Great Company?

[eyeslikethunder]

I might have 151 i will look in my garage tonight

 

But i have found my Epic stuff

 

Armies of the Imperium box set

 

Space wolf Great companies are made up of 1 Great company card and 5 support cards to represent each Great company of which you may up to 12 twelve Great companies and does make statement about how this does make them much larger than normal chapter. "This means that a Space wolf Force can be Potentially very Large Indeed." Although how big only comes clear when you actually read the cards

 

It also says

"like the other chapters the space wolves were reorganised after the horus heresy according to the codex astartes. However , their Primarch the famous Leman Russ was never conventional and chapter soon adapted to suit its leaders fierce warrior Mentality" then goes on about 12 great companies and wolf lords.

 

This suggests that Leman gave way to the codex then once things had settled down started to ignore it and changed the space wolves into structure we know today

 

 

 

The Great company card is made up of

 

20 wolf guard and 120 grey hunters

 

the support cards are made up of

 

25 Blood claws

25 Blood claw bikes

50 Grey hunters

20 Long fangs

Land Speeder Squadron

 

so if we took 1 of each

 

We get a Great Company of

 

20 Wolf Guard

170 Grey Hunters

50 Blood claws

20 Long fangs

 

260 total

although you could go as high as 390 Marines

 

 

A space marine company is 100 in this system just i case you wanted to know. This seems to support the about 200-300.

 

It is of the only size stated by GW for a great company i have seen so far.

[Legatus]

The same question was asked not too long ago, so here are my own speculations on how a great company might look.

 

There are no exact figures, but at least we know that the majority of a great company is composed of Grey Hunters. The next biggest amount would probably be Blood Claws, and then a few long fangs. The Great Company might also include a few scouts, depending on the Codex you are looking at (in 2nd Ed. all Scouts belonged to the company of the Great Wolf). Finally, the Wolf Lord has his bodyguard of between 5 and 20 Wolf Guard.

 

A Great Company might look something like this:

 

1 Wolf Lord

 

60 Grey Hunters

 

40 Blood Claws

 

10 Long Fangs

 

10 Scouts

 

10 Wolf Guard

 

Plus vehicles.

 

That is no standardised structure, so the numbers may vary from Great Company to Great Company. Another company might be bigger or smaller, and have a different amount of certain unit types. Generally though the majority will be Grey Hunters. There should also be a fair amount of Blood Claws since it is expected that not all Blood Claws will make it to be Grey Hunters, and fewer still will make it to Long Fangs.

You can vary the unit sizes, since it is no standardised structure, and that is simply my own estimation on how an average great company might be composed.

I have had the assumption for years that a typical great company would be around 120-130 members strong, but I am not sure how I came to that conclusion. It might have been rooted somewhere in the 2nd Edition fluff, but when browsing through the 2nd Edition Codex recently I did not find any clues.

 

The Great company card is made up of

 

(...)

 

260 total

although you could go as high as 390 Marines

 

 

A space marine company is 100 in this system just i case you wanted to know. This seems to support the about 200-300.

IIRC an epic battle company consisted of 3 tactical squads, 3 assault squads and 3 devastator squads, so I am not sure how much you can take the epic company structures and apply them to 40K. Also, codex battle companies could get 5 support cards on top of those 90 marines as well, which were mostly used for vehicles like predators or whirlwinds, and most of the standard support cards were available to Space Wolves as well. And as the background describes, the Space Wolves do not have their tanks as part of the armoury, but instead each great company has it's own tanks, so it stands to reason that most of the support cards should realistically be used for supporting tanks and not for padding the epic company out with as much infantry as possible.

[eyeslikethunder]

True but it does state that those support cards were part of the great companies in the SW which represent the varying nature of the Great companies which is not true of the marine companies plus they would still be bigger than your figures even without the extra support cards and if you only took one long fang card and one blood claws to create a basic great company that is still nearly twice as large as a normal.

 

 

 

Plus the book goes on about how much bigger their forces are than than normal marines.

your figures are pure guesses where mine are direct quotes from GW.

[Legatus]

your figures are pure guesses where mine are direct quotes from GW.

True, but then according to the same source a codex battle company consists of 30 Tactical Marines, 30 Assault Marines and 30 Devastators. I think you will understand that I am a bit reluctant to rely on that source.

[eyeslikethunder]

It still has states that there 100 marines in company you deny it because it disagrees with you

 

 

If WD151 says its 300 will accept you are wrong? or will that be white dwarf they alway make mistakes? and still does not change your lack of numbers in conflicting quote

[Legatus]

It still has states that there 100 marines in company you deny it because it disagrees with you

I am not familiar with all the epic texts. Iam only skimming through the "Armies of the Imperium" book right now, and am trying to figure out how exactly the army composition works.

 

From what I can see, a battle company consists of 90 Marines plus the HQ, which is I assume a nother 5 guys, including the captain and standard bearer. Where in that book does it state that a battle company consists of 100 marines, not including teh captain?

And if the book does state that a battle company consists of 100 marines, but then the rules are not following that composition for simplicity sake, I dare say it is reasonable to assume that the Space Wolves rules are likewise not intended to reflect the fluff.

 

If WD151 says its 300 will accept you are wrong?

If the WD 151 says that it would certainly be very interresting, since so far no one seems to have been able to find anything specific. WDs sometimes get things wrong, but that is usually the case for battle reports, and not so much editorially written articles, and I could not make any claims for mistakes without having read the article and perhaps finding other inconsistencies which would justify doubt.

 

Plus the book goes on about how much bigger their forces are than than normal marines.

As far as I can tell Space Marine forces are limited in the number of companie cards they can take, and in the number of detachments each compan can have. The description of the Space Wolves forces explains that they are only limited in the number of company cards (12), but not in the number of detachments each company can get, and thus a Space WOlves force can be very large. The text is not specifically speaking of a great company, but of the whole force.

Even with only 130 Marines per great company, a full Space Wolves Chapter would have at least 1560 men, which ist quite a bit larger than a Codex Chapter.

[Vash113]

I admit I am at a loss as to why you are here Legatus, what point are you trying to make? What exactly is your argument? All I can see is you arguing for the sake of arguing. I can't recall a discussion about the size of the Space Wolves that you haven't joined in and tried to disagree with everyone else.

 

Honestly I don't get it, the members of the Fang have long argued the topic and come to a general consensus, which you seem to find a burning need to disagree with. Yet I have not once seen a credible argument come from you against the general estimates of the Wolves. So I am at a loss as to what point you are trying to make.

[eyeslikethunder]

You still have not been able to find another quote backing your 130 figure guess which that purely a guess where i have an official GW Army list saying your wrong. The army list says Great companies vary a lot in size with 140 the minimum if you have no blood claws or long fangs or as high as 390 with realistic compositions giving about 200-300.

 

This allows lists up to 4680 marines with around 3000 if took a realistic list in which Great companies each have Blood claws and Long fangs which they logically would. Where you cannot build ultramarine list above 1000.

 

I await your GW quote which has alternative numbers for space wolves rather than guesses.

[Legatus]

How about I cite Epic Space Marines as my source? ;) You have been interpreting the Space Wolves army composition from epic rather arbitrary, so let me point out a few things:

 

the support cards are made up of

 

25 Blood claws

25 Blood claw bikes

50 Grey hunters

20 Long fangs

Land Speeder Squadron

 

so if we took 1 of each

 

We get a Great Company of

 

20 Wolf Guard

170 Grey Hunters

50 Blood claws

20 Long fangs

 

260 total

 

- Point one: Support Cards are optional. They are not required to adequately represent a company, as is evident by the fact that codex chapter companies are already pretty much complete with just the basic company card. So it stands to reason that in order to represent a proper or average Space Wolves company you would not use all allowed support cards, and perhaps even not use any support cards at all. While some great companies may be larger, the average great company is perhaps represented by just the basic great company card.

 

- Point two: Space Wolves are not just limited to their own special support cards, but can also chose chose a lot of the basic Space Marine support cards such as Attack Bikes, Dreadnoughts, Land Riders, Predators, Razorbacks, Whirlwinds, Thudd Guns and I guess a few more. With the Space Wolves all those choices would not be attached from the armoury but are all considered part of the great company, so it stands to reason that a predator squadron would be juts as viable a choice of a support card as a pack of long fangs, meaning that at least half of the support cards that are used, if not more, should be spent on supporting vehicles, not additional infantry.

 

- Point three: You will probably object and claim that in order to acurately represent a great company the epic army would have to have at least one support detachment or blood claws and one support detachment of long fangs. But then I would refer you to the Epic Space marines representation of a Battle Company and in turn claim that the epic company compositions are merely approximations, and not intended to most acurately represent a company as the fluff would describe it, so a great company with the 20 wolf guard and 100 average Space Wolf warriors (grey hunters) could be taken as an average great company according to the epic army list approximation.

 

 

Taking those points into account I suggest that in order to represent an average Space Wolves great company with the epic army lists you would:

 

- NOT use all 5 allowed support cards, only 2-3, or even none at all

 

- use support vehicle squadrons first, since the basic great company card comes with a decent number of default infantry and transports, but no heavy vehicles

 

If you construct your great company according to those guide lines, then it will not be much more than 130-150 Marines.

[Megalodon]

I might have 151 i will look in my garage tonight

 

But i have found my Epic stuff

 

Armies of the Imperium box set

 

Space wolf Great companies are made up of 1 Great company card and 5 support cards to represent each Great company of which you may up to 12 twelve Great companies and does make statement about how this does make them much larger than normal chapter. "This means that a Space wolf Force can be Potentially very Large Indeed." Although how big only comes clear when you actually read the cards

 

It also says

"like the other chapters the space wolves were reorganised after the horus heresy according to the codex astartes. However , their Primarch the famous Leman Russ was never conventional and chapter soon adapted to suit its leaders fierce warrior Mentality" then goes on about 12 great companies and wolf lords.

 

 

The Great company card is made up of

 

20 wolf guard and 120 grey hunters

 

the support cards are made up of

 

25 Blood claws

25 Blood claw bikes

50 Grey hunters

20 Long fangs

Land Speeder Squadron

 

Unfortunately I can only find my GC card right now. I could have sworn that the BC abd LF cards were 6 stands each and the BC bikes were 5 stands, thanks for the correction! Now I'm gonna have to go dig through the garage this weekend!

[Grey Mage]

your figures are pure guesses where mine are direct quotes from GW.

True, but then according to the same source a codex battle company consists of 30 Tactical Marines, 30 Assault Marines and 30 Devastators. I think you will understand that I am a bit reluctant to rely on that source.

And C:SM states theres 100 marines in a company and 1k in a chapter- despite the fact that by codex organization thats not possible.

 

So why are we quibbling?

[Vash113]

So why are we quibbling?

 

Beats the heck out of me. Somehow an argument about Epic spawned out of this and I can't even tell what point is trying to be made. :huh:

[Valerian]

The size of a Great Company should not be measured by the number of men or machines, but rather by cost. When you've spent $500 stop..... Your Great Company is plenty big enough.

 

Valerian

[Florida Gator]

agreed. this discussion has nothing to do with codex space marines... so answering the question of how many wolves are in a great company by saying, "well c:sm says..." is pointless. but if you must know, a codex company includes sixty tactical marines, twenty assault, and twenty devs. sorry mods, just telling the truth without starting a new topic :huh: . In other news, this is getting off topic so i'll say again as i had on the first page, unless you can find real proof of something, i think we should all agree that its up to the company's respective wolf lord (you), and that you have as many wolves as possible to fit your game, but as a cost AND tactically effective force for the wolf lord (you). just my two cents. what you think?

[Legatus]

And C:SM states theres 100 marines in a company and 1k in a chapter- despite the fact that by codex organization thats not possible.

 

So why are we quibbling?

Simply conclusion: If the Battle Company (one of the most well known formations in 40K) presented by the Epic rules is not acurate, the Great Company is very likely also not acurate.

 

(The C:SM usually is a bit more specific, and correct, in describing that a Company consists of 10 squads of 10 Marines each.)

 

Beats the heck out of me. Somehow an argument about Epic spawned out of this and I can't even tell what point is trying to be made.

I did use a lot of text, so maybe it was hard to follow.

 

Initially, since the original thread was about a great company layout more than it was on a specific size, I had given my guess on what the ratio of different Space Wolves unit types might be in a great company, which I assume you will agree is directly response to the OT question.

I gave an example with an assumed great company size of 130, but I did point out that the unit sizes can vary and that the number was based on my own assumptions.

 

I did also, however, felt the need to point out that the epic source is for one thing unreliable (citing the incorrect Battle Company composition as an indicator), and that it is also usually applied incorrectly, using the maximum amout of support cards, where a complete battle company would not use any, and only adding further infantry detachments while completely forgoing any tank support which would usually also be part of a great company. I hope you are not dismissing those arguments as being not valid.

[Grey Mage]

And C:SM states theres 100 marines in a company and 1k in a chapter- despite the fact that by codex organization thats not possible.

 

So why are we quibbling?

Simply conclusion: If the Battle Company (one of the most well known formations in 40K) presented by the Epic rules is not acurate, the Great Company is very likely also not acurate.

 

(The C:SM usually is a bit more specific, and correct, in describing that a Company consists of 10 squads of 10 Marines each.)

Except C:SM is incorrect in stating that a company consists of 10 squads of 10 marines each. It fails to mention the Captain, command squad and *debatably* dreadnaughts or attached chaplains. It also doesnt note the Drives of said rhinos *who are not bondsmen it should be noted* or the pilots of the thunderhawks *which are debatable*.

 

The size of a "Codex" company is approximately 118 *60 tacs+20 devs+20 assault+10 drivers+5 Command+ Captain+ 2 Dreadnaughts *average*+ Chaplain*.

 

The simple fact is that all of this is made up, and with the contributions of dozens of people- the numbers will always vary. Im not saying your arguments about epic are invalid, though we both know I disagree with your conclusions, Im just saying that the validity of any of these numbers is open to debate and epic measurements are as valid as C:SM overall.

 

***

 

My own numbers are figured out as so:

 

We know each GC has a Wolf Lord *marks down a tally*. We also know there are approximately 20 Wolf Gaurd in a GC *marks down 19 more* including battle leaders. Fluff seems to indicate that each GC has an attached WP and RP but well leave them out for the moment, and perhaps leave out the Iron Priests as well as they are not part of the actual GC hierarch- but it should be noted thats approximately 5-10 additional marines *for sake of argument Ill assume three Iron Priests are required to upkeep a GCs strike cruiser, tanks, and equipment*.

 

So, going off of ~19 wolf gaurd we can look to other marine codices and fluff and see an average of one veteran per squad. Average size of a BC pack being around 15 *fluff numbers being upwards of 25 or as low as 3-4* and figuring most GH packs being around 9 individuals. Long fangs probly clock in at ~ 4 members per squad- so assuming a 60% rate of GH packs compared to the total of the three we get about 120 GHs, 20% BC gets us another 45-50, and long fangs give us another 12-16 members. Rounding down on BC and up on LF gets us 201 marines so far.

 

Making an educated guess from the fluff gives me 2-3 scout packs per GC, perhaps more but Ill err on the side of conservatism- this gives us about 10-12 scouts. So say, 211 total. 2-5 Dreadnaughts, one or two of whom may be venerable also seems likely from the fluff, but theyll be ignored sadly as they are part of the Great Wolfs company. Not all GCs accept wulfen in the ranks, so we can similarly drop their numbers *doubtful more than 3 per GC, likely only 1*. While pilots are alluded to being Grey Hunters in several sources we can assume those numbers are included in the above packs, as well as student wolf priests and rune priests *iron priests remain seperate again*. Rhino Drivers are debatable, as C:SM shows, so Ill split the difference and add 10 GHs to drive them. Well follow C:SMs lead on other vehicles and the old idea that they are understrength packs.

 

This gives us 221 marines in a GC as a rough estimate. Putting all 12 companies together gets us 2672 marines. We add in about 36 Dreads *average of above numbers* and a minimum 12 wolf priests, 12 rune priests, and 36 iron priests puts us at 2732 marines, adding in acolytes of different sorts and a few very venerable brothers puts my estimate around 2750 marines, give or take 300 depending on wich fluff takes precidence of even wich century your in. This includes no Lost Companies as I feel it would be unwise to count them into the chapters strength.

 

Black Templars, the largest known chapter ammount to approximately 4400 on the high end and atleast 3200 on the low end- half a codex chapter above space wolves, with potentially other crusading chapters in between our two sizes in strength.

[Legatus]

Except C:SM is incorrect in stating that a company consists of 10 squads of 10 marines each. It fails to mention the Captain, command squad and *debatably* dreadnaughts or attached chaplains. It also doesnt note the Drives of said rhinos *who are not bondsmen it should be noted* or the pilots of the thunderhawks *which are debatable*.

If you check your copy of the current Codex Space Marines you will find that the Chapter Organisation on page 16 does mention the company's Captain, Dreadnoughts and transports (not specifically the drivers though), as well as additional staff such as Chaplains, Librarians and Techmarines.

 

The current Codex does make a mistake on page 7, where it states in the description of the reformation into chapters that each chapter would be "a thousand battle brothers strong". Previous Codices where more correct when they were stating that a Chapter consisted of "approximately" or "roughly" a thousand Battle Brothers, and each Codex has usually made it quite clear in it's detailed description of a Chapter's organisation where that simplified "1000 battle brothers" approximation came from (i.e. the 10 companies with 10 squads of 10 men). The Codices have not usually tried to hide the fact that a Chapter had more than 1000 members in total. But naturally it is simpler to refer to the "1000" organisation structure than to the "thousand-something" chapter structure.

 

***

 

Edit: I like a bit of number crunching. However, I have a few objections to your premisses and your actions.

 

We know each GC has a Wolf Lord *marks down a tally*. We also know there are approximately 20 Wolf Gaurd in a GC *marks down 19 more* including battle leaders. Fluff seems to indicate that each GC has an attached WP and RP but well leave them out for the moment, and perhaps leave out the Iron Priests as well as they are not part of the actual GC hierarch- but it should be noted thats approximately 5-10 additional marines *for sake of argument Ill assume three Iron Priests are required to upkeep a GCs strike cruiser, tanks, and equipment*.

If we want to compare how big a Space Wolves company is to a simple "100" strong Codex company we can safely dismiss all Lords, Chaplains Librarians or other specialists. Great Companies have them just as Battle COmpanies have them, so we can ignore them entirely in our comparison.

 

We also know there are approximately 20 Wolf Gaurd in a GC

We know there are 20 tops. It could just as well be as few as 5, or perhaps 10. Even in 2nd Edition, where all other Space Wolves squads were fixed at a size of 10, the Wolf Guard had a variable unit size. I disagree with simply taking the maximum possible amount as the average or default size.

 

So, going off of ~19 wolf gaurd we can look to other marine codices and fluff and see an average of one veteran per squad.

THat observation is completely arbitrary and not applicable. Naturally when you organise your men into 6 squads of 15 instead of 9 squads of 10 you will have a different "X per squad" ratio, all without actually having a different amount of men. Why not compare the amount of individual Wolf Guard to the amount of individual other Marines? Or why not compare the amount of Wolf Guard units to the amount of other units? Going with individual Wolf Guard but looking at the amount of other units will lead you to a different comclusion, hence it is arbitrary.

 

For example: Codex Chapters have 1 squad of Veterans per 9 Squads of regular Marines. Taking your squad sizes (20 WG, 9 GH, 25 BC, 4 LF, 4 S) and assuming 4 squads of Grey Hunters, 2 squads of Blood Claws, 2 squads of Long Fangs and 1 Squad fo Scouts I get 118 Marines.

 

I personally think it would make more sense to compare the ratio of individuals instead of squads, so assuming 20 Wolf Guard the Great Company would have the size of 200 men (10% of which are veterans, like with a Codex Chapter). If you took an average of 12-13 Wolf Guard instead, you would get a great company size of 120-130 men instead.

 

 

My own numbers are figured out as so:

FWIW, I have had the assumed size of about 120 per great company in my head for years, possibly since 2nd or 3rd Edition, but I do not remember whether that was based on any particular source. One argument why a great company would probably not be much larger than 130 men would be because that way the whole Chapter would not be much bigger than 1500 Battle Brothers (analogue to the "1000" of a regular Chapter, naturally, so not counting officiers and specialist staff). What we know about the Space Wolves is that at one point, 10,000 years ago, the former Legion was split into two Chapters, so at that point they must have been about 1000, perhaps slightly more for being mavericks. If they would have 1500 now that means they did not set out to grow much since the 2nd founding, and are simply not really bothering to stick to a formal size. It would also make sense to me that while the Space Wolves are not trying to comply with Codex limitations, they do honour the agreement to reform into a Chapter they have made ten thousand years ago. I think sticking to an agreement they have made all those millenia ago even though they don't really care for the limitations would be very characteristic of the Space Wolves mindset.

[Vodunius]

Alternative simple conclusion: the Battle Company is 5% out, so the Great Company numbers are likewise probably 5% out..

 

Armies of the Imperium does have a few minor discrepancies with modern fluff such as battle company composition, but it still shouldn't be dismissed out of hand - because it was Armies of the Imperium where the chapter structure of the big four as we know them today first appeared (including the first mention of Blood Angels Death Company and Space Wolf squad types).

[Legatus]

Alternative simple conclusion: the Battle Company is 5% out, so the Great Company numbers are likewise probably 5% out..

A reasonable suggestion. But I am not sure that if one amount is mistaken, and another amount in the same source is mistaken as well, that they both are neccessarily mistaken by the same margin.

 

Also, what about the question whether an average great company should be constructed by using all available support cards instead of only some, or even none as with Battle Companies? And what about using all those support cards for additional infantry, instead of equipping the great company with support vehicles it should also technically have?

[Forseti]

I don't think Russ would have split his legion in half just to please papa smurf, I see him making the Wolf Brothers as Russ saying "See, we made one of your 1000man chapters, now quit your bitching"

[c-wrex]

I don't think Russ would have split his legion in half just to please papa smurf, I see him making the Wolf Brothers as Russ saying "See, we made one of your 1000man chapters, now quit your bitching"

 

Ooooooo I came THIS close to sigging that....

[Grey Mage]

Alternative simple conclusion: the Battle Company is 5% out, so the Great Company numbers are likewise probably 5% out..

A reasonable suggestion. But I am not sure that if one amount is mistaken, and another amount in the same source is mistaken as well, that they both are neccessarily mistaken by the same margin.

 

Also, what about the question whether an average great company should be constructed by using all available support cards instead of only some, or even none as with Battle Companies? And what about using all those support cards for additional infantry, instead of equipping the great company with support vehicles it should also technically have?

What about them? I dont use the Epic Cards myself as I frankly dont have them, though I find their information interesting.

 

As for the idea of having 20 tops youd be incorrect- Wolf Gaurd Battle Leaders are also Wolf Gaurd, and not included in the 20- thus its possible for a company to have many more wolf gaurd then 20. Making a GC at 7500pts for instance gives you space for a wolf lord and 9 WGBLs as well as 20 wolf gaurd. Considering the price of GHs and large Bloodclaw packs its not beyond reason to make a GC at 7500pts either.

 

[Feel free to skip this, its math showing how quickly WGBLs can rack up in a SW force] Lets go with the idea of 12 troops squads though, for about 120 marines like youve proposed. Average Price of a full SW squad of GHs, BCs, or LFs is about 250pts, a wolf gaurd is about 50pts with a CCW and Ranged Weapon, and a WGBL is about 120pts... wolf lord say 150, giving us 3000 pts in troops, another 500 in WG, and going with HQs for that size puts us at needing about six of them once youve payed for them- so 150+600+3500=4250, with another 350 base for 10 rhinos, needing another HQ making it 4720pts. Throw in support elements- say a landraider, vindicator, predator, whirlwind, Vendread *HQ*, another Dreadnaught, a pair of scout squads and a pair of landspeeders- were looking at about 1200pts, putting us at 5940, requiring another HQ, even the cheapest of wich will require yet another HQ on top of that- so lets say 240pts puting us at 6180pts.

 

One more HQ, say a wolf priest at 120pts, lets us reach 7500, and with 1200pts we can take four more troops squads and their transports..... but that would have no effect on the number of battle leaders involved. ] Giving us a total of 7 WGBLs on top of the 12 WGPLs, giving us 19 WG for the smaller GC you propose. 19-20 really is a diplomatic number.

 

And I compare a Great Company to a full Battle Company- including Command, Chaplain, and rhino drivers for reference.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I don't think Russ would have split his legion in half just to please papa smurf, I see him making the Wolf Brothers as Russ saying "See, we made one of your 1000man chapters, now quit your bitching"

 

thats always been my theory...russ not being a fool, made the wolf brothers while guilliman focused on him, then halted all efforts and said "Look brother, i tried!".

guilliman then figured this was the ebst he was going to get out of russ (being a powerful proud warrior and all) and then pointedly looked the other way.

 

WLK

[Forseti]

The Administratum and Ecclesiarchy are already on thin ice after what happened on Armageddon, so I doubt they'll have the guts to try and enforce the codex organization on them.

 

Pissing off Grimnar is a lose-lose situation, the only thing worse than not having the Sons of Russ fighting for you, is have them fight against you..

[OnlyInDeath]

It has NEVER been suggested that the founding of the Wolf Brothers was any more than a standard second founding chapter (which, per the Codex, would be 1k marines). I dont know why people keep saying "oh, well you have one 2nd founding, so that cut you in half". Oh really? did every 2nd founding go 50% of the original? The wolves stand largely intact from what they once were, which is why you do have the prevalence of LOTS of active wolves (see GH's above numbers) not to mention lost companies roaming about, and yet we can still keep replacing any lost gene seed.

 

Now, can we please stop griping? I'm sick of threads that go 3 pages with the most baseless information by trying and TRYING to rationalize what a few lines of fluff MIGHT mean. in the end, we know that wolves arent codex, we know that they are bigger than a codex marine chapter, and we've been given tidbits about how big a great comapny MIGHT be. but in the end it's all speculation as there's NO HARD FLUFF ON IT. i'll say that again NO. HARD. FLUFF. now stop speculating and arguing and drink your damn ale. You would think we got a bunch of dress wearing emos in here instead of the proud sons of Russ. Sweet Emperor, and to think you all could be crushing the skulls of your enemies with the energy wasted here.

 

Now I talked myself parched....where's my ale....