from their psychic capabilities, there's no real scope for focusing on psychic powers at the expense of combat capability - the two aren't seperate. A Grey Knight can't separate much of his ability from his psychic prowess. The 'opportunities' afforded to a Librarian (where his combat prowess is not drawn mostly his powers, but from the Chapter training) simply aren't open to the Grey Knights.

 

To put it another way, it's like looking at the modern dual-role (anti-armour and infantry support) tank corps of today and asking "Does that mean they don't have any tanks that sacrifice speed in order to support the infantry?". There's no need to specialise in one role or the other - it's all been rolled into one without any loss to either capability. You don't have to choose between being a Librarian and being a non-psychic combat expert. A Grey Knight is the sum of both. You don't have to sacrifice one ability in order to reach your full potential in the other.

 

If you want to make a GK chaplain, like I said that would look really cool, and you could just make up that your GKs are from M37 or something when GKs followed the Codex Astartes for a little while, then thought better of it after a few centuries.

 

Tip of the day, mate: don't mess with the history of official Chapters. Stick to the real unknowns.

[glayvin34]

What's the point? If a standard GK Terminator can "match the abilities of even the mightiest Librarians of the Adeptus Astartes" (C:DH, p 7: Tigurius, watch your back), it does make Librarians rather irrelevant. These guys are better, and since most of their abilities (powering NFWs, The Aegis, Rites of Exorcism) are drawn from their psychic capabilities, there's no real scope for focusing on psychic powers at the expense of combat capability - the two aren't seperate. A Grey Knight can't separate much of his ability from his psychic prowess. The 'opportunities' afforded to a Librarian (where his combat prowess is not drawn mostly his powers, but from the Chapter training) simply aren't open to the Grey Knights.

 

I guess that works for them. So fielding a Brother-Captain as psychic artillery is less of drain on GK resources than fielding a librarian would be for the Ultramarines, hence the point cost discrepancy?

So I can understand the lack of librarians if all GKs can eventually fill that role. And I understand the lack of chaplains given that GKs are the strongest willed and most devout humans in the galaxy. But they also skip the Apothecaries?

 

And on a totally separate note, only B-Cs taken as HQs get to chose something other than Holocaust for their psychic power, right?

 

Tip of the day, mate: don't mess with the history of official Chapters. Stick to the real unknowns.

Meh. To each his own. I figure this is the easiest way to modify an extant chapter if there's one little thing you don't like about them. Imperial Fists too bright to be tactically effective? Just say that in M35 a Captain had his whole company darken their yellow to get at some orks hiding in a jungle somewhere. Think Space Wolves look better with helmets? Say that in M38 a detachment got a hold of some helmets that didn't dim their enhanced sense of smell, which have all been lost since then.

 

One man's heresy is another man's lame excuse to do something fun!

[DinoDoc]

I'm asking from a fluff standpoint, of course. If you want to make a GK chaplain, like I said that would look really cool, and you could just ...

read the Grey Knights novel to find out about a Grey Knight named Chaplain Durendin.

[Eddie Orlock]

'Ancient' Grey Knight source materials have having Librarians who were far and away above and beyond the norms of human achievement. We're talking Alpha or better level stuff. This was a long time ago though, so a strong dose of salt is required.

[ripath]

And I understand the lack of chaplains given that GKs are the strongest willed and most devout humans in the galaxy

Is a man simply born strong? Or does he become so through training? GK chaplains would hardley surprise me especially if their role was administering the rites of detestation, or guidence for the initiates.

[Brother Tuditanus]

And I understand the lack of chaplains given that GKs are the strongest willed and most devout humans in the galaxy

Is a man simply born strong? Or does he become so through training? GK chaplains would hardley surprise me especially if their role was administering the rites of detestation, or guidence for the initiates.

 

Sort of like a Cleric/Trainer, but not apt to take a role on the battlefield often, I could see. Their role in battle is moot w/ GK, but other Chaplains roles could be filled.

[Adeptus Templar]

Well, IMHO I think they would only keep maybe one or two chaplains on Titan to help guide and steer the initiates in the right direction and a couple of apothecaries in the infirmary/hospital area to make sure the surgeries/transplants are done correctly and for when battle brothers come back wounded and such. I wouldn't see much use in a librarian since GK's are already psychic and I am pretty sure the inquisition/ordo malleus has their own protocols for keeping records of what happens.

[Kaled100]

I can imagine the Grey Knight having Librarians - warrior-psyker is not the only role performed by members of the Librarium; they're also responsible for recording the annals of the chapter, it's victories, honours etc. - the chapter is likely to want to keep its own records of such things.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

And I understand the lack of chaplains given that GKs are the strongest willed and most devout humans in the galaxy

Is a man simply born strong? Or does he become so through training? GK chaplains would hardley surprise me especially if their role was administering the rites of detestation, or guidence for the initiates.

 

A combination of both, I should think. Someone who is not strong-willed would not survive the training for the Grey Knights, nor would they make a very safe psyker, but that's not to say that will couldn't be improved on.

 

That said, given that Grey Knights have "never faltered in battle or turned to Chaos", I suspect they would not be allowed out to fight without having overcome any doubts first. A doubt is a weakness, and it's better to have a narrow mind that sees the things it should more clearly. Otherwise, that doubt can be exploited by Chaos.

 

In other words, I wouldn't think there are such things as GK Chaplains, at least not in the role that we understand them within the context of the Codex Chapters. They could well function as teachers and instructors within the GK training programme, but spiritual aid - no. You either have an unshakeable faith, or you don't.

I could see them fulfilling the "administrative" roles of the Codex Librarian too, particularly since they would remain at Titan. They'd be quite useful for monitoring the level of exposure to the Librarium Daemonica that the new recruits get, gradually allowing them to learn more.

[- 7eAL -]

I can imagine the Grey Knight having Librarians - warrior-psyker is not the only role performed by members of the Librarium; they're also responsible for recording the annals of the chapter, it's victories, honours etc. - the chapter is likely to want to keep its own records of such things.

Well, IMHO I think they would only keep maybe one or two chaplains on Titan to help guide and steer the initiates in the right direction and a couple of apothecaries in the infirmary/hospital area to make sure the surgeries/transplants are done correctly and for when battle brothers come back wounded and such.

Sort of like a Cleric/Trainer, but not apt to take a role on the battlefield often, I could see. Their role in battle is moot w/ GK, but other Chaplains roles could be filled.

In other words, I wouldn't think there are such things as GK Chaplains, at least not in the role that we understand them within the context of the Codex Chapters. They could well function as teachers and instructors within the GK training programme, but spiritual aid - no. You either have an unshakeable faith, or you don't.

I could see them fulfilling the "administrative" roles of the Codex Librarian too, particularly since they would remain at Titan. They'd be quite useful for monitoring the level of exposure to the Librarium Daemonica that the new recruits get, gradually allowing them to learn more.

All of the above combined.

 

Keep in mind that all Grey Knights have the power of a Librarian, and all Grey Knights have the faith of a Chaplain.

The titles "Librarian" and "Chaplain" mean something about the individual character inside a Codex Chapter, as a Librarian must be a psyker, and a Chaplain must be strong of faith and personality. Inside a Codex Chapter, these men are found to be different from the rest and so are conferred these titles. Amongst the Grey Knights these titles lose all intrinsic value and insight into character, as all are psykers and all are faithful - some perhaps more or less than others but never too far apart. Amongst the Grey Knights, men are not so different that they can be singled out and given names.

In game terms, a Codex Chapter's Librarian or Chaplain is a very different man from his battle-brothers - he has an extra job, but his job is entirely related to his person. In game terms, a Grey Knight Librarian or Grey Knight Chaplain is still just another Grey Knight with a special job - the job has nothing to do with any personal abilities.

 

The titles "Librarian" and "Chaplain" retain their value as titles, however. The names "Librarian", "Chaplain" and "Apothecary" mean something about the roles that an individual might play amongst his comrades. All Chapters and fighting organizations including the Grey Knights need someone to lead their battles, plan their strategies, record their histories, teach their initiates, train their recruits, care for their wounded and tend to their equipment. Where the Captains, Librarians, Chaplains, Apothecaries and Techmarines of Codex chapters play these roles with experience and training, the Grey Knights must have similar people playing these roles too.

And before anybody says Grey Knights can't have Techmarines or Apothecaries - at least one Grey Knight has to be able to fix up a tank or sew up a bullet wound. No Grey Knight in his right mind would trust a fiddly servitor or faceless Techpriest not to mess up his gear or leave a scalpel in his gut - who knows what corruptions these pitifully inferior creatures might have?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

As far as specialists go, here are my opinions (and thats largely all they are, because we simply don't know one way or the other)

 

- GK Chaplains: I think they're neccessary, for two reasons. Firstly, the Grey Knights do their own recruitment (as well as poaching choice warriors off the Black Ships haul), so they'd need a Chaplain to screen the candidates before they become initiates (Grandmasters and the rest of the line warriors are too busy stomping Daemons to recruit newbies). Secondly, Grey Knights are unshakeably loyal and incorruptible, but their faith and sanity still requires renewal. A Chaplain would play a role in watching over their brethren, ensuring their spiritual armour (which is their most formidable asset) remains strong. It's not a question of doubting their faith, it's just they need someone to provide spiritual guidance and conduct the rituals which cleanse their minds of what they've experienced and fought. Their incorruptible reputation isn't something the Grey Knights would take lightly, and given the ubiquitous nature of Chaos, their untainted service record would require constant vigilance to maintain.

 

- GK Apothecaries: Like all Astartes, Grey Knights carry gene-seed. This must be harvested, especially if the battle-brother has perished, and thus there is a need for an Apothecary. However, given that the Grey Knights are based on Titan, their few Apothecaries probably don't leave the Sol system very often. However, as with the Chaplain, when it comes time to test new candidates and implant the gene-seed into initiates, an Apothecary would need to be on hand.

 

- GK Tech-Marines: I doubt they would have them. Their home base is next door to Mars, and they have the full resources of the Ordo Malleus to call upon, in terms of logistics (ships, equipment etc). Grey Knights don't typically deploy with much armoured support, and when they do the circumstances are pretty dire (because it means their usual method of 'teleport in, kill everything, teleport out' isn't available). All of their vehicles are relics (Landraiders), and their few Dreadnoughts are equally unique. So, unlike a traditional Chapter, they don't have a large motor pool or a need for self-sufficiency.

 

GK Librarians: Again, I doubt this. Most of a Grey Knight's psychic ability (which is considerable) is focused inward, to shield their mind and soul from the depredations of Chaos. They also channel a lot of their willpower into their nemesis force weapons and their battle-chants. Raw psychic powers like force lightning etc aren't really their style. Of course, senior ranks like Brother-Captain or Grandmaster can do some crazy things (as represented in the rules), but with an entire Chapter of powerful psykers, a dedicated wing of GK psykers is redundant.

 

 

So, I think Apothecaries and Chaplains are certainly likely (as they fufill roles the line warriors can't do on their own), but the other specialists are redundant/unlikely to exist, due to the nature of the Grey Knight Chapter.

[Eddie Orlock]

In you standard codex chapter, librarians also are known for being long range communications conduits. I suspect that would be these and other secondary roles, including the psychic screening of new recruits, would become more prominent. Assuming we reject the idea that GK librarians have near alpha or better psionic abilities.

[jeffersonian000]

I'll wade in.

 

If it wasn't for fluff, I'd say that Grey Knight do not need Chaplains and therefore don't have them, as each Knight is a priest in his own right. Yet there is that pesky piece of fluff with all those (in)accurate additions to Chapter 666. As to Apothecaries and Tech Marines, Grey Knights have no need to retrieve their geneseed from fallen brothers as Mars can maintain a stead supply of fresh geneseed on demand via the same harvesting process used to create new chapters as well as provide the technology and backing needed to maintain the Knights as a dedicated fighting force. As to Librarians, well, Grey Knights already fulfill that role on their own as the only need they would have for a Librarian is to receive and send telepathic messages across space and time, something a Brother Captain or Grand Master should be able to handle on their own.

 

Grey Knight are different from every other Space Marine chapter in that they are not self sufficient and self reliant. They have the full backing of Terra, the Mechanicus, and the Ordo Malleus. As such, every able bodied Knight is a combatant first and always, and everything else is secondary and can be fulfilled by others dedicated to those specific purposes (such as ship crews, monastery custodians, medical staff, etc.).

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

In you standard codex chapter, librarians also are known for being long range communications conduits. I suspect that would be these and other secondary roles, including the psychic screening of new recruits, would become more prominent. Assuming we reject the idea that GK librarians have near alpha or better psionic abilities.

 

Long-range communication isn't an issue, as they have the best Astropaths on board their strike cruisers. Not only that, but the Inquisitor that called them out in the first place will be the one doing all the co-ordinating. All the Grey Knights need to worry about is teleporting in and killing everything.

Psychic screening would probably be conducted by the GK Chaplains (ironically, the only Chaplains in existence who are psychic). After all, they can do both roles. No need for a seperate Librarium, and from the canon we know it is the Chaplains who do the record keeping and maintain the crypts on Titan. I imagine the Apothecaries also help in screening new recruits (when they do their psycho-surgery, hypnosis, mind-scrubbing etc), as they are psychic as well.

 

If it wasn't for fluff, I'd say that Grey Knight do not need Chaplains and therefore don't have them, as each Knight is a priest in his own right.

 

This isn't quite correct. Certainly, every Grey Knight has faith that outstrips anything a normal human (and perhaps most Astartes) could ever have. However, a priest is a spiritual leader, someone who can preach and renew the faith in his brothers. Even in a Chapter of insanely loyal superhumans, a Chaplain would play a vital role (not least in which building up a raw recruit into a full battle-brother). Considering the major focus for a GK is his faith, someone would have to instill it and test it to ensure their service record remains unblemished. In all other known Chapters (hell, even in the Word Bearers), that role is fufilled by a Chaplain.

As to Apothecaries and Tech Marines, Grey Knights have no need to retrieve their geneseed from fallen brothers as Mars can maintain a stead supply of fresh geneseed on demand via the same harvesting process used to create new chapters as well as provide the technology and backing needed to maintain the Knights as a dedicated fighting force.

 

If you read the 'Index Astartes', you'll realise what a laborious process creating even existing gene-seed from scratch is. The Mechanicus basically has to build a gene-seed type, test it, then implant it into a vat-grown clone. They then get a two new gene-seed copies from it, and repeat until they have a large enough crop to start a Founding (I forget exact numbers, but most likely 1,000). All the while, constant tests, removal of rejected attempts and failures etc.

Thats why the Emperor designed the progenoid glands. He realised (after his success with the Custodes) that entire armies would require impossible logistics, in the field, to maintain their numbers via conventional manufacturing. However, with this success came another problem; how to quickly harvest said progenoids (especially in the field). Space Marines had to be (even back in the Legion days, with naval+Mechanicus support in tow) self-sufficient fighting forces, as did their support staff. Thus, the Apothecarian and Apothecaries were created. They can keep up with their battle-brothers (by all accounts, they're just as deadly as any other Marine in combat), and perform the complex and (by now) barely understood process of harvesting and implanting into new recruits.

From what we know in the canon, all Grey Knights have progenoid glands, and they have to be harvested to continue the Chapter. Plus, new recruits need expert medical attention if they are to successfully make the transition to Space Marine (or in this case, Grey Knight). Naturally, this leads to Apothecaries.

Grey Knight are different from every other Space Marine chapter in that they are not self sufficient and self reliant. They have the full backing of Terra, the Mechanicus, and the Ordo Malleus. As such, every able bodied Knight is a combatant first and always, and everything else is secondary and can be fulfilled by others dedicated to those specific purposes (such as ship crews, monastery custodians, medical staff, etc.).

 

I agree, they are a very unconventional Chapter, but there are still very concrete reasons for Chaplains and Apothecaries, which cannot be ignored. Having to be active combatants in no way diminishes or eliminates the need for specialists within the Chapter. However, due to the unique deployment/tactics/nature of the Grey Knights, Tech-Marines are highly unlikely (see below) and Librarians are redundant (because every GK is a psyker, and their training with regards to their powers is focused inwards).

 

So, in summary;

- Chaplain: Very strong case, backed up by canon

- Apothecary: Pretty strong case, backed up by canon

- Librarian: Unlikely, given the nature of the Chapter+deployment in concert with Malleus Inquisitors

- Tech-Marine: Unlikely, given rarity of GK vehicles in quantity and deployment terms, the proximity to Mars+Malleus resources on hand, and their dual loyalties being in conflict with the nature of a Grey Knight

 

P.S. Something else to be considered; a GK Tech-Marine would be impossible, as their faith in the Emperor would be compromised by their beliefs regarding the Machine Cult. Even in regular Chapters, Tech-Marines are rare and often quite isolated from their fellow battle-brothers, for this exact reason. In a Chapter where faith is their most important weapon and defense, dual loyalties would be impossible to sustain.

[- 7eAL -]

- Tech-Marine: Unlikely, given rarity of GK vehicles in quantity and deployment terms, the proximity to Mars+Malleus resources on hand, and their dual loyalties being in conflict with the nature of a Grey Knight

 

P.S. Something else to be considered; a GK Tech-Marine would be impossible, as their faith in the Emperor would be compromised by their beliefs regarding the Machine Cult. Even in regular Chapters, Tech-Marines are rare and often quite isolated from their fellow battle-brothers, for this exact reason. In a Chapter where faith is their most important weapon and defense, dual loyalties would be impossible to sustain.

While true, it does not preclude Grey Knights from learning those skills in machining and crafting. Grey Knights do in fact need at least a handful of people with some technological and engineering skills.

- Grey Knights on the field cannot be accompanied by a full team of servitors and Tech Adepts, as these lesser creatures are liable to corruption if brought into contact with daemons on the field. If a machine such as a Land Raider or Thunderhawk breaks down in combat, at least one Grey Knight must have at least enough technological training to get the thing moving from the field to an extraction point and from the extraction point back to a Strike Cruiser.

- Grey Knights maintaining their personal weapons and wargear must also be taught the correct operational parameters and performance of their equipment, and as least one Grey Knight must have at least enough training to identify malfunctions, damage, wear, so on and so forth. Considering that some Grey Knight equipment is handed down across generations, this becomes potentially difficult for a novice as some superficial wear on older marks of armour or different parts on older weapons are indistinguishable from real problems.

- Grey Knights use a great deal of sophisticated support equipment from teleporters to Strike Cruisers, and if need arises they must be able to operate and manage without direct assistance or immediate instruction from the Tech-Adepts and servitors on the crew. If Grey Knight pilot is taught how to control ship systems on a Strike Cruiser, adjust mechanical settings a Thunderhawk or manage a Land Raider's Machine Spirits, these are considered technological skills beyond the scope of an ordinary Grey Knight's training.

 

As far as the Grey Knights are concerned, any Grey Knight with some technological education can fulfill the role of a Techmarine.

Their qualification requirements for this job are lower than in any other Codex Chapter, because if they require a true Techmarine's skills, then they ship the machine back to Mars.

If ever the Grey Knights have someone to take that role equivalent to a Codex Chapter's Techmarine, that individual cannot be seconded to Mars or apprenticed by a Tech Magos and cannot swear oaths to the Adeptus Mechanicus of Mars or to the Omnissiah. That Grey Knight is trained only in whatever skills are necessary to maintain the Grey Knights' equipment and armoury in the field - only the bare bones of a true Techmarine's full education, as a Techmarine does not only maintain his Chapter's armoury but theoretically knows enough to able to build machines as well. The difference between the two is equivalent to a Grey Knight passing high school workshop classes whereas a true Techmarine goes to college for an engineering degree.

[jeffersonian000]

Wow, Reclusiarch Darius, you seem to be assuming that I don't read. Yes, I'm very aware of how geneseed is cultivated and grown, yet I'm also very aware that codex chapters tithe their geneseed to the Mechanicus rather than draw from the Mechanicus geneseed banks. Grey Knights are both in the same system as Mars and have no restrictions of their numbers outside of their exceptionally taxing recruiting process. We see no mention of Knight geneseed recovery. It does stand to reason that their geneseed is neither tithed nor retrieved from their fallen; it is most likely provided fresh from the Mechanicus as needed.

 

On Techmarines, Grey Knights seem to fall into the same gray area as Adepta Sororitas in that neither group has dedicated tech adepts in their ranks yet both groups fulfill a role requiring extended missions away from re-supply and refurbishment. We can assume, and rightly so, that Grey Knights (much like Sisters of Battle) maintain their personal equipment with skills they've each acquired when first inducted into the mysteries of their order. This also lends credence to the concept that each Grey Knight is a priest of the Cult Imperialus, with Justicars leading their Knights in prayer as Brother Captains and Grand Masters see to their brethren's spiritual needs as a whole.

 

Functionally, I see the Gray Knight hierarchy unfolding from the Grand Master, who sends and receives telepathic messages to his peers and his subordinate Brother Captains while maintaining the spiritual center of his followers, then to the Brother Captains who maintain communications with their Grand Master superior while seeing to their subordinate Justicars and Brother Knights, and then on to the Justicars themselves who see to the sacred rights of their brotherhood while continuing the training and spiritual guidance of their squads. Add to this the divine rituals of maintenance and purifying of their personal armor and armaments that each and every Grey knight follows daily, and we begin to see a chapter of marines that is focused on combating their foe above all else while leaving the minutia of other chapters behind.

 

This also means that Grey knights would not manage their own recruitment, which is most likely overseen by the Ordo Malleus and their relationship with the Adeptus Terra and Adeptus Mechanicus. This is a significant break from the Codex Astartes, yet Grey Knights are no Codex Marines and in no way follow the teachings of Roboute Guilliman.

 

SJ

 

*Note: I started playing 40k with Rogue Trader, and remember when Guilliman was an Imperial Guard commander, the Ultramarines where a 3rd founding chapter, and the only green Marines were Salamanders as the Dark Angels wore black. As such, my views are a little skewed and should in no way supersede the views of anyone else; this are just my musings on a hobby I’ve followed on and off for the better part of 20+ years.

[Eddie Orlock]

In you standard codex chapter, librarians also are known for being long range communications conduits. I suspect that would be these and other secondary roles, including the psychic screening of new recruits, would become more prominent. Assuming we reject the idea that GK librarians have near alpha or better psionic abilities.

Long-range communication isn't an issue, as they have the best Astropaths on board their strike cruisers. Not only that, but the Inquisitor that called them out in the first place will be the one doing all the co-ordinating. All the Grey Knights need to worry about is teleporting in and killing everything.

Psychic screening would probably be conducted by the GK Chaplains (ironically, the only Chaplains in existence who are psychic). After all, they can do both roles. No need for a seperate Librarium, and from the canon we know it is the Chaplains who do the record keeping and maintain the crypts on Titan. I imagine the Apothecaries also help in screening new recruits (when they do their psycho-surgery, hypnosis, mind-scrubbing etc), as they are psychic as well.

 

...

 

- Librarian: Unlikely, given the nature of the Chapter+deployment in concert with Malleus Inquisitors

I digress that 'long range' may not have been a precise enough term, astrotelepathy is functionally the exclusive domain of specially trained astrotelepaths. We're looking at the greater edges of sub-astrotelepathic range, poorly defined as that is.

 

Once again I bust out my copy of Dark Millennium and turn to the lower left hand corner of page 22 and quote verbatim "Though the Grey Knights do have Librarians like other Space Marine Chapters (though considerably more powerful) ..."

 

Unless someone can come up with a rule book source that states that the Knights do not have Librarians, the evidence for them is just as strong, if not stronger, than that for the Chaplains.

 

Perhaps the Librarians are responsible for updating and maintaining the Liber Daemonicus or illuminating new copies for new initiates. Regardless, the Librarium is home to those knights whom are like welding torches to the average knights candle in the dark.

 

Wow, Reclusiarch Darius, you seem to be assuming that I don't read.

 

...

SJ

 

*Note: I started playing 40k with Rogue Trader, and remember when Guilliman was an Imperial Guard commander, the Ultramarines where a 3rd founding chapter, and the only green Marines were Salamanders as the Dark Angels wore black. As such, my views are a little skewed and should in no way supersede the views of anyone else; this are just my musings on a hobby I’ve followed on and off for the better part of 20+ years.

Nothing' quite like the 'I'm more ancient than thou' card, eh? Back when the Wolves hailed from Lucan and 'Nids had diplomats.

[SamaNagol]

Grey Knights have Chaplains and Librarians. They don't have Techmarines or Apothecaries though. There's no records of such a thing existing even in BL sources.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

While true, it does not preclude Grey Knights from learning those skills in machining and crafting. Grey Knights do in fact need at least a handful of people with some technological and engineering skills.

 

Yeah, I'm sure thats possible (we even have an example in the canon of someone skilled in maintaining guns), but with regards to an actual Tech-Marine;

 

If ever the Grey Knights have someone to take that role equivalent to a Codex Chapter's Techmarine, that individual cannot be seconded to Mars or apprenticed by a Tech Magos and cannot swear oaths to the Adeptus Mechanicus of Mars or to the Omnissiah. That Grey Knight is trained only in whatever skills are necessary to maintain the Grey Knights' equipment and armoury in the field - only the bare bones of a true Techmarine's full education, as a Techmarine does not only maintain his Chapter's armoury but theoretically knows enough to able to build machines as well. The difference between the two is equivalent to a Grey Knight passing high school workshop classes whereas a true Techmarine goes to college for an engineering degree.

 

Pretty much. I mean, all Astartes are trained, regardless of rank, to take care of their weapons+armour, so they don't break down and hinder them in the field. I'm sure a Grey Knight would be able to maintain his armour and weapons, and some would know how to operate+maintain the limited armour pool of Landraiders they have.

Yes, I'm very aware of how geneseed is cultivated and grown, yet I'm also very aware that codex chapters tithe their geneseed to the Mechanicus rather than draw from the Mechanicus geneseed banks.

 

I would extend that further by saying that the Mechanicus gene-banks are not for creating new Chapters persay (although they can be used for that purpose), they're more designed as a record to judge fresh tithes against.

We see no mention of Knight geneseed recovery. It does stand to reason that their geneseed is neither tithed nor retrieved from their fallen; it is most likely provided fresh from the Mechanicus as needed.

 

Yes we do. In the novels (and they are canon), they cut out the gene-seed from their fallen brethren when they can't transport the body itself. If replicating gene-seed was such a trivial matter, they wouldn't bother.

My long spiel about gene-seed was mainly to illustrate the point that even being next-door to Mars, conventional manufacture of gene-seed is too slow and consumes too many resources to be practical, even for a small and elite Chapter like the Grey Knights. Recovery of the progenoids (which we know GK's have) is a much more reliable and quicker way to replenish the Chapter's strength. What works for conventional Astartes would work just as well for Chapter 666.

On a more spiritual note, gene-seed is also tied to the beliefs of the Astartes, with regards to reincarnation. It's a half-truth that by implanting the progenoids of the fallen into new initiates, the dead continue their fight. That cycle of death and re-birth reinforces their belief that even in death, they can still serve the Emperor, and deny His enemies victory. For a Chapter in which faith is so important, that element of their beliefs would be pretty important. It ties in with their metaphysical destiny of joining their soul with the Emperor's when they die.

This also lends credence to the concept that each Grey Knight is a priest of the Cult Imperialus, with Justicars leading their Knights in prayer as Brother Captains and Grand Masters see to their brethren's spiritual needs as a whole.

 

I disagree. Firstly, the beliefs of the Grey Knights are quite different to that of the Cult Imperialis. Secondly, their Chapter philosophy is at odds with the role of a priest; they focus inwards, on shielding their souls from Chaos.

Also, it makes things quite awkward for a Chapter to use line officers when initiating new recruits, or testing them, or even maintaining the faith of the Chapter brethren. It makes more sense to allow a specialist corps of Chaplains to conduct those duties, letting the line officers manage the actual business of fighting, strategy and tactics. It's important that such individuals have independence from the command hierarchy, because they have to act as a guardian against corruption. Like with gene-seed and Apothecaries, what is true for conventional Chapters would be true for the Grey Knights.

 

This also means that Grey knights would not manage their own recruitment, which is most likely overseen by the Ordo Malleus and their relationship with the Adeptus Terra and Adeptus Mechanicus. This is a significant break from the Codex Astartes, yet Grey Knights are no Codex Marines and in no way follow the teachings of Roboute Guilliman.

 

Again, I disagree. In the canon, we know they handle their own recruitment+creation of new battle-brothers. This lends credence to the role of Chaplains and Apothecaries, as both are required when conducting recruitment.

 

Once again I bust out my copy of Dark Millennium and turn to the lower left hand corner of page 22 and quote verbatim "Though the Grey Knights do have Librarians like other Space Marine Chapters (though considerably more powerful) ..."

 

Unless someone can come up with a rule book source that states that the Knights do not have Librarians, the evidence for them is just as strong, if not stronger, than that for the Chaplains.

 

We've had a codex and several novels published since then. In general, it's the convention that most recent canon > older canon. In both the codex and the novels, there is zero indication of any Grey Knight Librarians, and in many ways you can see how the idea is redundant. An entire of Chapter of insanely loyal battle-psykers, who focus on building their powers within, rather than on impacting on the physical world. The theatrics of force lightning are trivial compared to the power of a untouchable soul, hence the success of the Grey Knights in combating Daemons.

Thats not to say Brother-Captains and Grandmasters aren't capable of the same powers as conventional Librarians, but they largely don't need to explore those kinds of psychic power.

I agree though, there is nothing forbidding it (and as you say, GW clearly thought it is was possible, back in the days when Grey Knights only deployed in TDA), but I think nowadays it's a pretty strange concept. Possible, but unlikely.

 

Perhaps the Librarians are responsible for updating and maintaining the Liber Daemonicus or illuminating new copies for new initiates.

 

Maybe, but we at least know Chaplains do record keeping and maintenance of the crypts on Titan. This is purely my opinion, but I think GK Chaplains actually combine the roles of Librarian and Chaplain, due to their unique status. They're the only Chapter who is entirely psychic, and the only one with an unblemished service record. The Grey Knights have more of a need for Chaplains than any other Chapter (as their selection+indoctrination of new recruits, plus monitoring of existing brethren, is so critical to combating their sworn enemy), and the role of Librarians is quite diminished (with everyone being psychic, including the Chaplains, a dedicated wing of psykers within the Chapter seems redundant and at odds with Chapter philosophies).

 

Grey Knights have Chaplains and Apothecaries (and possibly Librarians). They don't have Techmarines though. There's no records of such a thing existing even in BL sources.

 

Fixed :devil:. To clarify;

 

Chaplains: Not in codex, but in 'Grey Knight' series

Apothecaries: Not in codex, but in 'Grey Knight' series

Librarians: Mentioned in 'Dark Millennium', unconfirmed in either codex or BL novels

Tech-Marines: None in existence in any canon sources

[SamaNagol]

Field apothecaries aren't confirmed in the novels. And seeing as Dark Millenium is a rule book, it is canon.

[jeffersonian000]

I would extend that further by saying that the Mechanicus gene-banks are not for creating new Chapters persay (although they can be used for that purpose), they're more designed as a record to judge fresh tithes against.

 

Except that the gene-banks of the Mechanicus are for the creation of new chapters in addition to testing current chapters for genetic drift/mutation as well as chaos taint.

 

 

Yes we do. In the novels (and they are canon), they cut out the gene-seed from their fallen brethren when they can't transport the body itself. If replicating gene-seed was such a trivial matter, they wouldn't bother.

My long spiel about gene-seed was mainly to illustrate the point that even being next-door to Mars, conventional manufacture of gene-seed is too slow and consumes too many resources to be practical, even for a small and elite Chapter like the Grey Knights. Recovery of the progenoids (which we know GK's have) is a much more reliable and quicker way to replenish the Chapter's strength. What works for conventional Astartes would work just as well for Chapter 666.

On a more spiritual note, gene-seed is also tied to the beliefs of the Astartes, with regards to reincarnation. It's a half-truth that by implanting the progenoids of the fallen into new initiates, the dead continue their fight. That cycle of death and re-birth reinforces their belief that even in death, they can still serve the Emperor, and deny His enemies victory. For a Chapter in which faith is so important, that element of their beliefs would be pretty important. It ties in with their metaphysical destiny of joining their soul with the Emperor's when they die.

 

It takes the same amount of time to clone a set of organs from a progenoid retrieved from a fallen Marine as it does from progenoid provided by the Mechanicus. However, the geneseed provided by the Mechanicus has been tested and found true, while a retrieved progenoid still needs to be tested before it can be reused. The only reason for Grey Knights to retrieve the geneseed of a fallen Knight is to prevent it from falling into the hands of Chaos Marines, who would corrupt the ‘seed if/when they attempt be use it. Again, Grey Knights do not require their own ‘seed to be recycled as they can always start off with a pure strain that is untainted by contact with Chaos.

 

 

I disagree. Firstly, the beliefs of the Grey Knights are quite different to that of the Cult Imperialis. Secondly, their Chapter philosophy is at odds with the role of a priest; they focus inwards, on shielding their souls from Chaos.

Also, it makes things quite awkward for a Chapter to use line officers when initiating new recruits, or testing them, or even maintaining the faith of the Chapter brethren. It makes more sense to allow a specialist corps of Chaplains to conduct those duties, letting the line officers manage the actual business of fighting, strategy and tactics. It's important that such individuals have independence from the command hierarchy, because they have to act as a guardian against corruption. Like with gene-seed and Apothecaries, what is true for conventional Chapters would be true for the Grey Knights.

 

The Knights of the Temple of Jerusalem (aka, Knights Templar) where at first soldier monks that became ordained priest of the Catholic Church. Jesuits are soldier priests of the modern Catholic Church. Monks in general are inward focused, not all priests tend to a flock, and in many cultures a monk is a priest. So, in what way do Grey Knights not meet any of these real world examples?

 

Grey Knights are warrior monks like all Space Marines, yet Grey Knights work the power of the Emperor directly through them to fight the forces of the Warp. Every Knight is a combatant first, from the moment he dawns his first set of armour to the day his life is given in service to the Emperor. All of consideration are secondary. Grey Knights not only have faith in the Emperor, they know beyond any doubt that the Emperor’s power runs through them and that they are doing the Emperor’s work.

 

 

Again, I disagree. In the canon, we know they handle their own recruitment+creation of new battle-brothers. This lends credence to the role of Chaplains and Apothecaries, as both are required when conducting recruitment.

 

We know that recruits are gathered and tested. We know that many come from the Black Ships while most come from savage Death Worlds. We know that all were psykers before recruitment. We know that each recruit must pass exacting tests and ordeals before their first set of power armour is worn. We know that Grey Knights do not have scouts, that each novice that survives recruitment and indoctrination will step out on to the battlefield as a full Grey Knight battle brother clad in Aegis Power Armour (a suit only Librarians wear), wielding a Stormbolter (a veteran weapon) and a Nemesis Force Weapon (a personally focus force weapon of great power). We know that a novice is placed with a group of other novices under the command of a Justicar, and that the group will live and die together until all that remain have earned their terminator honors before being given command of their own squad of novices or taking on the duties required of a Grey Knight Terminator. We know that Fast Attack squads and Purgation Squads are veteran Grey Knights that have either not achieved their Terminator Honors or been called upon to wear the armour of a Grey knight Terminator. We know that Brother Captains are to Terminators as Justicars are to power armoured Grey Knights, yet a Grand Master is a Brother Captain that has master his craft and has achieved status as a master in the eyes of his chapter. We know that Grey Knights are under the Ordo Malleus branch of the Inquisition, and that Grey Knight Grand Masters are of equal status to the highest of Inquisitor Lords in the Inquisition as a whole.

 

So, if most Grey Knights are busy defending humanity from the perils of the warp, why wouldn’t the Ordo Malleus recruit the best candidates they can for the one chapter they support which will allow that chapter to train and field their numbers to maximum effect?

 

 

Nothing' quite like the 'I'm more ancient than thou' card, eh? Back when the Wolves hailed from Lucan and 'Nids had diplomats.

 

Well, Genestealers weren't 'Nids back then, Ork and Nid mini's both came with squigs in their blister packs, and there were two different female space marine minis available. And yep, things have changed over time.

 

I will admit that 40k in recent years has tightened up their fluff and have probably the best set of rules so far from a game play point of view. Yet a lot of the problems people keep running into have more to do with how the rules have drifted over the years than with any actual inconsistencies inside the game universe itself. Power fists were defined a long time ago, it’s only their rules that have changed from edition to edition. Yes, there are no female Space Marines; not since 1st Edition, that is.

 

In the case of Grey Knights, they were at first a chapter of Librarians dedicated to fighting daemons. They worn black tactical dreadnought armour (chaplains?) with a built in Aegis matrix (librarians?) and wielded force weapon pole arms that mounted twin-linked boltguns (custodes?). Time has seen them change into silver armoured psychic paladins with wrist mounted stormbolters and force weapons with a variable level of damage potential, be they power armoured or Terminator (and always with an Aegis matrix installed).

 

Do they have Chaplains? The Black Library says that they do, as well as apothecaries and drop pods.

 

Do they have Tech-Marines? Maybe, maybe not.

 

Do they require Chaplains, Apothecaries, and Tech-Marines? Not really, as Grey Knights are not a codex chapter and do not follow the guidelines and traditions of codex chapters.

 

Do we have rules for including Grey Knight Chaplains, Apothecaries, and Tech-Marines? No.

 

I can live with that. Who knows, we may even see some changes in the next few years, if/when a new Grey Knight codex is released.

 

SJ

[Wrath]

A few thoughts, take them or leave them as you will.

 

Regarding the gene-seed issue, aren't the GKs supposed to have a mysterious gene-seed origin? Rumors of getting it direct from the Emperor and all that. It would seem that a rare and especially potent gene-seed would be worth many times more than its weight in gold, certainly worth going to extreme measures to retrieve from fallen GKs. It would also seem to preclude replacement using some common, less potent source (such as, I would assume, any other SM Chapter and even the AM itself).

 

Who is to say that GKs aren't similar to the modern US Marines. Every Marine is a rifleman and must periodically rotate through an infantry unit (unless that changed in the last decade or so; my sources my be a bit old). Why couldn't the GKs do the same? Every GK is a combat Marine. Chaplains could rotate into the deployed units, taking on roles as Brother Captains or Justicars or whatever, and the same could be said of Apothecaries. I suspect the same kind of rotation pattern applies to the Grand Masters, with who sits on the ruling council of the Inquisition.

 

I'd love to see rules for a GK Librarian. Think of the power he'd be wielding! He'd have to cost more rather a lot of points, I suspect, but he'd be able to wreak some extreme devestation on the foes of the Imperium.

[jeffersonian000]

Good points, Wrath, and probably closer to true that many might think.

 

SJ

[- 7eAL -]

Again, I disagree. In the canon, we know they handle their own recruitment+creation of new battle-brothers. This lends credence to the role of Chaplains and Apothecaries, as both are required when conducting recruitment.

So, if most Grey Knights are busy defending humanity from the perils of the warp, why wouldn’t the Ordo Malleus recruit the best candidates they can for the one chapter they support which will allow that chapter to train and field their numbers to maximum effect?

Oh the Ordo Malleus certainly goes about looking for recruits, but Chaplains and Apothecaries are required through all stages of recruitment from recruitment to implantation to training. The Ordo Malleus can only perform the very first stage: recruitment, as in looking for young male psykers and putting them on ships headed to Titan. The remaining stages are performed on Titan and most Ordo Malleus agents are barred access to Grey Knights primary fortress territory on grounds of insufficient purity and preservation of secrecy.

 

It stands to reason that Grey Knight recruitment comes from as many sources as are available - Black Ships visiting planets ever five to ten years, Ordo Malleus Inquisitors crossing candidates in the field, and Grey Knights themselves detecting young recruits.

It takes a psyker to find a psyker in the Warp, for the Grey Knights what better method exists to seek out young men with psychic potential? A Grey Knight Librarian, if indeed one exists, has the power to reach out across the Warp and look into the minds of other psykers - as he lies in bed dreaming, he might go walking across the Warp in search of recruits.

There is a significant advantage to having Grey Knights find at least some of their own recruits. It ensures a certain impression of a young psyker's future: he finds out what it means to be a Grey Knight from an actual Grey Knight, rather than hearing about some ominous force of super Space Marines through an Inquisitor or being dragged around in chains by surly and frightening group of Stormtroopers with a Sister of Silence. It also ensures that the Grey Knights can pinpoint exactly who they want, where they are, and that these boys know someone is coming to meet them: in the space of a few days, a Strike Cruiser swings by hidden in the shadows of a system's moons, and small shuttle pulls out with a handful of serfs and servitors ready to bring the kid to his new home and to meet at least one squad of future Brothers. It ensures that the Grey Knights can filter at least some of their own recruits for purity and honesty and dedication and honour before bringing them back to Titan, or blast their brains to bits with a mere thought if the boys prove too unstable.

 

Black Ships have kids for the Grey Knights? We'll take them.

Inquisitor found a boy blasting bullies with his brain? We'll take him.

But nobody should be able to spot a future Grey Knight quite like another Grey Knight.