Chaos Raptors & Spawn

[Azulz]

So I have 5 raptors & 2 spawn that I havent painted because I never find any reason to bring them out. What do you all use them for?

Somebody told me that raptors were awesome in planetstrike but I havent brought them out yet. As for the spawns I dont know except for maybe gift of chaos psyker spell.

[Brother Nihm]

Moving your post out of the Army List Forum. :lol:

[JamesI]

I like raptors to act as a bodyguard for my Tzeentch Sorceror on Disk of Tzeentch. Spawn, well, they're nice when you use the Gift of Chaos power.

[chillin]

5 raptors are really only good to melt tanks or drop down and double flame a squad (that is about to get double tapped or assaulted by another of your squads). Raptors can act as a "retinue" for a flying lord, but not with only 5, you need 8-10 for that.

Spawn, yea, to have for GoC is really the only use for them.

[DuskRaider]

Raptors are great for tank hunting if armed with Meltas, but they will become a priority target for most opponents, which can be a double edged sword. On the upside, it can give your other units time to move up and engage other targets or an objective, but on the downside you just lost a lot of points in those Raptors. Let's put it this way, 8 Raptors w/ Icon of Khorne, 2 Meltas, and a Champion w/ Twin-Lightning claws is 255 points. That's as much as a fully kitted out Plague Marine unit, and they don't count as scoring.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Err what sort of plague marine unit are you running that is that cheap?

[Crusader169]

7 PM, 2 special weaps, fist and rhino

[Corpse.]

Raptors have uses but for the 5 or so unit it falls to whats already been mentioned. If you like them, and want to consider lager squad options, then think of icons as a type of "unit change".

 

Raptors can assault on turn 2. +1 attack each with icon of khorne is an easy way. If you like slaanesh icons for the initiative, thats nice too for outrunning things and hitting other marines first or going at the same time with many eldar units. With nurgle, its sort of like having cheaper bikes to some extent if you run 11+ of them, at 20 models its 22.5 points per toughness 5 "bike" so to say. Reduce the turbo boost and be replaced with deep strike possible. Evens out in most respects. Tzeentch icon for when you like tackling rough targets like terminators. Glory is the most common use icon and perhaps best in the smaller unit size.

 

Raptors arent limited by having a transport so fielding 11+ of them with an icon is ideal when you want more models benefitting from a single icon purchase. Especially when its melee that is their most common field of work, not having to worry about the few centimeters to make every model just within range to shoot something like a noise marine squad.

 

Raptors are great for suicide missions because they dont score, and its obvious they would be a split target if the enemy thinks he can knock all your scoring units down while being foolish enough to ignore your raptors.

 

Powerfists are best if you run a champ, as always. 2 Melta or 2 Flamer as mentioned above, though if you run a larger unit I suggest meltas just for the uses they play out in larger games.

 

Edit:

Forgot to add in a note on spawns. They are worthwhile, its just that they fill such a small "niche" spot of usefulness that is a bit thin and not worth spending 120 points for 3 every single game to eventually get to that one spot where they are worthy. Gift of Chaos is the best excuse to use them aside from taking one to fill 40 points if you cant fill it another way. Its fun to have one spawn every once in a while chase after a rhino and immobilize it as early as turn 1 if you go second and he moved it forward. (Luck be with you with spawns though, think of spawns as a type of orky-ork thats orkier)

[Night Lord Dred]

Raptors are great.

 

Icons other than Chaos Glory just arnt worth it. Taking icon of chaos glory over IoK gets you rerolls on morale checks and 2 meltas. Taking large squads is silly too, and negating one of their advantages - being able to take 2 meltas or flamers at any unit size. Just split them in two and have 4 meltas. They cant be ignored that way, and they have to shoot two different squads.

 

They dont fit in every army, particularly nurgle, which is why im not surprised a poster already mentioned a plague marine alternative. However, if youre running a fast army, theyre great.

[DuskRaider]

Anything more then 7 PMs in a unit and you're wasting points. I usually go 7 PMs w/ Champ, Powerfist & Plasma Pistol, Icon, and Plasma X2. Comes out to I believe 252 points, give or take. And you're going to get a lot more use out of the PMs. On a similar note, I don't see much of a point to Raptors who use anything other then Icon of Khorne or Slaanesh either, if you're going to be a unit that moves that fast, you want something that's going to help you in CC. They ARE Assault Marines after all (just Traitor Assault Marines).

[Azulz]

Thanks these are all great ideas. Really opened my eyes to the possibilities that raptors bring to the table. They are a little too much money for me to get any more right now so i think ill go with the suicide option when playing Tau.Other than that I think Ill just let my spawn sit on the shelf a little while longer.

[Corpse.]

Raptors are great.

 

Icons other than Chaos Glory just arnt worth it. Taking icon of chaos glory over IoK gets you rerolls on morale checks and 2 meltas. Taking large squads is silly too, and negating one of their advantages - being able to take 2 meltas or flamers at any unit size. Just split them in two and have 4 meltas. They cant be ignored that way, and they have to shoot two different squads.

 

They dont fit in every army, particularly nurgle, which is why im not surprised a poster already mentioned a plague marine alternative. However, if youre running a fast army, theyre great.

 

Interesting to point out your views, perhaps not so objective to what other people prefer - to prevent a side topic from spurring off the main topic. Rewording to prevent this would be more like:

"I think icons other than Chaos Glory just arnt worth it." and "is silly too" becoming "one disadvantage is not getting" -> following your point of splitting the unit to fill up Fast Attack choices for extra guns+champs.

 

You seem a little new, so I won't pursue it, work on subtly - this forum can be unforgiving otherwise. (Seasoned posters can make you pretty mad and get away with it, while if your not too careful you get a warning by a mod).

 

 

 

To add the reasoning why I said icons are somewhat of a "squad change" is trying to get more bang for the points spent when loyalists get cheaper assault marines. We dont pay +2 points just for +1 leadership and the ability to have 2 meltaguns in the unit. 10 guys translate into 25 point toughness 5, 2ccw melee "bikes" becomes 22.5 points at 20 models. Thats my point, since raptors do not need to be restricted to 10 guys due to fitting inside a transport, a strong point not many people point out in a "Are raptors good" topic. Everyone usually gets the other points so I note just that one really. :)

 

(edit)

+Also a killpoint advantage, and not a big difference if you make sure your HQ's follow/hang out with the large unit where the lack of a champ doesnt bother you and shooting a tank means you dont get stuck in melee and thus get shot up the following turn.

[Night Lord Dred]

As for why you shouldnt take anything other than IoCG, read this topic http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=175763, people do a good job of explaining why. Increasing 40 attacks to 50 in the long run doesnt really matter. You can still easily lose combat, plus youre spending 20 more points which could be another 4 attacks anyways (with bolt pistol) in addition to another wound.

 

With the above said, having one large group is indeed silly when youre restricting your weapon loadouts. You can get 2 more meltas and take down two different tanks in one turn. Theres a reason aside from rhino capacity why you never see CSM squads that are 11+ - they dont benefit from the extra men.

 

You also cant play to a disadvantage because youre worried about kill points. Kill points dont really matter when all your opponent has left is a pile of bodies and smoking tanks.

[IronWinds]

Raptors, well I dont use them, so I'll avoid advice on that. I do prefer MoCG over every mark all the time. In many years it has very rarely ever failed me. Actually... I can say I've never experienced having a unit falling back. Have lost a combat and been overrun, but that is another story. I have however seen Abby and a squad of terminators w/ the MoT run because they faced an enemy that had the option of auto winning combat. In reality Abby had ripped that squad a new one, and that unit should of been tested with a big negative modifier. Instead Abby's squad w/ no modifier rolled an 11. Termies were below half str. Took us forever to figure out how Fearless Abby would react to the termy unit falling back forever. I think we eventually decided to agree to stop arguing and just play the game.

 

On the note of spawn. Great for GoC, besides that I don't know. I won't take them. My reasoning, read the EoT codex. Almost the same statline, 1 less wound which was made up for many times over again by the 3+ sv, and.... half the price. Oh and no Slow rule, instead had to pass a Ld check to move, which wasn't to bad at Ld9. At 20pts a model I'll consider them, at 40 forget it.

[Corpse.]

Thanks for linking that topic, should explain instead of me having to repeat myself here. I prefer bulk when making use of icons that add statistics, since having more means massive wound-units allow me to spread wounds to just the basic models and not my four special ones (champ+guns+icon bearer). If you lose two guys and suffer 4 wounds, it leaves me wondering why I added an icon to begin with if I lose a special weapon. My opponents are quite apt at getting enough ap3(or better) wounds on high cost units.

 

I got my rear handed to me by a full ap3+ army recently, it wasnt nice, suggesting that using rhinos to cover 50% of a large squad of raptors on the way in. Also having some in front so your not left behind and still get 2nd turn assault off is still quite effective.

 

Large squads are superior if you find their use and properly play it. Otherwise if you depend on standalone units, dont bother with them. I still stand firm that extra guns bought means less models fighting in melee/less models taking hits. Plus the fact that in certain situations charging one unit might stop a second unit of you'res from being able to assault because the models got in their way. (Learned from ork tactics, larger squads beat out maxxing out on 10-mobs just for extra nobz with klaws)

[Hellios]

Spawn can be good in Apocalypse or large games with lots of people just as a screen, although I have 10 spawn (I've only managed to make 6 in a single game yet!) for spawning people in larger games I have stuck them at the front especially in front of soft close combat squads like a 30 man ork mob just to act as either a fire magnet or provide cover for those behind and if they make it tie units in CC.

[Night Lord Dred]

Thanks for linking that topic, should explain instead of me having to repeat myself here. I prefer bulk when making use of icons that add statistics, since having more means massive wound-units allow me to spread wounds to just the basic models and not my four special ones (champ+guns+icon bearer). If you lose two guys and suffer 4 wounds, it leaves me wondering why I added an icon to begin with if I lose a special weapon. My opponents are quite apt at getting enough ap3(or better) wounds on high cost units.

 

I got my rear handed to me by a full ap3+ army recently, it wasnt nice, suggesting that using rhinos to cover 50% of a large squad of raptors on the way in. Also having some in front so your not left behind and still get 2nd turn assault off is still quite effective.

 

Large squads are superior if you find their use and properly play it. Otherwise if you depend on standalone units, dont bother with them. I still stand firm that extra guns bought means less models fighting in melee/less models taking hits. Plus the fact that in certain situations charging one unit might stop a second unit of you'res from being able to assault because the models got in their way. (Learned from ork tactics, larger squads beat out maxxing out on 10-mobs just for extra nobz with klaws)

 

You cant bring the perfect counter into the argument, especially when that perfect counter is extremely rare and overpriced. Your situation is perfect - no cover, ap3 rapidfiring into you (squads of 8 1ksons + 1 sorc = 16 shots, 8 hit, 4 wound/kill then whatever the sorc has). Im very curious as to how jump troops that move 12 + D6" get rapid fired, let alone by AP3 weapons.

 

Even if (someone were somehow dumb enough to get in this situation and) this was the case, now your opponent has to split shooting between two squads and is going to overkill something. Then your other squad of raptors jump into and assaults the 1ksons, and makes 300 points back anyways - and thats in your perfect situation.

 

So again, Im not seeing it.

[Corpse.]

Your really trying to pick a fight arent you pal? Can you possibly word things better then "Hey you, your stupid because I say so" style approach? Chill out before responding or take it to PM with me, I'll gladly take this off scale with you if you want to.

 

Perfect argument, well lets see. Click on my footslogging link (which is much older then this topic) to show I've been messing with 20-squads for quite some time now. Ever since our current codex arrived in fact. You cant disprove I havent been using this merely because you dont like it.

 

Chill out and take it to PM, we're the only ones keeping this topic alive and I doubt people want to read this, unless your trying to involve others in this with input other then youres. You sound pretty confident of your side and we're already beyond trying to convince the OP of what's what after we already stated ourselves.

[Night Lord Dred]

Im not looking for a fight at all, youre the one telling me off my first post that I should censor myself. You need to take a chillpill, because quite honestly, it doesnt bother me what you say.

 

People may or may not be using this to help them with their game. Your strategies and justification for them are, in my opinion, weak. However Im open to ideas to improve my own game and change my mind on yours, but I wont get them when you bring up such unlikely situations.

 

Throw aside any personal attacks you think i may be tossing your way, and just stick to the topic.

[the jeske]

corpse most of the stuff you say and claim to be tactics doesnt work in normal [1500-2k pts games] with normal build list.

 

it was said before , but :sigh: bulking up unit with icons does not help . because as soon as you unable to destroy transports [and smaller number of bigger squads means less special weapons , fewer units you can target etc] the whole army is grinding to a halt . thats on top of being blasted to bits with every template weapon aviable . unlike with the 10 man squads [or smaller] whereone can argue that with cover and 2" between models [and no lash] the 16+man units cant do that. not on normal tables and not if they want to get close to enemy units and not move through cover the whole battle [not to mention the sucktastic moment when the first squads moves 2-3" and all the ones behind it are forced to slow down too].

 

 

 

If you lose two guys and suffer 4 wounds, it leaves me wondering why I added an icon to begin with if I lose a special weapon.

thats why chaos players use transports . makes then loses for turn 1-2 close to 0 and then we use rhinos to block LoS and charges so that single squads wont be shot at by 2-3 [or charged] . besides if someone actually wants to kill a 16 man unit people will do that specially when it cripples an army. a chaos army of 1750 runs 4 troops , unless you cut on HQs and support units you will have 3 . and as I said before this means huge problems , if you decid to do that. as you lack meta choices to counter tough match ups and combination of certain units.

 

as the unit options goes. spawn are unplayable. they are worth one kill point each [thats including the ones you make with spells] are random , but not in a good way . they really have to roll above the avarge to be a medicore assault/tar pit unit . as chaos has better units for those rules [ csm/zerkers/pms are better at hth , scoring and harder to kill and DPs are better tar pit units].

 

raptors can be used as poor man versions of termicid or hiden flamer/melta units behind rhinos, but again there are better choices for the same slots [that cost fewer points ] . they are the only option for a winged/disc lord or sorc , but as both of those are no offten played and even when used those HQs are mostlly used in LR rush builds , the number of 8 man raptor hth squads is rather small , specially as in the end they arent better then csm , but cost just as much as zerkers or pms .

[Corpse.]

Not everyone picks the top end things for sake of having options or using what they already own. Stating uses doesnt mean I try to contest that its the best, so I try to consult as to why people downplay what I say because its not top tier? Misunderstanding perhaps being that people perhaps think I'm trying to say my way is better, when I am just trying to state options that may be fun to try.

 

Not being top tier does not mean its bottom tier nor replaces the fact that they're marines and in bulk often sets a good standard average. But we'll just leave that up to the reader, I really dont have anything else to add to this topic other then responding to circle-debates that are not constructive(we both agree on that at least).

 

Soreja.

[incinerator950]

All I recognize out of this topic is Raptors need to be in bulk, Icons suck, and there's the 50th Argument for the month again.