Best Icon for a CSM Squad

[Logain the Ranger]

I'm new to chaos and bought a bare-bones force; Terminator Lord, five man Terminator squad, and two 10 man CSM squads. Now I'm wondering what icon would work best for them. I figure since they will be a mid-range/sit on a objective troops that Nurgle or Tzeentch would be the best for this. Though something says Khorne or Slaanesh as if they get assaulted they can hold their own that much better. I'll go into a little detail about my perceived pros and cons of each.

 

Nurgle

pro: Toughness 5 makes them very strong against small arms fire and CC.

con: With IG especially, heavy weaponry pretty much makes T5 useless.

 

Tzeentch

pro: As stated above heavy weaponry is big right now and a invulnerable save helps protect them from big weapons. Also objectives in the open.

con: If they are a sit on a objective unit then they will most likely be in cover.

 

Khorne

pro: A lot of attacks in close combat means that you could resist assaults better.

con: This shouldn't be a squad that gets into CC. Also if you lose most of the guys then it gets less effective.

 

Slaanesh

pro: I5 means that you go on time with commanders and faster then normal troops. So you should lose less from the enemy.

con: As above this shouldn't be a squad that gets into CC.

 

In my mind it would be between Nurgle and Tzeentch. Your thoughts?

[Jeffy.Gee]

You forgot the Icon of Chaos Undivided.

IoCU is the cheapest by far and easily the best value for points.

 

JG

[minigun762]

For CSMs the choice usually goes like this.

 

Icon of Chaos Glory

Khorne

Slaanesh

Tzeentch

Nurgle

 

The reason is that IoCG is cheap and helps make up for not having ATSKNF. Khorne is almost always useful since you'll be in HtH combat at some point. Slaanesh is a meta-choice. Its good with I4/I5 units but useless otherwise, its also fairly cheap. Tzeentch isn't that powerful because of all the 4+ cover saves around. Its not horrible though in HtH combat if all you fight is Banshees or Terminators. Nurgle is far and away the worst choice because Plague Marines are much better point for point.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Here's the breakdown:

 

First, all Icons have the weakness of relying on the icon bearer staying alive. If he dies, the whole squad loses the bonus. Also, Icon marines are often going to be worse than taking the equivilent cult marine choice.

 

Second, all icons (except chaos glory) leave you with an expensive squad that lacks fearless or ATSKNF like loyalists have. This alone is enough to make icons other than Chaos Glory not worth using 90% of the time. As chaos marines you don't get a whole lot of squads. Having one run off the board from shooting, or getting run down in combat too soon WILL lose you games on a regular basis.

 

Nurgle: You've got the pros and cons right. The big issue here is that plague marines are simply better, every time. A 10 man squad with icon of nurgle is 200 points. You pay 5 points per model for the +1 toughness. A 10 man plague marine squad is 230 points. For an extra 3 points per model above the icon marines you get Feel No Pain (makes them twice as hard to kill with small arms and gives a save against ap 3), Fearless (this is huge), Blight Grenades (also huge), and the ability to take 2 specials without taking a full 10 man squad. You lose 1 initiative, Which doesn't really matter, as you deny your enemy their charge attack, and 50% of your squad's killing power comes from an initiative 1 power fist anyhow.

 

So in short, there is no reason to ever take icon of nurgle over plague marines.

 

Tzeentch: Thousand Sons and icon marines are different enough that i'm not going to compare them. The main problem with Icon of Tzeentch is that cover isn't very hard to get. If there was less cover in the game, and if chaos marines weren't an assault based army, this icon would have a use. But as it is now it is too expensive, doesn't give a good enough invul, and still leaves the squad without fearless. Only take it for fluff reasons.

 

Khorne: You are correct that the increased attacks can help win combats. However, on average it only increases the squads kills vs MEQs by about 1 guy. A 10 man CSM squad with a powerfist averages 2-3 kills in close combat. With Icon of Khorne you'll average 3-4. This is rarely going to make the difference between winning and losing a fight. CC squads that lack fearless or a moral re-roll are also simply a bad idea. Icon of Khorne marines are decent in CC but they arn't going to compete with enemy CC specialists and will be run down by them. Also, Berserkers are better in all but 1 situation. Like plague marines, berserkers only cost a few more points per model but you gain fearless, WS 5 (hits on 3's instead of 4's on most enemies), and furies charge. You lose the ability to take special weapons, and you lose your bolters. The situation where icon of Khorne marines can outperform berserkers is a squad with double flamers getting to shoot and assault vs a swarm army (orks, gaunts, IG). However, berserkers are hardly bad at this. Unless you know you are going to fight a swarm army, zerks are better to take.

 

You are also right about the squad not wanting to get into CC. Vanilla marine squads are fairly strong in CC, but we have better assault specialists. Usually you want your vanilla marines packing double meltas so that you can threaten armor with them as well. A lot of the power of this squad comes from its flexibility. Icon of Khorne is wasted if you arn't assaulting, so is not the ideal choice.

 

Slaanesh: Pretty much the same situation as Icon of Khorne. +1 initiative isn't bad, its just not very good either. And since berserkers can get +1 initiatve on the charge from Furious Charge they are still the best all around assault unit. Noise Marines are a better anti infantry shooting option if you want a shooty squad. There just isn't much reason to use this except maybe on lightning claw terminators in a land raider.

 

Chaos Glory: This is really the remaining choice. Its not uber, but all the other options arn't great. A moral Re-roll isn't as good as fearless in some situations, but is better in others as well. Also, its dirt cheap and still gives you a teleport homer. A 10 man squad with a powerfist, Chaos Glory, and 2 meltas in a rhino is the standard vanilla CSM squad. Its solid, flexible, and just all around a great unit.

 

 

Anyhow, hope that helps. I'm sure we'll see some other opinions in here, but this is the general concensus of icons.

[chillin]

The only icon I ever take on csm's is IoCG. Pretty much assures that your csm's will never run. In some ways it's better then fearless.

As for other icons on csm's there is usually a better choice. IoK; brzrkrs are better. IoN is too expensive and PM's get fnp & blight grenades.

IoTz has to be the worst & most over priced of them all. I can maybe see someone making a point for IoS, it's only 10 pts more then IoCG and +1 int is good against most armies. Still, I never use it myself

Other units might benefit from icons more then csm's, like raptors b/c there is no option to take brzrkrs w/ jumppacks for example so IoK is the best you can get.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Other units might benefit from icons more then csm's, like raptors b/c there is no option to take brzrkrs w/ jumppacks for example so IoK is the best you can get.

 

Possessed also come with fearless so they are a whole different can of worms.

[Logain the Ranger]

I've played Marines so much that ATKNF is pretty much second nature, so I believe I will end up going with personal icons on both squads. I plan on running one to two 'Zerker squads as well.

[chillin]

I've played Marines so much that ATKNF is pretty much second nature, so I believe I will end up going with personal icons on both squads.

 

Not sure what that means...csm's don't have ATSKNF.

Giving person icon instead of IoCG makes no sense b/c then you are giving a Ld reroll in order to save 5 pts.

[Corpse.]

I feel the icons are more role-basis on whats in the rest of the army rather then as a standalone choice. Combination is where the icons come into the gold for me when trying to make the best out of them.

 

Glory for the squads that push in mass. Since its cheap I add 1 or 2 marines compared to the others. Which means more numeric durability when I try to get as many meltaguns and fist+combi-flamer champs inside units sporting rhinos.

 

When I set a role, like having havocs with 4 meltaguns/flamers I toss in the icon of khorne or nurgle. Nurgle icon purely because I plan on getting them into melee where standard str4 and str3 is very very common and it will make great use of the icon. Especially versus str3 where 1/3rd becomes 1/6th on wounds.

 

Statistics.

Slaanesh adds 1/4th of the total stat. (roughly 1/6th of all the models have a initiative of 4 and 5 where it matters, +1 to out-run the enemy is vital)

Nurgle adds 1/4th of the total stat. (Dice are on 1:6 ratio, you add 1/6th of an effective stat when it matters, and str 6 hits are now affected)

Khorne adds 1/2 or 1/3rd-charging of a total stat. (Akward compared to the others it adds volume rather then statistics or ratio%, its like getting free models in mass of use)

Tzeentch adds a new stat that is 1/3rd of the dice roll (or actually +2 stats of 5 and 6) granting a whole new use.

Glory adds the use of being stable in a different way without fearlessness.

(Edit, quick note, Tzeentch adds +1 stat to Possessed/Terminators, Nurgle adds +1/5th of a stat for bikes while Khorne adds extra special weapon attacks for champs and so forth)

 

So by the numbers while ignoring the total cost of each icon and depending on the role of the unit Slaanesh icon wins out for cost to stat benefit, while khorne wins out in mass, nurgle wins out in practibility and most use since not all weapons are str7+ to ignore the icons benefits, tzeentch icon wins out for adding use to the unit then glory wins out for the basis of being useful when the time is right.

 

Its pointless to have a melee icon when you dont get the guys into melee and likewise with a tzeentch icon having the unit shot down with low AP weapons and same for nurgle with high strength weapons that ignore the icons benefits altogether, while the glory icon fails to things like psyker battle squads and grotesques involved in combat(or just outnumbered so badly you need a 4 or less to make the check).

 

The more expencive the icon, the higher the body count required to make actual use of it. Since the squad will more than likely be at ineffective numeral strength having to be inside a rhino, you often dont see tzeentch and nurgle icons being tossed around easily. While in effect they are the best icons for 14+ models no matter which icon you want to pick aside from glory - where having to lose 7+ models makes for the best use of glory.

 

Thats my thought on it anyways. My fav combinations are:

 

Basic CSM: Glory or Khorne with rhino or Tzeentch(15+ models) sometimes with a rhino just for mobile wall protection ensuring I get the charge by being a nuisance with tank shock.

 

Chosen: Glory when small squadded or Slaanesh when outflanking with five twin-claws (Very effective, arguably a type of termicide as a melee deterrant).

 

Havocs: Khorne with short range weapons and fist, Tzeentch when long range equipped, glory when they are the only toughness models seen when deployed(because of all those long range non-transport killers). Nurgle explained already in a introduction example.

 

Raptors: Nurgle by far, 22.5 point "bikes" is hard to pass up, removing turbo boost and combi-bolters for extra melee weapon and the ability to deep strike is worth losing 2.5 points at 20 models strong. Really, I find it hard to use anything other then nurgle on these guys after I got hooked, I used to use Khorne and Glory but its all nurgle icon now.

 

Bikes: Point for point at 10 models its somewhat comparible to having melee wraithguards in a way if the comparisons are traded around it seems somewhat equal. So in that spirit, I dont use any other icon or smaller squads, there are better choices elsewhere if I dont run 9-10 bikes with IoN for toughness 6. Instant death does not matter when its single wound models and paying 38 points per T6 wound its somewhat comparible to a zilla durability.

 

Terminators: Normally none or Glory/Khorne, I prefer to keep them somewhat cheap and to the point of a role rather then a multi-tasking unit that walks around.

 

Possessed: Tzeentch - for being "terminators with 4+ inv and 3+ armor" that screen the army if I dont use thousand sons - and I normally dont, I like melee units in front taking the charges when I get into 24" range with the units behind them. Khorne icon when I actually make them a good part of the combat, having 5 attacks per model on the charge with the power weapon roll (power weapon is ADDED to their gear which they have a close combat weapon already). In certain army makes I must have possessed due to my powerfists being singled out by sniper/psychic powers etc where volumes of str5 is the only saving grace.

 

 

Those are my preferences when picking things besides my growing plague marine dominant chaos. Fearlessness and the ability to transport HQ's alongside 9 and less models out of a rhino/raider keeping the 2 meltaguns is vital, on top of their durability and 4+ cover save using the rhinos effectively for cover(+bolter/melee ability unlike spamming zerkers). With the growing need to keep surviving troops for objectives, and remain effective when that is not the objective, meanwhile killpoints and high durable units go hand and hand.

[Logain the Ranger]

I've played Marines so much that ATKNF is pretty much second nature, so I believe I will end up going with personal icons on both squads.

 

Not sure what that means...csm's don't have ATSKNF.

Giving person icon instead of IoCG makes no sense b/c then you are giving a Ld reroll in order to save 5 pts.

 

I meant loyalist marines and the IoCG not the personal icon.

[Magnus Thane]

I usually go for Chaos Glory and Khorne.

My 2 assault orientated squads have Khorn's. They have a plasme gun + flamer.

My third squad hs Glory and is more long distance orientated.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I usually go for Chaos Glory and Khorne.

My 2 assault orientated squads have Khorn's. They have a plasme gun + flamer.

My third squad hs Glory and is more long distance orientated.

 

Why would you put a plasma gun on an assault oriented squad?

 

How can you have a long distance oriented chaos marine squad?

[Magnus Thane]

Long distance as in: i shoot with it.

It's usually a squad with some anti tank, or anti infantry support. And/or aimed at holding a point.

 

As for the Plasmagun. It's a remnant of the past so to speak.

[Vissah]

Its nice reading this cause I had the same question.

I have recently gone Renegade and I use three squads of ten CSM with Melta, Flamer and Power Fist in RHino's to go onto the field and take those objectives and to take the fight to the enemy most of the time.

I also use a unit of 8 Bikers wich I know is expensive but I just love Bikers and I know how to use them since I played loyalist beofre I turned to the side that is right :P

 

Now should I also get IoCG on my three CSM squads one rides with my Sorcerer and Bikers or should I just leave them blank like they are now.

I use Loyalist models since I like them better so I just use the backpack standard and paint the Icon on it :(

 

Does it really makes that much difference when you give those three squads IoCG cause most of the time they will be up close and in CC, cause of you lose Combat big enough you wont make the morale roll even if you got the Icon.

 

So basicly my question is the same is it worth it to pay 30 points extra for the reroll for those three units?

[chillin]

I use three squads of ten CSM with Melta, Flamer and Power Fist in RHino's

Now should I also get IoCG on my three CSM squads

So basicly my question is the same is it worth it to pay 30 points extra for the reroll for those three units?

 

That's my basic squad too, but I do use IoCG

Ld 10 is pretty good by itself, so if you are not having a problem with you csm breaking you might not need it. But I'll tell ya that it's pretty EZ to roll even as low as a 7 with a reroll.

I think IoCG is well worth it, esp in squads that you know are going to be in hth.

[JamesI]

Chaos Glory is the only icon I use. After too many units broke and ran off the table (often taking my Tzeentch Sorceror with them), everyone gets Chaos Glory to help stay put.

[Vissah]

Thanx for the fast answer chillin Im gonna fix those banners on there backpacks as fast as I can lol

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Its worth it. CSM are pretty solid in CC. The majority of fights you lose will only be by a few models unless you are facing really tough CC specialists (in which case you've done something wrong letting them fight your basic csms, or you are swarming them, or you are speedbumping them). Chaos glory isn't going to protect you if you are taking a huge ld hit sure, but most of the time you just lose by a couple guys, and it protects you from that.

[minigun762]

Its worth it. CSM are pretty solid in CC. The majority of fights you lose will only be by a few models unless you are facing really tough CC specialists (in which case you've done something wrong letting them fight your basic csms, or you are swarming them, or you are speedbumping them). Chaos glory isn't going to protect you if you are taking a huge ld hit sure, but most of the time you just lose by a couple guys, and it protects you from that.

 

I remember running the numbers back in another thread, but VERY roughly the Icon is worth about +2LD. This means that at LD10, you're damn near fearless. At LD8 you're about the same as LD10. So if you're losing combat by a huge amount, it won't help but turning a -4 check into a -2 check is alot safer.

[Cale]

For CSMs the choice usually goes like this.

 

Icon of Chaos Glory

Khorne

Slaanesh

Tzeentch

Nurgle

 

The reason is that IoCG is cheap and helps make up for not having ATSKNF. Khorne is almost always useful since you'll be in HtH combat at some point. Slaanesh is a meta-choice. Its good with I4/I5 units but useless otherwise, its also fairly cheap. Tzeentch isn't that powerful because of all the 4+ cover saves around. Its not horrible though in HtH combat if all you fight is Banshees or Terminators. Nurgle is far and away the worst choice because Plague Marines are much better point for point.

 

I was going to post this, almost exactly, but Minigun posted it first. Good work, Minigun.

[djkest]

It's been said before but I'll say it again.

 

IoCG: 10 points, totally worth it, and guides deep strikers. This has saved me numerous times.

 

IoK: While pricey, I tend to assault with my 10-man squad of marines quite often. Having 36 attacks and 5 PW attacks is just brutal, against just about anything. This icon is very effective against guard, orcs, and probably nids. With my playstyle I see little reason not to take it. IoK CSMs are 3 points cheaper than berserkers, are more tactically flexible, and shoot better.

 

IoN: No, too expensive. Get plague marines.

 

IoT: Doesn't seem like it would be too useful. Good for fluff I guess

 

IoS: Situationally good. Could make your opponent very frustrated if you are constantly going first against him. Would be good against an army with a lot of I4 or I5 models.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

With Icon's

 

To be honsty if it for a normal Chaos Space Marine unit, I would rather go for a cult unit. Let see......you don't loss the abilty if the Icon get killed, your fearless (beside Glory, none of the other Icon allow re-roll or make you fearless). Also with cult units, not having to worry about 10x models to get two weapon, can be any unit size.

 

This is why if I take a unit of Chaos Marines I stick with Icon of Glory as I would rather have re-roll Ld which help in the like of combat.

 

But this being said, if it with the like of Chaos Biker, Terminators, Chosen. I still go for Icon of glory, but then other Icon do have there use with the like of T6 Nurgle Biker which will be a pain toward the Horde armies, Terminators with the Icon Tzeentch with the nice 4+ Inv save.

 

But as said I would stick with Icon of Glory for re-roll for Ld as I find my chaos marine in the thikness of close combat & last thing I want is them to run away or holding a object & fail a Ld first time, if I wanted the abilty from the chaos gods I'd go with one of there cult units instead. Though shame it not like the old days, par a mark per person in the unit :P

 

IP

[Night Lord Dred]

djkest:

 

You only get 4 attacks with the powerfist. You dont get the bonus CCW bonus with a fist. Just letting you know incase thats what you thought.