GK Chapter Structure

[Grand Master Tyrak]

In the novels (and they are canon),

 

Incorrect. The former CEO of GW, Jack Kirby, is on record as stating that BL's primary purpose is to "write good stories", and secondly to follow the fluff. BL themselves believe themselves to be canon based on the assumption that there is only "the odd discrepancy here and there". Added to that, GW do not enforce a canon policy at all.

 

There is no "true" canon. There is only each of us making our own decisions on which source(s) are more reliable.

 

In general, it's the convention that most recent canon > older canon.

 

Agreed (with the exception of the use of "canon" - "information" would be better IMO). The Grey Knights used to have a Chapter Master - now they have multiple Grand Masters in place of a Chapter Master.

 

It also ensures that the Grey Knights can pinpoint exactly who they want, where they are, and that these boys know someone is coming to meet them: in the space of a few days, a Strike Cruiser swings by hidden in the shadows of a system's moons, and small shuttle pulls out with a handful of serfs and servitors ready to bring the kid to his new home and to meet at least one squad of future Brothers.

 

The only problem I have with that is that those potential recruits will spend those few days on their own, with knowledge of the Grey Knights. Word of their existence would leak out at some point.

[jeffersonian000]

Oh the Ordo Malleus certainly goes about looking for recruits, but Chaplains and Apothecaries are required through all stages of recruitment from recruitment to implantation to training. The Ordo Malleus can only perform the very first stage: recruitment, as in looking for young male psykers and putting them on ships headed to Titan. The remaining stages are performed on Titan and most Ordo Malleus agents are barred access to Grey Knights primary fortress territory on grounds of insufficient purity and preservation of secrecy.

 

My question to you is: what exactly do Chaplains and Apothecaries do during the recruitment process? Does it not stand to reason that Grey Knights use the same method of recruitment, processing, and indoctrination that the original Terran Space Marine Legionnaires received before the first of the Primarchs was rediscovered? The Emperor was still alive and well when the Grey Knights were order to be formed, and the facilities used to create the first Space Marines was still available for use at that time. Both Chaplains and Apothecaries are Codex institutions, not Legion traditions. Why must the Grey Knights be pigeonholed into the same template as Codex Astartes when they are in fact not Codex Astartes? Grey Knights are the Last Legion, beholden only to the Emperor their Father and the Inquisition their custodians.

 

And where is it stated that the Ordo Malleus is barred from Titan?

 

SJ

[Brother-Captain Laen]

Wow, Reclusiarch Darius, you seem to be assuming that I don't read. Yes, I'm very aware of how geneseed is cultivated and grown, yet I'm also very aware that codex chapters tithe their geneseed to the Mechanicus rather than draw from the Mechanicus geneseed banks. Grey Knights are both in the same system as Mars and have no restrictions of their numbers outside of their exceptionally taxing recruiting process. We see no mention of Knight geneseed recovery. It does stand to reason that their geneseed is neither tithed nor retrieved from their fallen; it is most likely provided fresh from the Mechanicus as needed.

 

On Techmarines, Grey Knights seem to fall into the same gray area as Adepta Sororitas in that neither group has dedicated tech adepts in their ranks yet both groups fulfill a role requiring extended missions away from re-supply and refurbishment. We can assume, and rightly so, that Grey Knights (much like Sisters of Battle) maintain their personal equipment with skills they've each acquired when first inducted into the mysteries of their order. This also lends credence to the concept that each Grey Knight is a priest of the Cult Imperialus, with Justicars leading their Knights in prayer as Brother Captains and Grand Masters see to their brethren's spiritual needs as a whole.

 

Functionally, I see the Gray Knight hierarchy unfolding from the Grand Master, who sends and receives telepathic messages to his peers and his subordinate Brother Captains while maintaining the spiritual center of his followers, then to the Brother Captains who maintain communications with their Grand Master superior while seeing to their subordinate Justicars and Brother Knights, and then on to the Justicars themselves who see to the sacred rights of their brotherhood while continuing the training and spiritual guidance of their squads. Add to this the divine rituals of maintenance and purifying of their personal armor and armaments that each and every Grey knight follows daily, and we begin to see a chapter of marines that is focused on combating their foe above all else while leaving the minutia of other chapters behind.

 

This also means that Grey knights would not manage their own recruitment, which is most likely overseen by the Ordo Malleus and their relationship with the Adeptus Terra and Adeptus Mechanicus. This is a significant break from the Codex Astartes, yet Grey Knights are no Codex Marines and in no way follow the teachings of Roboute Guilliman.

 

SJ

 

*Note: I started playing 40k with Rogue Trader, and remember when Guilliman was an Imperial Guard commander, the Ultramarines where a 3rd founding chapter, and the only green Marines were Salamanders as the Dark Angels wore black. As such, my views are a little skewed and should in no way supersede the views of anyone else; this are just my musings on a hobby I’ve followed on and off for the better part of 20+ years.

 

Could not agree more. Reading the Gray Knight Omnibus now and the author makes references to each of the knights saying their own prayers and seeing to their own sanity in their own ways. As well as repairing their own armor and blessing it. They also have a really hard time collecting their dead because most end up in pieces and tiny bits...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Field apothecaries aren't confirmed in the novels. And seeing as Dark Millenium is a rule book, it is canon.

 

Well, the unique deployment methods of the Grey Knights don't require Apothecaries. They either succeed and thus are able to recover their dead (they go to much greater lengths than other Chapters, mainly because Aegis suits etc are almost-irreplaceable relics, and secondly because they want to bring the body back to Titan), or they fail and drag the bodies to a suitable teleport location/Thunderhawk extraction. They don't conduct extended sieges, or fight alone on the ground for any length of time. As such, they can afford to keep their few Apothecaries out of active deployment.

 

'Dark Millenium' can be canon, but the background has advanced since then. Equally, it used to be canon that GK's only deployed in TDA. IMO (and thats all it is), GK Librarians seem a redundant concept, and the lack of any current supporting canon makes me think it's a retcon (just as TDA has been retconned to be for veterans, while there are now power-armoured brothers). Of course, I could be wrong ;) .

Except that the gene-banks of the Mechanicus are for the creation of new chapters in addition to testing current chapters for genetic drift/mutation as well as chaos taint.

 

I think we're in agreement :) . My point is that conventional, Mechanicus manufacturing of gene-seed (through vat-clones etc) is simply too slow to supply a Chapter. It makes more sense that the GK's would handle their own gene-seed production (like every other Chapter, by cutting them out of mature/dead battle-brothers).

 

It takes the same amount of time to clone a set of organs from a progenoid retrieved from a fallen Marine as it does from progenoid provided by the Mechanicus. However, the geneseed provided by the Mechanicus has been tested and found true, while a retrieved progenoid still needs to be tested before it can be reused. The only reason for Grey Knights to retrieve the geneseed of a fallen Knight is to prevent it from falling into the hands of Chaos Marines, who would corrupt the ‘seed if/when they attempt be use it. Again, Grey Knights do not require their own ‘seed to be recycled as they can always start off with a pure strain that is untainted by contact with Chaos.

 

True, but I think the Ordo Malleus would prefer the autonomy of having progenoids+harvesting, as opposed to being reliant on Mars (hey, it fell once to Chaos). I have no doubt the Mechanicus helped out in forging the 1st generation of Knights, but since the Chapter needs secrecy (and thereforce autonomy). I just don't see a need to break with the process that worked for the Legions and now the Chapters. Progenoids and their harvesting are central to the faith and autonomy of a Chapter, it would seem unnecessary to involve the Mechanicus on an ongoing basis.

The Knights of the Temple of Jerusalem (aka, Knights Templar) where at first soldier monks that became ordained priest of the Catholic Church. Jesuits are soldier priests of the modern Catholic Church. Monks in general are inward focused, not all priests tend to a flock, and in many cultures a monk is a priest. So, in what way do Grey Knights not meet any of these real world examples?

 

Real world has nothing to do with 40k. Your conception of Grey Knights as 'priests' doesn't match their beliefs or style. They are warrior-monks, like most Astartes. The actual task of instilling faith and preaching the particulars of their Chapter beliefs/philosophy (especially to new recruits) is left to Chaplains and their acolytes. Chaplains are very much warrior-priests, but unlike Ministorum priests (who, by and large, go by the Imperial Creed etc), what they preach/believe varies enormously from Chapter to Chapter.

I'm not saying a monk cannot be a priest, or vice-versa, but in the context of 40k, Astartes (with the exceptions of Chaplains, and at a stretch the Black Templars) are not priests.

 

Aegis Power Armour (a suit only Librarians wear),

 

No, the Aegis suit is unique to the Grey Knights. No one else has the technology/need/training to utilize it. It's as unique as their nemesis force weapons.

We know that Fast Attack squads and Purgation Squads are veteran Grey Knights that have either not achieved their Terminator Honors or been called upon to wear the armour of a Grey knight Terminator.

 

The fast attack squads are simply additional reinforcements coming in via teleport. They're just 'Tactical' squads, in the same way as the Troop squads.

Purgation squads are interesting, as I suspect they do contain mostly veterans (as you said, new recruits typically deploy as part of a Tactical squad). They might also contain new recruits who have been earmarked due to their proficiency with ranged weapons.

The Terminator veterans are most likely Justicars prior to being promoted (some power-armoured brothers never get promoted to the Terminator elite, simply because of the lack of Aegis TDA), although Dvorn went from line warrior to Terminator bodyguard directly.

 

So, if most Grey Knights are busy defending humanity from the perils of the warp, why wouldn’t the Ordo Malleus recruit the best candidates they can for the one chapter they support which will allow that chapter to train and field their numbers to maximum effect?

 

Because the Grey Knights require autonomy, even from their supposed masters. The Ordo Malleus isn't a monolithic entity, it's more like a collection of like-minded investigators and daemonhunters. Their focus is on rooting out taint and exposing it, then cleansing it by manouvring other Imperial forces to get the job done. More to the point, there are many different factions and rivalries within the Ordo Malleus, and they often engage in convert warfare/sabotage.

It makes much more sense that the Grey Knights would handle their own recruitment, testing, training, indoctrination etc, as they are best placed to do so. It also places them out of the reach of any one faction of the Ordo Malleus, making them a completely loyal third-party that is hard to corrupt to other ends (although Alaric did get used, he still thwarted the plans of Chaos, because he wasn't relying on the Ordo Malleus).

Do they require Chaplains, Apothecaries, and Tech-Marines? Not really, as Grey Knights are not a codex chapter and do not follow the guidelines and traditions of codex chapters.

 

Being non-codex doesn't mean you don't still need Chaplains or Apothecaries. Simply by being Astartes, they require Apothecaries (for both medical attention of the brethren, and implanting/monitoring the development of initiates). By dedicating themselves to fighting the raw power of the warp wherever it manifests, their need for Chaplains is perhaps greater than most other Chapters (especially for the new recruits, who need that unbreakable core of faith to build themselves around).

I reckon they can get away with not having Tech-Marines, for two reasons. Firstly, their armour pool is small (maybe a dozen Landraiders at most, with a couple of Dreadnoughts), and being right next door to Mars (plus being next door to the Malleus empire of Saturn) means logistical and technical support is the best possible. The Grey Knights very rarely deploy their armour/walkers in any case, as they are unsuited to teleport strikes. The second reason is that the Cult of the Ommnisah would compromise the faith of a Grey Knight (it's Emperor or nothing).

I'm sure there are Knights with skill in the driving+maintenance of Landraiders, but nothing to equal a true Tech-Marine of a conventional Chapter.

 

Who is to say that GKs aren't similar to the modern US Marines. Every Marine is a rifleman and must periodically rotate through an infantry unit (unless that changed in the last decade or so; my sources my be a bit old). Why couldn't the GKs do the same? Every GK is a combat Marine. Chaplains could rotate into the deployed units, taking on roles as Brother Captains or Justicars or whatever, and the same could be said of Apothecaries. I suspect the same kind of rotation pattern applies to the Grand Masters, with who sits on the ruling council of the Inquisition.

 

The canon. The Chapter organisation is quite different to a modern military, or even other Chapters;

- Tier 1: Battle-brother (anyone who makes it through the induction, training, implantation of gene-seed etc)

- Tier 1.5: Landraider drivers, Apothecarium acolytes, Reclusiam acolytes

- Tier 2: Justicar (squad leader, veteran)

- Tier 2.5: Apothecaries (could be Tier 2 or even Tier 3, but here is where they likely sit, due to seperation from normal hierarchy)

- Tier 3: Terminator bodyguard (most probably Justicars, although can be promoted from Tier 1)

- Tier 4: Brother-Captains (promoted from the Terminator elite, lead strike forces in the field)

- Tier 4.5: Chaplains (could be Tier 5, but as they stand apart from the normal hierarchy, here is likely where they sit)

- Tier 5: Grandmaster (most senior rank, perhaps only 6-10 in existence)

 

The '.5' tiers are semi-canonical, as I'm unsure as where they'd really fit (best guess basically).

 

But nobody should be able to spot a future Grey Knight quite like another Grey Knight.

 

Very nice breakdown Zeal, exactly what I was trying to say. But this more than anything else sums up what I mean. My thanks :)

 

There is no "true" canon. There is only each of us making our own decisions on which source(s) are more reliable.

 

Fair point, it is a subjective universe. However, I would contend that officially-sanctioned novels, codicies etc (as opposed to fanon/uninformed speculation) holds more weight. So long as we ignore certain atrocities of writing (Goto :) ), I'm prepared to say that BL novels are a useful source of background. They don't hold the weight of a codex perhaps, but useful nonetheless.

 

The only problem I have with that is that those potential recruits will spend those few days on their own, with knowledge of the Grey Knights. Word of their existence would leak out at some point.

 

Well sure, but the Grey Knights are a complete unknown to most outside the Inquisition/forces of Chaos. So, the locals would simply say that Astartes came, took their best psyker boys, and left. No one would recognise the Chapter heraldry, but thats hardly unusual with nearly 1,000 conventional Chapters, some of which remain unknown to the wider Imperium (there have been so many Foundings, so many records destroyed etc). Remember, they like recruiting from deathworlds and primitive backwaters, where the raw forces of nature make hardier recruits.

 

My question to you is: what exactly do Chaplains and Apothecaries do during the recruitment process? Does it not stand to reason that Grey Knights use the same method of recruitment, processing, and indoctrination that the original Terran Space Marine Legionnaires received before the first of the Primarchs was rediscovered? The Emperor was still alive and well when the Grey Knights were order to be formed, and the facilities used to create the first Space Marines was still available for use at that time. Both Chaplains and Apothecaries are Codex institutions, not Legion traditions. Why must the Grey Knights be pigeonholed into the same template as Codex Astartes when they are in fact not Codex Astartes? Grey Knights are the Last Legion, beholden only to the Emperor their Father and the Inquisition their custodians.

 

No, Chaplains are a Legion institution, as are Apothecaries. Both pre-date the Heresy by a substantial margin (Chaplains were present in many Legions prior to the Chaplains Edict, which just formalized the rank).

 

And where is it stated that the Ordo Malleus is barred from Titan?

 

They're not, but it's the home base of the Chapter. It's their asteroid/moon base, the Chapter controls it. The Ordo Malleus can come and go, but no Inquisitor lives there.

Could not agree more. Reading the Gray Knight Omnibus now and the author makes references to each of the knights saying their own prayers and seeing to their own sanity in their own ways. As well as repairing their own armor and blessing it. They also have a really hard time collecting their dead because most end up in pieces and tiny bits...

 

I'm not disputing Grey Knights have greater faith than most conventional Astartes, nor that they have to develop their core of faith beyond that of most conventional Chaplains. It is a mild form of insanity, because they need unconventional mind barriers to completely block out Chaos.

However, that doesn't diminish the need for Chaplains, if anything it makes their job harder and even more critical. Instilling that hardcore faith into new recruits, and watching over their battle-brothers, is a tough job in an entire Chapter of psykers.

Sure, most missions the Knights undertake pit them against forces that either break against their wards+Aegis suit, or obliterate them, but there would still be mutiliated survivors, remnant pieces of armour etc. Also, the medical attention for survivors, and the implanation of new recruits, require Apothecary specialists.

[Brother-Captain Laen]

I do agree with almost everything you have said Darius. But, in all honesty I just don't see the knights having Chaplains. Each says their prayers and are led by their superior's faith. So if you really wanted to get down to it... I would agree that each and every gray knight has the ability to act as any chaplain would.

 

I also can't honestly see the gray knights harvesting seed from a fallen brother. The seed could have become tainted.. and why take the risk? Granted that no Gray Knight has succumbed to chaos.. but that does not mean that chaos cannot taint the body/remains of a dead knight.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I do agree with almost everything you have said Darius. But, in all honesty I just don't see the knights having Chaplains. Each says their prayers and are led by their superior's faith. So if you really wanted to get down to it... I would agree that each and every gray knight has the ability to act as any chaplain would.

 

How does that make them different to regular Astartes though? All Space Marines pray, often in squads prior to battle (lead by Sergeant etc). The critical difference is that while faith makes a Space Marine a superior warrior to a traitor Astarte or lesser warriors, for a Grey Knight faith is both a shield and a weapon.

 

I think you might have the wrong impression of what a Grey Knight actually entails. These guys aren't about spreading the word, preaching to the masses, bringing the Emperor's word to the unfaithful etc (which is something the Black Templars might do a lot of). Grey Knights only get sent in (most of the time) when there is a warp breach and daemons spill forth (or at least, there is the threat of such an event). I don't imagine they interact much with anyone except their fellow battle-brothers and Malleus Inquisitors. Their faith is a personal thing.

 

I also can't honestly see the gray knights harvesting seed from a fallen brother. The seed could have become tainted.. and why take the risk? Granted that no Gray Knight has succumbed to chaos.. but that does not mean that chaos cannot taint the body/remains of a dead knight.

 

It's pretty unlikely. Even dead, a Grey Knight has hexagrammic wards burned into his skin (I think even his bones, although that might be wrong). His armour and very existence is inimical to Chaos, because he represents a sentient being who is incorruptible. Out of any Space Marine, a Grey Knight's progenoids stand the best chance of surviving untainted.

Anyway, once recovered the gene-seed would of course be tested rigorously for such taint. That role has to be fufilled by a non-combatant, or at least a specialist whose skills are not universal within the Chapter. Since before the Heresy, that medical support role has been played by Apothecaries.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Aegis Power Armour (a suit only Librarians wear),

No, the Aegis suit is unique to the Grey Knights. No one else has the technology/need/training to utilize it. It's as unique as their nemesis force weapons.

 

Aegis Suits used to be Librarian-only, but that has now been dropped. However, the existence of Aegis robes has not been countered. They were just as rare (if not more) than Aegis Suits, and simply consisted of all the psychic protection gear worked into clothes. The Grey Knights are the only ones to combined Aegis technology and power armour/TDA.

 

Firstly, their armour pool is small (maybe a dozen Landraiders at most, with a couple of Dreadnoughts),

 

Dreadnoughts I might agree on, but they maintain more Land Raiders than a Codex Chapter. Whatever number you end up with, it's going to be more than a dozen.

 

However, I would contend that officially-sanctioned novels, codicies etc (as opposed to fanon/uninformed speculation) holds more weight. So long as we ignore certain atrocities of writing (Goto ), I'm prepared to say that BL novels are a useful source of background.

 

I will agree with you. However, that doesn't help us when we encounter discrepancies and contradictions in the officially sanctioned material.

 

No, Chaplains are a Legion institution, as are Apothecaries. Both pre-date the Heresy by a substantial margin (Chaplains were present in many Legions prior to the Chaplains Edict, which just formalized the rank).

 

You're both right, in a sense. The Chaplains of the Legions were different from the Codex Chaplains in that the Legions never worshipped the Emperor in any way. The Chapters do, although not as a god. The role of the Chaplain evolved during and after the Heresy.

 

That does lead to an interesting question as to whether the Grey Knights worship the Emperor as a god, but that's for another time.

 

And where is it stated that the Ordo Malleus is barred from Titan?

 

They're not, but it's the home base of the Chapter. It's their asteroid/moon base, the Chapter controls it. The Ordo Malleus can come and go, but no Inquisitor lives there.

 

Agreed. The Ordo Malleus could never be barred from Titan, given that the Librarium Daemonica is located there. Then again, you don't want fallible Inquisitors getting their hands on exact details of the Grey Knight training procedures, or living on top of the largest repository of Daemonic knowledge in Imperial hands. There's just too much risk.

 

I also can't honestly see the gray knights harvesting seed from a fallen brother. The seed could have become tainted.. and why take the risk? Granted that no Gray Knight has succumbed to chaos.. but that does not mean that chaos cannot taint the body/remains of a dead knight.

 

The Ordo Malleus has the power to cleanse Daemonic taint from entire continents, and planets if necessary. Cleansing gene-seed is well within their capabilities.

[Eddie Orlock]

You know, last time we argued this around here, I dug up a fair amount of old canon that supported the Grey Knights being nigh identical to an ordinary chapter outside the first company.

 

While that discussion was about non-psychic Knights, it did touch upon this topic.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Dreadnoughts I might agree on, but they maintain more Land Raiders than a Codex Chapter. Whatever number you end up with, it's going to be more than a dozen.

 

See, I dunno. Most other Chapters do not have many Landraiders, and almost all of them are relics. I would think Grey Knight Landraiders would be even rarer, as they incorporate weapons (going by Forge World rules at least) that regular LR do not have (psycannons, flamerstorm incinerators etc). More than a dozen perhaps, but maybe 20-30 would be a good rough estimate. Remember, they rarely use them, and each vehicle is a precious relic.

 

I will agree with you. However, that doesn't help us when we encounter discrepancies and contradictions in the officially sanctioned material.

 

Well, not in and of itself. You also need a bit of common sense, and sometimes make educated guesses. Like the 'most recent usually > older material' principle etc.

 

That does lead to an interesting question as to whether the Grey Knights worship the Emperor as a god

 

Hmmm...that sounds like an interesting discussion. Might start a thread elsewhere about just that...

You know, last time we argued this around here, I dug up a fair amount of old canon that supported the Grey Knights being nigh identical to an ordinary chapter outside the first company.

While that discussion was about non-psychic Knights, it did touch upon this topic.

 

As I said before, a good rule of thumb is 'new > old'. We've had a codex and updated background published since 'Dark Millenium' etc, and the newer canon suggests a far different picture. Hence my skepticism about GK Librarians (and my suspicion being they since rolled the job of Librarian into the role of Brother-Captain/Grandmaster, as both of those characters are the only Knights with actual psychic powers, game-wise).

Non-psychic Grey Knights is a complete contradiction in terms. They are required to be psykers in order to be recruited, and to harness their power to both shield their soul and power their nemesis force weapons.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I will agree with you. However, that doesn't help us when we encounter discrepancies and contradictions in the officially sanctioned material.

Well, not in and of itself. You also need a bit of common sense, and sometimes make educated guesses. Like the 'most recent usually > older material' principle etc.

 

One person's common sense is usually different to someone else's. :yes:

 

More than a dozen perhaps, but maybe 20-30 would be a good rough estimate.

 

That sounds about right to me (although I might go and look up how many LRs Codex Chapters have).

 

You know, last time we argued this around here, I dug up a fair amount of old canon that supported the Grey Knights being nigh identical to an ordinary chapter outside the first company.

While that discussion was about non-psychic Knights, it did touch upon this topic.

As I said before, a good rule of thumb is 'new > old'. We've had a codex and updated background published since 'Dark Millenium' etc, and the newer canon suggests a far different picture. Hence my skepticism about GK Librarians (and my suspicion being they since rolled the job of Librarian into the role of Brother-Captain/Grandmaster, as both of those characters are the only Knights with actual psychic powers, game-wise).

Non-psychic Grey Knights is a complete contradiction in terms. They are required to be psykers in order to be recruited, and to harness their power to both shield their soul and power their nemesis force weapons.

 

Agreed. However, Forgeworld's Imperial Armour Vol. 2 supports the Codex Organisation theory. In the Dreadnought section, it is implied that there is only one Grand Master (an outright contradiction with the Codex) and only ten Brother-Captains (somewhat illogical but not an outright contradiction). To my mind, that's a rare error on Forgeworld's part (they're usually good at following existing fluff), but what do you guys think?

 

I will agree with Reclusiarch Darius on non-psychic Grey Knights. In their current incarnation, a non-psychic recruit simply could not make it into the Grey Knights. He wouldn't have the starting criteria.