rethinking the value of the Flamer

[minigun762]

I was looking at the Loyalist codex (dark heresy I know!) and thinking about how useful the Flamer is for them since it makes up for their lack of 2 base attacks when fighting a horde/assault army.

 

However the next thing I thought of was, "how important is the Flamer for Traitor Marines?".

Not saying its useless, but I wonder if the combination of our Bolters/Bolt Pistols, Chainswords plus Frags cover the need for multiple S4 attacks.

Instead we could give our troops weapons which give them new capabilities (like Plasma or Melta) instead of enhancing their ability to kill basic infantry (which they're already good at).

Then factoring in the whole problem of flaming a squad and not being able to charge afterwars, and I'm starting to question if we need to fit Flamers in, atleast on our CSMs/Plague Marines.

 

So am I talking out of my butt or is what I'm saying making sense?

[chillin]

I see what you're saying, but I still like flamers. 6-8 under a template, auto hit, no cover save. I've even gotten models from a 2nd squad under the template b4. I wouldn't use flamers on PM's (plaz only) but I think they are still good for csm's.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I havn't ever really bothered with flamers. Doom sirens on the other hand... :tu:

[Magnus Thane]

Hmm i rather like Flamers. My Icon of Khorne squads always have 1. The moment before assault, i usually am able to use them and they've probed quite good.

[SquirrelKing]

I remember the first time I used a flamer (bear with me!): It was in 3rd, finally got to start playing regularly and wanted to try something different. I made two squads of 5 Alpha Legion Marines with two flamers. They were cheap and it was an experiment. All it took was for me to shoot them once at a squad of ten marines, be amazed at how many wounds they got, then charged, won the combat and swept the squad. They have been the backbone of my AL ever since.

 

Of course they don't get to be effective all the time, but they are cheap. Plus, psychological factors also weigh in. The more hits you do, the more wounds you can do, etc. I love them.

 

I see where you are coming from, but you need to look at what you want to accomplish with them, like with any other weapon. Sometimes you need more than those X shots + 3 attacks on the charge, something no other gun can give you. A squad of ten marines will shoot ten times max before assaulting, then you need to wound. With flamers, you already take away a huge portion of dice rolling where you could be unlucky. Even on a lucky perfect roll, you will never get as many shots in as with a flamer. Now some mathhammer could prove me wrong, but if you don't get many shots in, then having any other weapon probably wouldn't have helped either...

 

Meh, I'm biased. I really do love flamers :)

[tastytaste]

I always find myself just on the edge of charge range so I tend to avoid flamers because charging is usually so much better. Especially with new Space Marine rules they often get shot then run away from me and then shoot me the next turn. Assaulting is really best way to finish them off so in that case I tend to avoid using flamers.

 

Of course Doom Siren is totally another story.

[minigun762]

Well for me, I'm looking at this in light of whether or not I need the Flamer in my Flamer/Meltagun/Power Fist CSM squads or is the addition of another Meltagun (for twice the ranged anti-tank) worth the lose of anti-infantry firepower (something I already do fairly well).

 

There is always the option of the Combi-Flamer on the Champion or Rhino, but that just seems so expensive. Twice the points for a 1 shot weapon?

[Jeffy.Gee]

the whole problem of flaming a squad and not being able to charge afterwars,

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but flamers are an assault weapon so therefore may shoot then assault?

 

Also a squad of havocs with 4 flamers and a combi-flamer rhino rushing the enemy lines is pretty funny.

 

JG

[chillin]

I always find myself just on the edge of charge range so I tend to avoid flamers because charging is usually so much better.

 

I don't understand, you can shot flamer then charge, it's not one or the other. :jaw:

[Brother Asmodius]

I personally love flamers and have ever since i started using them. Currently I have a set up like you minigun with a Flamer/Melta in every squad because of all of those auto hits i dont have to roll for but for a long time i played my squads (in 5th) without the flamer and they still performed exceedingly well. Their ability to deal with tanks on the other hand is much more risky and i do think that trading the flamer for the second melta would overall make our marines more effective against a lot of armies.

[djkest]

I always find myself just on the edge of charge range so I tend to avoid flamers because charging is usually so much better.

 

I don't understand, you can shot flamer then charge, it's not one or the other. :D

 

No no, you misunderstand. I've been in this situation before. The flamer causes enough wounds that you kill some guys, he removes casualties from the front, and you are out of range to assault now, you fail to assault and then get shot / assaulted the next turn. Somteimes shooting can actually hurt you. In fact, I now only shoot about 33% of the time before I assault. Being stuck in is what I want. Out to dry? Not so much.

 

Back on topic, I was recently thinking about dropping the flamers from my CSMs... I don't even shoot them much. I usually run a meltagun, flamer, and combi-melta. Thinking about just 2x melta guns and call it good.

[Vissah]

I love my flamers all those autohits whats not to love ;)

 

Anyway look at it like this, see how many and how easy you can get cover saves in 5th, this is were the flamer comes into play.

Why use something else when 15 Guardsmen stand in cover and still get a 4+ save against for exapmle plasma or bolters.

Just ride to them in your rhino and burn them out of it :D

[Corpse.]

Flamer stats vs a marine:

100% chance to hit

50% chance to wound

16% chance to fail

 

Plasma shot stats vs a marine: (Double for 12" range)

66% chance to hit (16% chance to fail to hit and cause a wound on himself)

55% chance to wound

55% chance to kill a marine

~Result of 2 shots is 1.1 dead

 

Obviously the flamer is better against weaker targets while the plasma gun is better against light vehicles, monstrous creatures and when the player decides on using bolters rather then melee.

 

If the flamer hits 6, it can kill one marine. (duh, 50% chance to wound), no cover saves allowed. Means to hit 6 - all within 8" range (assault range of 6") you have plenty to harm to make up for plasma gun, which in points costs 3x more then a flamer. Exiting a rhino after it moves is the primary role, and with one on the champion in the form of combi-flamer its a real nice one shot weapon. Since in most cases it only fires once, maybe twice during a game. In statistics the plasma gun has a better use record in terms of range and use-ability, and effective range of targets on an already melee-capable unit with 2-3 attacks per model and having a pistol to fire instead when charging into melee is an option.

 

In some cases though where flamers stack hits, and hitting 7+ per makes the flamer a tactical use weapon that can incinerate a whole squad of even marine quality. So far, the highest is 5 per unit on average, difficult to get larger terminator bases to get more then 5 on one enemy unit and chosen can have 5, while the combi weapon on the havoc champion is totaling 5.

 

Me and a few others have been preaching that flamers have great uses, use the searchy function to look at older discussions on flamers in the forum. I prefer to have a combiflamer on every champ when points allow. In addition to the meltaguns and the powerfist, its my standard loadaout for my CSM/plague marines. Champions have a habbit of always being placed in the middle of the enemy after exiting a rhino, its a fun addition since if in charge range by only one model. Not firing the combi-flamer is a choice to save it for later as well.

 

Flamers are my favorite minor-addition to raptors/bikes/havocs when not in combi form. I normally take the heavy flamer on my terminators, and my all time best slaughter was giving 4 wounds to each terminator in a wolf guard terminator unit of 6 and wiping them out with the havoc unit of 5 flame templates.

[DooshSahaal]

i take 2 flamers per IoK unit... and i'm starting to wonder if khorne is getting annoyed at me for toasting my foes instead of taking their skulls xD

 

my original plan was to take plasma, but the auto-hits are too good to pass up, really. plus i like to burn the enemy, not my own hands :S

 

last game i played was the other night, and my flamer IoK squad took out 20 boyz and 3 deffkoptas, and around 12 - 14 wounds were done by the flamers alone.

 

just my two skulls-- uhh i mean sense.

 

-Doosh

 

EDIT: forgot to say... none of those units leaves homes without a trusty POWER FIST!

[Dràyhèn]

Meh.

Nowadays too many armies are mechanized or have big monsters and alike. Well, seen less horde than mecha.

So why to use flamer? It's practically useless against targets mentioned above. Besides, bolters & big guns mostly cover-up the horde killing issue, why to bother. Then, you can also just keep them out of arm's reach with lash. Against MEQs they won't do that much, 'cos they are usually in small squads and people tend to position them carefully enough, so no templates can cover the whole squad.

 

If I somehow happen to have some extra points in my list, then I may buy one or two for champs, or rhinos.

Heavy flamers in Defilers and termies are only flamers I regulary use. Then there is Doom siren for Noisies.

[Warp Angel]

Meh.

Nowadays too many armies are mechanized or have big monsters and alike. Well, seen less horde than mecha.

So why to use flamer? It's practically useless against targets mentioned above. Besides, bolters & big guns mostly cover-up the horde killing issue, why to bother. Then, you can also just keep them out of arm's reach with lash. Against MEQs they won't do that much, 'cos they are usually in small squads and people tend to position them carefully enough, so no templates can cover the whole squad.

 

If I somehow happen to have some extra points in my list, then I may buy one or two for champs, or rhinos.

Heavy flamers in Defilers and termies are only flamers I regulary use. Then there is Doom siren for Noisies.

 

I'm wondering how useful a bolter shot or two is compared to a flamer when a 30 strong squad of boyz is coming at you. And the 30 strong squad behind that. And the 20 in a battle wagon on your left flank and the 20 in a battle wagon on your left flank... cheap and effective 1000 point or so army.

 

Flamers are usually far more effective than bolter fire in the following situations:

 

1) When attacking a unit after they've arrived via deep strike

2) When attacking a unit after they've deployed from a vehicle

3) When attacking a unit that has just consolidated out of close combat

4) When attacking a unit that is clumped together to take advantage of cover

5) When attacking a unit that has SV 5+ or worse and is in cover

6) When in assault range and planning to assault.

 

Flamers are less useful than most other weapon upgrades against:

 

1) Monstrous Creatures

2) Armor

4) Opponents more than 14" away.

 

They have benefits over most other weapon upgrades:

 

1) Less Expensive

2) Won't kill you if you roll 1s to hit.

3) Have a far greater wound POTENTIAL

 

If you can get your melta/plas/ranged firepower elsewhere, I don't see a reason not to fit a few flamers into your list.

[Zhukov]

I love my flamers, the reasons why they are so good are already given above.

 

I like to add though that the matchup which gives me the most trouble (depending on the list of course) is in general Orks. Flamers really makes it easier against them.

[minigun762]

Wow I'm kinda surprised by the amount of discussion. Alot of good thoughts and ideas.

 

Like I mentioned, I normally run Flamer/Melta/Power Fist squads backed up by dual Plasma squads. It has worked out very well for me, so I can say that the Flamer is a cheap useful addition.

 

However many players have mentioned that if you don't double up on specials, its not reliable enough (e.g 1 Melta can't be trusted to bust a tank), and considering how mech heavy the game is now, I thought about putting more emphasis on Meltaguns and trusting on my stock weapons to handle the infantry.

 

And in regard to the "flame then can't charge" issue, I meant that you run the risk of killing too much and being outside of assault range.

[Hellios]

Drive by flames on the go from a rhino can be good sometimes ;) shame you can't zoom along and do it :@ I think they are also more useful in mechanized units because you can move to a good position jump out and flame a load at once (same with things like bikers and raptors.) Also as mechanized units are more likely to be used for objectives taking they are more likely to get close and have less time shooting at range. While foot slogging units will often be holding objectives and providing fire support.

 

As has been mentioned unless you plan to charge the vehicles(powerfist + rear armour if low) 1 or even 2 meltas is not going to get you success and so you must ask yourself is it worth wasting all your bolter shots. Say you had a 20 man unit I would say no for sure unless you really needed that dead. However in my 13th company list I run three squads of 6 each with 2 meltas and a powerfist so I don't waste to much shooting and can often charge and bust it with a fist.

 

Also if you happen to play against lots of swarms flamer can be good but thats only a few lists within a few armies and most of the time you will have bigger concerns...

[Dràyhèn]

Most of the time though, you'll be needing those meltas to blast the mecha into pieces.

Mecha-horde (orks) can be handled by busting their transports early, then decimating the horde unit by unit through concentrated fire. Foot-sloggers ain't that big problem, as they can't close in that fast.

 

Sure flamers are cheap and useful against hordes and swarms no doubt of that, you can swipe easily a dozen of them with one good shot. The problem is that more often it's meltafire that you need in order to kill the armour & big ones.

 

It's this codex that makes it so. When there is lash, oblits, vindies & defs to choose from, you can pour your points into that armour negating weaponry. It's that effective most of the time.

 

And no, I don't mean that flamers suck and ain't worthwhile to take, just don't see any sense taking them for troops.

I've ones in termies, defis and oblits, sometimes in champs.

[Hydra Bait]

I've had huge success with flamers in Raptors and Bikes, where their smaller numbers require more shooting to be effective, and I can literally ride right up to 1" and unload the templates. Otherwise, I'm moving flat out, running, or I'm already in assault, and I don't have the oppportunity to get a whole lot of mileage from them.

[chillin]

And in regard to the "flame then can't charge" issue, I meant that you run the risk of killing too much and being outside of assault range.

 

Sounds kinda funny to say "this weopon kills to much, I'm starting to doubt it's usefullness" :blink:

I understand what you are really saying, just kinda sounds funny that's all :P

[DuskRaider]

I rarely use flamers. I'd much rather prefer Plasmas or Meltas, but flamers do come in handy against those swarm armies. Shoota/Sluggas, Gants, and IG fall quick to pretty much any template, and the fact you can load up quite a bit on flamers of all sorts is definitely nice. Only problem is, at the same time you're taking away from tank busting options. All a matter of opinion, I suppose.