Starting Out

[Paulochromis]

Hi people,

 

My son Kyle (11.5) has decided to embrace Chaos!

 

Been trolling sites looking for reasonable starter builds, but unsure what direction to recommend.

We read Brother Nihm's and Minigun62's stickies and my son says he likes the assault nature of Khorne armies.

That said, he saved up and bought the CSM Battleforce which is pretty light on cult marines, so I'm inclined to suggest something more versatile. Undivided!

 

I chipped in with the Codex and a Daemon Prince, picked up a Chaos Rhino on e-bay and I'm also prepared to donate my as-yet-unbuilt SM Predator/Rhino & Vindicator. I have box of DA vets on hand as well (for champions).

 

Paint-wise, we are leaning towards the Extinction Angels or Warriors of Mayhem

 

The following is built:

8x Khorne Berserkers: Skull Champ with PF

5x Possessed: stock

1x Rhino: TL Bolter

 

The following is off-sprue, awaiting glue:

5x Chosen: Asp Champ+PW, 4xFlamer (Champ is robed DA Vet)

5x Chosen: Asp Champ+PW+MB, 2xMelta (Champ is robed DA Vet)

 

The following is still on-sprue:

1x Daemon Prince

7x Chaos SM

3x DA vets (robed)

1x SM Vindicator

1x SM Predator/Rhino (will magnetise)

1x Chaos Rhino (includes Chaos vehicle sprue so should be able to accessorise all 3 vehicles to some extent)

 

I've read about the deficiencies of Chosen (more expensive than CSM), but the infiltrate USR seems useful, especially in the absence of termicide.

I've read about the shortcomings of Possessed (random, single CCW), but I think they embody Chaos. If they don't work out then maybe they'll turn into a painting project.

I've also read people's complaints about CSM themselves (based on how strong they were in previous codecii), but compared to vanilla SM I think they look pretty good, IoCG should help with lack of ATSKNF.

 

Ok, questions:

(1) 3 Rhinos, 5 squads, who's on foot until I can scrape together more Rhinos?

(2) Single Vindicator? Could turn it (temporarily) into another Rhino (see (1) above

(3) The spare set of wings from the Possessed sprue look pretty small - where do I get wings for the DP?

(4) How do I configure my second troops choice (the CSMs)? Is there any point adding a (robed) champ to the 7 CSMs, given that I expect them to just sit on the home objective? I've read that CSM squads should get 2 specials, but given the proposed strategy, would they be be better off with a heavy weapon (autocannon/heavy bolter) paired with the longest range special (plasma gun)? Of course this means I need to get them up to 10 men.

(5) I think I need another fist and more meltaguns for the melta Chosen - what's a good source of CSM upgrade sprues? Is there one in the 5-man CSM box? Or do I need to splurge and get the 10-man box? I've seen the Rhino+CSM box, is there an upgrade sprue in there?

(6) I really need shoulder pads, looking at Back-2-Baseix (Aussie bits supplier), but maybe one of the boxsets is a better bet? GW direct order?

(7) Am I better off buying a 7-man Plague Marine box for the objective sitters?

(8) Icons and/or Icon Bearers? Any helpful suggestions appreciated!

 

That's all for now folks, thanks for listeningreading!

Cheers, Paul (and Kyle)

 

Edit: typos

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

Ok, questions:

(1) 3 Rhinos, 5 squads, who's on foot until I can scrape together more Rhinos?

(2) Single Vindicator? Could turn it (temporarily) into another Rhino (see (1) above

(3) The spare set of wings from the Possessed sprue look pretty small - where do I get wings for the DP?

(4) How do I configure my second troops choice (the CSMs)? Is there any point adding a (robed) champ to the 7 CSMs, given that I expect them to just sit on the home objective? I've read that CSM squads should get 2 specials, but given the proposed strategy, would they be be better off with a heavy weapon (autocannon/heavy bolter) paired with the longest range special (plasma gun)? Of course this means I need to get them up to 10 men.

(5) I think I need another fist and more meltaguns for the melta Chosen - what's a good source of CSM upgrade sprues? Is there one in the 5-man CSM box? Or do I need to splurge and get the 10-man box? I've seen the Rhino+CSM box, is there an upgrade sprue in there?

(6) I really need shoulder pads, looking at Back-2-Baseix (Aussie bits supplier), but maybe one of the boxsets is a better bet? GW direct order?

(7) Am I better off buying a 7-man Plague Marine box for the objective sitters?

(8) Icons and/or Icon Bearers? Any helpful suggestions appreciated!

 

That's all for now folks, thanks for listeningreading!

Cheers, Paul (and Kyle)

 

Edit: typos

 

Good morning, and welcome to your lad... The dark gods smile on them younger and younger...

 

I'll do my best to answer your questions as i'm a novice to the new rules but do now understand what's going on a little more.

 

1) make your squads bigger... 2 x 5 Chosen may be good from one angle but if you put then in a rhino as a squad of 10, they get a 2nd special weapon that they can fire from the hatch of the rhino.

 

2) You could make the Vindicator into a rhino on a temporary basis, i've heard worse ideas. I'm not sure how you'd stick parts on to keep it a rhino but be able to change it eventually but if you have the skills, a) use them for this and :D tell me!

 

3) look on the fantasy section of the GW website, i think on one of the bits sections, you have a section there called "wings". I've got the dark pegasus ones for Ewan (my Night Lords DP, named by my girlfriend... I'm sorry to him, the dark gods and all of you) and they fit great with some green stuff.

 

4) I'd stick to specials for your CSMs, i've found Havocs or Oblits to be better options for the heavies. Oblits have done nicely for me so far in keeping my own deployment zone safe with their bigger numbers of heavy weapons, Oblits from what i've seen (not used yet) are nice tank hunters. CSMs for your troops choices are probably better off being mobile and shooty. If he gets a rhino for your Havocs (long term), and you need to use the Havocs, you can move them to support any objectives.

 

5) Upgrade sprues again are (i think) on GW website and the more CSM boxes you get, the more spares seem to turn up. I'm in the middle of "credit crunch squad building" by using up spares from my bits box. I'm up to 17 CSMs so far and that from just 30 other CSMs and about 25 Cult marines of various gods... It gets easier the more you put together I think.

 

6) I'm really not on commission but GW do great looking sets of shoulder pads. Also, if you get the large box of (i think) 12 CSMs, you get a load of spares. Double the fun.

 

7) My 5 old school PMs have done well at this (they do not make them as they once did...) so yeah, the box of 7 would probably be good.

 

8) again, the big CSM squad box has 5 different banners and for the banner poles for each, I use spears from fantasy Chaos Warrior and Skeletons box sets my dad got me thinking that "they look like the gory stuff you paint". They prove to be very useful spares however. As for which banners to use, I think enough has been said on here about that. I use more fluff based combos than is probably effective.

 

Hope this helps. And I hope dad doesn't take over the project :)

[Hellios]

I could find one of those you mentioned but as soon as you mentioned the other I thought pink or purple now they don't scream Khorne to me but thats that and you want to enjoy painting them and in reality it will make them stand out more :D. I would go with undivided to start with unless khorne really grabs you as you can always use icons to change which god (or all) or nor you may be worshipping :P This will also give you more chance to go about town with other cult units.

 

Well as for 3 rhinos and 5 squads.. berzerkers should be in a rhino ;), i'd stick possessed on foot who knows what they do... now if that leaves you with 3 marine squads 2 in rhinos to objective grab now special weapons should depend on what you think is likely to be left. If your fire support should kill/destroy/injure most of the vehicles and big creatures before you get there then flamers(burn the masses) or plasmas (heavy infantry and light transports) might be better, while if you expect the big boys especially tanks then go with meltas.

 

I think vindicators are great and can win you a game against weaker players without firing a shot and used as denial of area weapons and channeling your enemy into a smaller area. In addition if you make it possessed (-1BS) it will keep on rolling and shooting unless its gun goes, tracks break or worse.

 

I would go with dragon or balrog wings whichever are bigger... I have a friend who for a joke put a pair of wings from the Night Lord Helmets on the back of his DP... technically its WYSIWYG although some people haven't noticed it has wings until to late... XD

 

Again on configeration I touched that before it depends what you want the unit to do. Standard marines are best from 12-0 (in combat) although against some enemies you will want to be further back. So its pretty standard to gear them up for close range fire with special weapons. Its worth remembering that flamers and meltas are assault so you can shoot and charge while plasmas are rapid fire and might be put to best use in units that will act as fire support or second wave attack. Heavy weapons are IMo best kept if at all in the realms of those who will be camping objectives but as you mentioned plague marines they are good for holding objectives (especially in cover) and with plasma guns (which are pretty safe with 3+ sv and feel no pain) can act as fire support. If your playing a defensive game you can use these as an anvil to lure in a charge and then use a unit of berzerkers as a hammer to counter charge :D.

 

As for Icons I love them I even put them in cult units who don't need them just to look cool. However what you could do is give one guy a banner pole and then pin or magnatise (Hell blue/white tack could even do the trick XD) the banner so you can swop them around as needed (and as mentioned fantasy banner poles from the more evil races do well if you need extra poles)

 

Mark of Khorne is for mobile agressive units IMO although it can be a nasty surprise when they charge a havok squad to find the number of attacks they face (although thats not where I would spend my points). Mark of slaanesh is the same kind of deal but makes you go faster not much point if you play a lot of low I or High I armies such as Necrons, Tau and even IG or Orks to some extent while its also less useful against high I armies such as Eldar and Dark Eldar but at least you might strike at the same time so get to kill them before you die :D.

 

Mark of Tzeentch and Nurgle are much more all rounders although for units that camp in your deployment I would be going with one of these two, nurgle being my favourite as it just plain and simple makes you harder to kill no matter where you are. Tzeentch will give you some protection against power weapons and big guns but unless you know your coming up against lots of AP3- and power weapons its to expensive IMO, the one exception being if you plan to charge the unit into combat specialists such as terminators or nobs in the first place although I wouldn't be making a squad with that in mind...

 

As for shoulder pads are you looking for any special ones with certain markings?

 

 

Also I would like to mention noise marines (they can take lots of sonic weapons but get pretty expensive) mounted in a rhino with a sergeant with a doom siren and power weapon can also be a good assault unit. Against normal marines they will go first (Khorne berzerkers will on a charge so many will say just go with berzerkers) and a powerfist is a waste of the high I so you need to be more careful that they don't get engaged with characters/tough monsters (while having a fist on a berzerker champion isn't such an issue). However the doomsiren is great for moving people off cover who might be on an objective and so on so with a good hit from that on say a squad of tactical marines there is a good chance you will wipe them out in assault :D.

[Corpse.]

-Chosen should be basic CSM's or part of the unit below.

-10 Havocs with 4 Flamers, Combi-Flamer Champion with powerfist, Icon of Khorne in the unit.

-Vindicator with Possession works well if not a rhino, same idea for the predator below on re-converting.

-I suggest making a predator for starting out, he can downgrade to a rhino if he really feels he wants something else to replace it later, its not that hard stripping paint if you get it back and get him something else.

-Possessed are nice for not much but rather with a rhino they will do alright.

(Added, it says equipment is added on page 29, only equipment noted in the random roll is power weapon, and that is thus added and so giving the possessed two close combat weapons for another +1 attack, add Icon of Khorne and they have 5 attacks each on the charge if he rolls a 6)

-Build up the marines, all of them. Having 50 marines with 5 champs and 2 special weapons per 10 guys with 5 rhinos is a super-solid core for the majority of all fighting that is chaos. Add more weapons later for making chosen, havocs and so forth. They do not require markings like loyalists to show they are havocs and so on, thats mostly a unbroken legion/loyalist thing. (Check the art of most chaos marines in the codex, you will notice they lack squad markings)

-Champs do well with combi-flamers if you do so require more anti infantry, though its a bit more advanced and perhaps best a small conversion left for later.

-Look at the recent icon thread on what people prefer, though if he's assault oriented being khornate icon on chosen/havocs is a good idea. If he wants to run more basic marines with icon of khorne and he starts running 2000+ points then he can try fabius bile's enhanced marines. They are quite near equal to berzerkers but may still keep their meltaguns/flamers. (Run 20-30 or more of them to justify taking fabius otherwise its not quite there)

 

 

Most people will say obliterators+princes+plague marines are the superior choice though its agreed that spamming more marines instead of plague marines is also alright since you get 3 chaos space marines for every 2 plague marines points-wise. Berzerkers are top notch for melee troops though, and also a high end unit.

 

Defilers are nice if you are aggressive in a flexible way. Dreadnoughts are not advised unless you have a role for such things and your HQ/Supports are filled up or you dont have the points for a defiler.

 

 

You are on the right path I think, its in the point of feeling out a playstyle. Run with what you got for now and add more special weapons to play with in the units, icons being glory/khorne as usual. Icon heads being removable are also a nice way to mess around.

 

Not much time left, I'll be back later.

[Paulochromis]

Really great responses guys, thanks.

Lots to mull over.

 

Cheers, Paul & Kyle.

[Corpse.]

Back, I was going to add that the tutorials are good and I have strategy guides/etc in my sig (as well as a few other guys do on this forum) you may want to look around and especially peer into the water style in the "elements" link in my sig done by a grey knight player.

 

Nice quotes in your sig I might add.

 

I advise looking at the general tactics in the section on rhinos for assault oriented marines, most of the basics are there, including a few other fun things if you will read the whole thing. I was going to copy+paste but I rather not spam the post.

 

Using obliterators I notice brings people into a more refined playstyle where they feel limited by the obliterators movements in some way, its just a thing I see often people feel they need protection or think too much on them beint 225 pts for 3 lascannons, rather then using their whole tactical ability, if you do get him obliterators tell him to make them fit his playstyle. Not to be afraid to send them in deep strike off an icon and slap three twin-linked meltas into the side of a tank and such, they do have powerfists after all.