Hellbreaker Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 'Ello people For long now have I considered starting a CSM army with a general Tzeentch/Slanneshi theme. Mostly since both of these gives me a crazy opportunity to convert and isn't near as ugly as Nurgle... So the only thing I've thought out is my regular Troops, 3 Thousand sons units and 2 noise marine units. I would like some advice on what to get for this future army so that I can write it up and save it for when I'm actually able to do it... (Money, school and other armies comes in the way) Just a note though, I'm not a fan of buying expensive, single metal figures unless it's HQ... So you could also give any advice on how to do these units yourself(Obliterators from termies I already know). Thanks in advance and cheers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176253-a-cult-of-slanntch/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellbreaker Posted August 21, 2009 Author Share Posted August 21, 2009 I thought I'd make a list... Just so I could get some more help with this... HQ Daemon prince - Wings, MoT, Warptime 175 pt Chaos sorcerer - MoS, LoS, Hover board(Jump pack thingy) 145pt Elite 4 Terminators - 4 champions, 4 combi-melta ----- 195pt 3 Terminators - 3 combi-melta --- 105pt Troop 6 Noise marines - 5 Sonic blasters ----- Noise champion - Doom siren ---------- 195pt Rhino ------ 35pt -------------- 230pt 6 Noise marines - 5 Sonic blasters ----- Noise champion - Doom siren ---------- 195pt Rhino ------ 35pt -------------- 230pt 6 Noise marines - 5 Sonic blasters ----- Noise champion - Doom siren ---------- 195pt Rhino ------ 35pt -------------- 230pt 8 Thousand sons ----- 1 Sorcerer - Doombolt ---------- 194pt Rhino ----- 35 ------------ 229 pt Heavy support 2 Obliterators 150pt Defiler - 2 CC weapons 150pts 2 Obliterators 150pt Total: 1989pt Models: 45 Pts left: 11pt Cheers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176253-a-cult-of-slanntch/#findComment-2086150 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 For long now have I considered starting a CSM army with a general Tzeentch/Slanneshi theme.Mostly since both of these gives me a crazy opportunity to convert and isn't near as ugly as Nurgle... So the only thing I've thought out is my regular Troops, 3 Thousand sons units and 2 noise marine units. I would like some advice on what to get for this future army so that I can write it up and save it for when I'm actually able to do it... (Money, school and other armies comes in the way) Just a note though, I'm not a fan of buying expensive, single metal figures unless it's HQ... So you could also give any advice on how to do these units yourself(Obliterators from termies I already know). Noise Marines and Thousand Sons can be difficult to play as they're both fairly expensive units that are focused on anti-infantry firepower. My gut instinct is to have you focus your squads into 1 of 2 areas. 1) infantry shooting. This means squads of 7-9 Marines decked out with Sonic Blasters (NM) or Doombolt (TS). These squads provide dakka for killing infantry. They can also be used to camp your objectives. Rhinos are good but I wouldn't say they're mandatory. 2) counter assault. This means squads of 8-10 Marines decked out with Doom Sirens/Power Weapons (NM) or Wind of Chaos or Warptime (TS). These squads function as roadblocks and tarpits, counter assaulting units and assaulting scoring units on objectives. Rhinos would be mandatory here. Now in both cases, you're still lacking any kind of significant anti tank/anti MC firepower. This means you need to bulk up on Obliterators, Terminators, Daemon Princes or vehicles as backup. I'd say most any combination would be viable, but the best choices are dual DPs, Termicide squads and Obliterators. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176253-a-cult-of-slanntch/#findComment-2086232 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 I'd say that Bolt of Change is a bad power on TSon Aspiring Sorceror as the rest of his unit is built to shoot infantry. Doombolt works the best Ithink. As for the sorceror, you can't cast Doombolt and Bolt of Change the same turn. I recommend making one Warptime (and making the other Wind of Chaos) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176253-a-cult-of-slanntch/#findComment-2086240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citizen Snips Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 LIST That Sorcerer is way too expensive for nothing. If you want to run a Tzeentch one, run with Warptime and be an IC killer. You can warptime and instant kill IC's with the mark of Tzeentch. The only power worth taking on an HQ for us is wind, warptime, or lash. The rest are mediocre. Also, don't use terminator armor for an HQ that is with terminators I assume. With power armor, you gain one more attack and you will most likely be fighting power weapon enemy's, so the terminator armor provides nothing but wasted points. If you have terminators coming out of a land raider, they should be clawed up. You don't get a bonus attack with twin linked bolter/power weapon and claws are only ten points more with one more attack and re-rolling wounds. Marking them can be very useful depending on what army you are facing as well. Big mistake with your Noise marines is that you took everything. First you have to decide what you want them to be, melee or shooting. No point in taking one of the better heavy weapons in our codex with an assaulting unit. Problem with NM is that they are good in melee because of our extra attack and base initiative 5 means we are usually going first. But with all that firepower you have, you are better just sitting back and unloading all those shots. Not to mention 225 points for 6 models is way too over priced. Sons look good, but never take an anti tank weapon for an anti infantry unit. Doombolt is usually the best because it cheap and is almost a heavy bolter with hellfire rounds. You can run with warptime to ward off any IC assaults or wind for extra close shooting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176253-a-cult-of-slanntch/#findComment-2086253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellbreaker Posted August 21, 2009 Author Share Posted August 21, 2009 Lots of nice advice. ^^ I did another list so I'll post it in short, changed stuff to have a bit more AT/A-MC fire too. Good note on the TS units, I'll change it to Doombolt right away. ^^ LIST HQ Daemon prince - Wings, MoS, LoS 155 pt Chaos sorcerer - MoT, Warptime, Bolt of change 180pt Elite 4 Terminators - 4 champions, IoT, 4 combi-melta -----230pt Land raider - Dozer blade, Daemonic possession ------ 245pt ---------------- 440pt Troop 6 Noise marines - 4 Sonic blasters, Blast master ----- Noise champion - Doom siren ---------- 210pt Rhino ------ 35pt -------------- 245pt 6 Noise marines - 4 Sonic blasters, Blast master ----- Noise champion - Doom siren ---------- 210pt Rhino ------ 35pt -------------- 245pt 8 Thousand sons ----- 1 Sorcerer - Doombolt ---------- 194pt Rhino ----- 35 ------------ 229 pt 8 Thousand sons ----- 1 Sorcerer - Doombolt ---------- 194pt Rhino ----- 35 ------------ 229 pt Heavy support 2 Obliterators 150pt Predator - Lascannon turret 105pt Total: 1978 Models: 43 Pts left: 22 Some more AT/AMC now. :) Maybe this should be moved... I dunno... ~Conflicting rules~ Cheers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176253-a-cult-of-slanntch/#findComment-2086378 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zealot Of Chaos Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 I would refer to Minigun's advise as he does give such good advise (waiting for him to sig this comment), but as I stand I would either go full Tzeentch or Slannesh, in 4th ed rules I used to run a NM list which was 2x 10 Nmarines all sonic weps apart from blastmaster and champ who was doom siren & power wep (+ bolt pistol), this did the job nicely, but you are trying to specialise in 2 fields, anti MEQ (Tsons) and anti gen infantry (NMs) from my own experience NM's are good against anything because statswise cause enough wounds and anything will go down, I wouldn't take the blast master in such a small unit as you have there, its a lot of points which is only good if you can protect it with wounds and average points cost (for the squad) I understand you are following fluff, but following fluff and having an effective force are more often than not 2 different things, if this list was to just have fun with and not worry about winning too much why do you have LoS in there (I know it is mandatory in most chaos lists but you won't make many friends using it) or if it is for beating people's armies into a mess I would not spread so many points over such a small amount of troops, I currently run 40 CSM in 1500 points with Oblits and DP and it scares the bejessus out of people and has not lost yet, (and its not even a lash prince just a nurgle warptime prince (waiting for the Jeske to criticise me now)) and I reckon my 1500 point list could take on your 1978 point list as it stands, Tsons are great for MEQ, NM are great for general infantry, but the 2 don't mix too well and have completely different playstyles, so as I said earlier I personally would go with either 1 or the other and have done with both over different editions Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176253-a-cult-of-slanntch/#findComment-2086647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellbreaker Posted August 22, 2009 Author Share Posted August 22, 2009 I don't really know how 'fluffy' a Slanntch army is, but I find it cool and most of all fun. (Economical is one thing, but it really doesn't matter much in my army choosing... And my greater daemon if I get one would be a keeper of change... Haha, get it?) But I am keeping the unit sizes as fluffy as possible, yes... Why would I otherwise have 6 NM's and 9 TS's? I'm having the lash prince since I am a kind of powergamer, but I don't aim at winning but rather having a close game. Powerbuilder, no? I'll keep the blastmaster thing in mind and will edit it in to the first list instead of copy&pasting it... Again... What if I dropped a TS unit and took another NM unit? Dropping blastmaster but anyway... In that way I got 3 anti-infantry units and 1 anti-MeQ unit. I think my AT/A-MC got sorted by giving the terminators combi-meltas and bringing in a predator... But anything else I could do on that part? Keep an eye on the first list... Cheers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176253-a-cult-of-slanntch/#findComment-2086943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 I was considering doing a slaanesh/tzeentch list awhile back but eventually went with pure slaanesh. I did a lot of research at the time, so let me share a few of the things i picked up. First, as has probably been made clear, slanntch lists arn't going to be top tourny competitive. If you arn't okay with that, then stop before you spend any money. You can make a solid list with it that will be fine for regular games but will suffer against really heavy lists. Troops: You have 4, potentially 5 troop choices to choose from. Thousand Sons, Noise Marines, Icon marines of each god, and if you feel like using them even Chaos Glory icon marines. Here's a quick run down of each: Noise marines can play several rolls. Water warrior style 8-10 man squads with all sonic blasters and nothing else are good for putting out a ton of shots. A couple of these squads will put a real dent in hordes but are vulnerable to anti meq units, especially CC ones (despite their initiative). The doom siren champ assault style squad is great for destroying MEQs. Doom sirens are pretty much insane, and even if you never get to fire the thing it is something that no MEQ enemy can ignore. It also does well against a horde. Doom siren squads should always be rhino mounted, but arn't worth a landraider. Blastmasters should only ever be used in 5 man objective camping squads due to their price. They provide decent support fire while being scoring. Nothing amazing but they can be handy as well. Never take more than 1 as they just arn't that great and are fairly easy kill points. No matter the configuration, noise marines suffer from not being able to deal with armor at all. Unlike vanilla marine squads and plague marines which can run meltas. Thousand Sons can be very clunky to actually play with. They have a niche, but its a small one. At a glance, they seem nice. They are amazing when rapidfiring meqs who arn't in cover. There are problems with them though. First, note that they lack a second CC weapon and are slow and pureposeful. Since all your moving counts as moving through cover and they don't have grenades they strike at initiative 1 if you are charging somebody. Second, AP 3 just isn't that great in 5th ed with all this cover around. To show some numbers, a squad of 7 1k sons and 1 sorc firing bolters and doombolt outside of double tap range will average 3.33 kills against meqs (10 shots, 6.66 hit, 3.33 wounds, 1.66 if in cover). For the same price, you can get 9 sonic blaster marines. If they moved, they average 2 kills against meqs regardless of cover (18 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 2 unsaved). If they stood still its 3 kills. This is while moving faster and being better in CC. So, thousand sons are only worth using over noise marines if you are rapid firing stuff. Of course, if you are rapid firing stuff you are going to get charged next turn, and they are pretty inefficient in CC (same amount of attacks as tac marines, but cost 7 points more). So really you are going to need to be able to use your 1ksons in their ideal position for them to be worth using: rapid firing stuff that isn't in cover. This is tricky, but when you manage it the results are devastating. The point i'm getting to with all this is that you are only going to want 1 squad of thousand sons. There simply won't be enough oppertunities to use 2 efficiently. Icon discussion can be found in several threads around here so i'll keep it brief. Icon of Tzeentch is simply bad. Its overpriced and cover isn't hard to get, plus it leaves the squad without anything to compensate for lack of fearless. MoS isn't great on vanilla marines, but its also not terrible if you want to get some meltas. Meltas are the onyl reason to use icon marines over noise marines. Chaos glory is a better icon for a melta marine squad but you'll have to decide if you are using undivided or not. If you arn't, i'd say stick to noise marines and 1ksons as your troops and get your anti tank elsewhere. HQs: Sorcerers are cool, but not that efficient. If you really want to use them, you want to avoid using Bolt of Change. Its not really that great of an anti tank weapon, and you can get cheaper anti tank than from an HQ sorc. If you use a tzeentch sorc, either keep him really cheap with just wings/disk and warptime, or go all the way with disk, warptime, and wind. This is a killer. However, both of these combinations are simply better on daemon princes, because daemon princes are amazing. Double daemon prince is your most powerful option, but i can understand you not wanting to do this for fluff reasons. If you want 1 dp and 1 sorc, i'd suggest a tzeentch DP and a lash sorc. The reason for this is that lash sorcs lash things just as well as lash princes, and can hide in squads so live longer. Give him wings and hop him around where needed, hide in squads and hide in transports. Then give the prince MoTz and wings, then warptime and if you feel like splurging wind as well. Either way its a brutal unit, and you'll be forcing your opponent to either get rid of the dp thats killing everything or deal with the ninja-lasher. Anti tank: As both your troop options are anti infantry, you really need to get a lot of anti tank from elsewhere. Sadly, preds just arn't going to cut it. Las preds are way too expensive, and way too easy to silence (and if daemon posessed way to inaccurate). For anti tank you really want to be looking at obliterators and suicide terminator squads. A squad of 3 oblits, your daemon prince, and a termicide squad will solve anti tank problems at 1500 and below. If you are playing higher you'll want another termicide squad, and then something like a vindicator or defiler (or two or both) that can threaten armor while also able to do other things. You will still struggle with full mech/armored opponents however, but thats just the reality of playing this sort of list. Terminators: Terminators in a land raider are nice and fluffy, but sadly they just arn't very good for their price. Remember that raiders arn't that great at killing, so whatever squad is in them needs to not only justify its own point cost but also most of the raider's cost. The only thing that really does this is berserkers. If you want terminators, do termicide. Just 3 guys with 3 combi meltas. Cheap, and destroys tanks. You still get the modelling opperunities to theme them as tzeentch, but leave the icon off. Target saturation Target saturation is an even larger issue for a Slaantch army than others. You don't have a whole lot of guys on the table, and you will need to rely on some of your bigger, nastier units to pull you through. If a daemon prince is your only big guy, he'll be an obvious target and your opponent will just be playing Kill the Daemon Prince. You need to have enough threatening units to force him to split fire or pick only 1 to destroy. Because of this i recommend trying to fit some defilers or vindicators in. For example, my pure slaanesh list is a DP, sorc, 2 doom siren squads, a blastmaster squad, 3 oblits, and 2 defilers. Its small and a bit lacking in bodies, but its got 3 big units that threaten every unit type. Also, you may wish to consider a couple daemon squads if you would rather saturate infantry than armor. They can provide the body count that noise marines and thousand sons can't. Anyhow, i can't suggest an exact list or anything, but i hope this gives you some more food for thought when designing your list. I can go into more detail/math on any of this stuff if you want. <3 Lucy EDIT: Almost forget. Every squads needs a rhino unless its a pure sonic blaster noise marine squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176253-a-cult-of-slanntch/#findComment-2086947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellbreaker Posted August 22, 2009 Author Share Posted August 22, 2009 EDIT: Almost forget. Every squads needs a rhino unless its a pure sonic blaster noise marine squad. Every squad already have a rhino. :P Never thought of having a Tzeentch prince, lash sorc really... That'd be like... When you get 1 free burger but there's two burgers that's equally expensive... :D The horror! Me like... So I should drop the raider and the pred and get another Oblit and a defiler? The Defiler is a good vehicle indeed but I can't see how it justifies it's cost really, it has rather poor shooting and isn't really that great in CC... Or maybe I'm just lucky every time I face one... My man though about the Land raider was to have a fire magnet, but it does really take up a lot of points... Now I'll have to edit the list again though, damn... But well, drop raider, get Defiler and more oblits. Sounds like a plan. I must not forget to replace a TS unit NM's either... Cheers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176253-a-cult-of-slanntch/#findComment-2086952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Raiders can be nice fire magnets, but if you run any you really want 2. Lists with 1 raider revolve around it. That means that all your enemy has to do is counter it in the first turn or two and you'll lose. 2 Raiders are more than most lists can handle and often only one will need to succeed to do considerable damage. However, double raider isn't a great idea in this sort of list as you don't have anything great to put in them, and you are dealing with expensive units for the rest of your force already. Defilers are actually very nice on paper. Always give them double close combat weapons. 6 strength 10 power weapon attacks on the charge are no joke, and I3 means you still go before power fists. They will drop to enemy heavy weapons, but that means your daemon prince won't be. Run it forward shooting the battlecannon, but prioritize getting it into CC. Fleet makes 2nd turn charges fairly easy with it. It also has the strength to take down things like raiders or even monoliths. You'll probably find that it'll die a lot, but that doesn't mean it isn't doing its job. Take advantage of the threat is poses to your enemies, and remember its a good size to give your prince cover behind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176253-a-cult-of-slanntch/#findComment-2086960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zealot Of Chaos Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 defilers work well in pairs Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176253-a-cult-of-slanntch/#findComment-2086984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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