Great Company?

[Forseti]

Sorry OID, with the codex still a month away a lot of us seem to be getting bored and arguing to pass the time XD

 

My last post here ;p

[Legatus]

As for the idea of having 20 tops youd be incorrect- Wolf Gaurd Battle Leaders are also Wolf Gaurd, and not included in the 20- thus its possible for a company to have many more wolf gaurd then 20

In the army list WGBLs are chosen in addition to the 20 allowed Wolf Guard, but according to the fluff description next to the WGBL entry they are selected from the Wolf Guard just before a battle.

 

[Feel free to skip this, its math showing how quickly WGBLs can rack up in a SW force]

Are you trying to construct an argument based on the point costs of models?

 

thats always been my theory...russ not being a fool, made the wolf brothers while guilliman focused on him, then halted all efforts and said "Look brother, i tried!".

You probably meant "Russ being an underhanded and sneaky git...", which I don't find very characteristic of Russ. I would rather say that once he had begrudgingly agreed to comply with Imperial mandate, he did so.

 

It has NEVER been suggested that the founding of the Wolf Brothers was any more than a standard second founding chapter (which, per the Codex, would be 1k marines). I dont know why people keep saying "oh, well you have one 2nd founding, so that cut you in half". Oh really? did every 2nd founding go 50% of the original?

(paraphrased) "The Space Wolves had never been a large Legion, so they were only divided once."

2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves (translated back into english)

 

"The existing Space Marine Legions were divided into new Chapters, one Chapter keeping the name and colours of the original Legion, while the remaining Chapters would take new titles and colours. Most of the old Legions divided into fewer than five Chapters, (the Space Wolves divided into only two) but the Ultramarines were divided many times."

Index Astartes, Codex Astartes

 

As far as the background we do have is concerned, the Space Wolves Legion was divided into the Space Wolves Chapter and the Wolf Brothers Chapter during the 2nd Founding. The 2nd Edition Codex explained this with the small number of Space Wolves.

Edit: So what we can deduct from that is that before the 2nd founding, the Space Wolves Legion did not have much more than 2000 Marines.

 

The wolves stand largely intact from what they once were, which is why you do have the prevalence of LOTS of active wolves

They would probably have taken a few casualties during the attack on prospero, but according to the 2nd Edition description they were never a very big Legion to begin with.

 

not to mention lost companies roaming about

Without the facilities to create Space Marines, any lost company would not be roaming about for longer than 200 years, probably less due to attrition.

[OnlyInDeath]

As for the idea of having 20 tops youd be incorrect- Wolf Gaurd Battle Leaders are also Wolf Gaurd, and not included in the 20- thus its possible for a company to have many more wolf gaurd then 20

In the army list WGBLs are chosen in addition to the 20 allowed Wolf Guard, but according to the fluff description next to the WGBL entry they are selected from the Wolf Guard just before a battle.

 

[Feel free to skip this, its math showing how quickly WGBLs can rack up in a SW force]

Are you trying to construct an argument based on the point costs of models?

 

thats always been my theory...russ not being a fool, made the wolf brothers while guilliman focused on him, then halted all efforts and said "Look brother, i tried!".

You probably meant "Russ being an underhanded and sneaky git...", which I don't find very characteristic of Russ. I would rather say that once he had begrudgingly agreed to comply with Imperial mandate, he did so.

 

It has NEVER been suggested that the founding of the Wolf Brothers was any more than a standard second founding chapter (which, per the Codex, would be 1k marines). I dont know why people keep saying "oh, well you have one 2nd founding, so that cut you in half". Oh really? did every 2nd founding go 50% of the original?

(paraphrased) "The Space Wolves had never been a large Legion, so they were only divided once."

2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves (translated back into english)

 

"The existing Space Marine Legions were divided into new Chapters, one Chapter keeping the name and colours of the original Legion, while the remaining Chapters would take new titles and colours. Most of the old Legions divided into fewer than five Chapters, (the Space Wolves divided into only two) but the Ultramarines were divided many times."

Index Astartes, Codex Astartes

 

As far as the background we do have is concerned, the Space Wolves Legion was divided into the Space Wolves Chapter and the Wolf Brothers Chapter during the 2nd Founding. The 2nd Edition Codex explained this with the small number of Space Wolves.

Edit: So what we can deduct from that is that before the 2nd founding, the Space Wolves Legion did not have much more than 2000 Marines.

 

The wolves stand largely intact from what they once were, which is why you do have the prevalence of LOTS of active wolves

They would probably have taken a few casualties during the attack on prospero, but according to the 2nd Edition description they were never a very big Legion to begin with.

 

not to mention lost companies roaming about

Without the facilities to create Space Marines, any lost company would not be roaming about for longer than 200 years, probably less due to attrition.

 

 

Dude, just stop. your logic is taking giant leaps and bounds that are not necessarily logical to make. Everyone is tired with arguing with you. If you want to say we are a chapter of 1200 marines, fine, say that. But arguing with you is like arguing with a table, and just about as pointless. You make an incredible amounts of "deductions" and blanket statements, and that's not how a true debate works. when you degenerate a thread down to petty arguing, it's time to stop. I really hope one of the mods comes in here and shuts this down, because it's just pathetic now.

[Legatus]

But arguing with you is like arguing with a table

Did you by chance mean "diner room table"?

 

I just like to object to very liberal interpretations on how big a great company might possibly be. The interpretations usually are based on faulty claims that the Space Wolves did not reform into a Chapter, which I cannot leave uncommented. Arguments from the number of Veterans or the Epic Space Marines great company rules are usually based on questionoable interpretations as well, as I have tried to point out.

 

You make an incredible amounts of "deductions" and blanket statements, and that's not how a true debate works.

I actually spent most of my posts dismanteling the baseless claims or questionable interpretations based on arbitrary numbers made by others. And I provided actual quotes proving that the premise of a full Legion strength 2nd founding Space Wolves Chapter is false. So that feels a bit like projection.

[cherrboh]

Dont ask me to deliver my source, because i cannot for the life of me remember, but i couldve sworn i read something about a massive depletion of the sw numbers shortly after the heresy finished.

 

guess what it was? Well, as i seem to recall, Lemas Russ himself, along with ALL his Wolf Lords and their companies with the exception of 1 WL and company to go and battle the enemies of the emperor and will return in the "end days". The WL he left behind at the time was very young, but is to this day the oldest "living" member of the SW chapter. Bjorn the Fell-Handed, Venerable Dreadnaught.

 

Now, if this was the case, one could guess that the legion may have been around 25 000 -30 000, and with russ leaving with 12 companies (at that time, their were officially 13) if you say that Bjorns company was one of 13 companies, 30 000 / 13 = 2307 approx, so lets just say 2000. it would be close enough to make the other chapters think the SW were not going traitor any time soon.

 

Then, the creation of the Wolf Brothers splits the SW in two, presuming a whole half of the SW would leave to merely start a chapter, unlikely. Anyway, presuming they did, that leaves approx. 1000 SW.

 

Now, as has been mentioned SW are not the most codex of all chapters. they still had 13 companies. so after a few hundred years, each company is back to 100 marines approx per company, SW Chapter now has 1 300 marines. one chapter leaves for eye of terror, thus 13th company. This company is never replaced, therefore leaving the space wolves at around 1200 marines.

 

This, i feel, almost any codex marine player could accept to be true, following the logical, but perhaps lacking of solid proof path that i have made. But at least 1200. Thats being stingy to the SW.

 

-----------

 

Now, the 13th company represents not only the 13th company that was lost, but clearly states it represents lost companies, or wl that may have gone wayward. This leaves room for multiple companies, depleted or numerous.

 

This is where myself being a SW fan comes in. You could easily say in the years since russ' departure, numerous companies have gone looking for him, or gone on "crusades". Furthermore, their may have been some WL that just went off, or were declared lost for some reason. Additionally, the Great Wolf could create multiple companies and send them out on century long missions, using the cover of "lost" under the representation of the 13th company.

 

Again, also, the structure comes into place. SW are an unorthodox chapter, and run very differently to the codex chapters. each can run completely independantly of the chapter if you follow the SW books. This means they can do their own recruitment from fenris or similar planets(unlikely from other planets) but that certain companies may recruit more than others etc.

 

If the SW felt they needed to replenish to the levels they were left at when russ left, the chapter would go back to 2000 marines approx. THIS DOES NOT EVEN INCLUDE THE ONES I MENTIONED ARE "LOST" wink wink. So, now 12 companies, because the 13th represents the lost, you have 2000/12 = 166.666 recuring marines on average per great company. if you say that there are 160 per company, give or take, and that the left overs go to the great company as WP, RP etc, a SW company would be about 160 men strong, with a chapter of 2000 men strong.

 

Each chapter runs independantly, so must provide its own crews and such for vehicles, so you could say 15-20 crew per company. that leaves 140 fighting force.

 

Scout squads, those who prefer a stealthy way of fighting, are not initiate marines, and stay in small squads.

lets say 3 squads of 5. thats 15

Long Fangs, the older marines of a company, grizzled veterans that have grown old with their pack, the survivors of their blood claw and grey hunter days, are in packs of between(fluff wise) 4-7.

You may have say 3 of these squads, depending on company, so lets say 20.

Wolf guard may number around 15-20 per company, the companies fighting elite.

Two Squads of Blood claws, fresh off the line, 15 per squad, 2 squads, 30 BC.

about 15 support staff (WP, RP, IP) and retinues.

Four Grey Hunter packs, each with 10 soldiers, 40 GH.

 

Keeping in mind drivers would fight had they needed to, and would be GH, supports that grey hunters are majority of company.

 

Thats 160 marines.

 

Now, some may be smaller or larger than other companies. What people also havent taken into account, is that SW are space marines. A high attrition rate compared to a normal codex chapter may be an extra death or two per company per year. SM are hard arses. Blood claws are still SM, so even if it takes about 10 years for them to become grey hunters, with more BC coming in all the time, they wouldnt be cannon fodder like many seem to think.

 

 

 

Cliffs

-So, in conclusion, i think its fair to say theirs about 2000 marines that are still officially a part of the SW Chapter, with about 160 marines per Great Company.

-Furthermore, there is an indefinate amount of SW wondering around the universe that may be using the facade of a "lost company".

-Space Wolves are the best.

[Sharpsilver]

Dont ask me to deliver my source, because i cannot for the life of me remember, but i couldve sworn i read something about a massive depletion of the sw numbers shortly after the heresy finished.

 

guess what it was? Well, as i seem to recall, Lemas Russ himself, along with ALL his Wolf Lords and their companies with the exception of 1 WL and company to go and battle the enemies of the emperor and will return in the "end days". The WL he left behind at the time was very young, but is to this day the oldest "living" member of the SW chapter. Bjorn the Fell-Handed, Venerable Dreadnaught.

 

Leman Russ left with only the 13th Company into the Eye of Terror.

[cherrboh]

Dont ask me to deliver my source, because i cannot for the life of me remember, but i couldve sworn i read something about a massive depletion of the sw numbers shortly after the heresy finished.

 

guess what it was? Well, as i seem to recall, Lemas Russ himself, along with ALL his Wolf Lords and their companies with the exception of 1 WL and company to go and battle the enemies of the emperor and will return in the "end days". The WL he left behind at the time was very young, but is to this day the oldest "living" member of the SW chapter. Bjorn the Fell-Handed, Venerable Dreadnaught.

 

Leman Russ left with only the 13th Company into the Eye of Terror.

 

 

well then =D.

 

aha, doesnt matter, still leaves a friggen load of SW wandering about then doesnt it?

[Legatus]

The 13th Company pursued the Thousand Sons when they were fleeing from Prospero. Leman Russ disappeared later. The index Astartes describes that Russ and all of his retinue except for the youngest (Bjorn) "strode out of the great hall". I do not think that this refers to Russ taking all companies but one with him.

[cherrboh]

k man chill, i already said i made a mistake. fahhh

[Legatus]

I was more correcting Sharpsilvers remark about Russ leaving with the 13th company than commenting on your interpretation.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Is there anything new to say here or are we all just going over old ground.

 

Let's face it, there is very little data around.

 

We know that the VI Legion were modest in size but even a modest Legion numbered in the tens of thousands of marines.

 

At the time of 2nd Founding there are no evidence of them being only 2K strong or that the Wolf Brothers were set up as a Codex Chapter.

 

We know that there are at least 13 Great Companies and all are bigger than a C:SM Battle Company.

 

We also know that there are up to 20 Wolf Guard and that Grey Hunters make up the bulk of a Great Company. However, Blood Claws come in packs of up to 15.

 

Space Wolves don't have a scout company but the Great Wolf's Great Company includes them and all other Headquarters staff, including Dreadnoughts, Wolf Priests etc to make it the largest Great Company. It would be reasonable to conclude that the on becoming Great Wolf the chosen Wolf Lord's Great Company would hold itself slightly separate from the headquarters elements to retain its own unit ethos and character.

 

There may be more but much of the rest is just höpöhöpö :P

[Legatus]

Here is what we have:

 

1. The background does not state how big the Space Wolves Legion was at the time of the 2nd founding.

 

2. The background states that the Space Wolves were divided into two Chapters, and that it is because they were not a large Legion.

 

3. The background states that the goal of the 2nd founding was to reform the Legions into smaller Chapters of roughly 1000 battle brothers.

 

The only logical conclusion you can reach with that information is that therefor the Space Wolves Legion must have been about 2000 battle brothers strong at the time of the 2nd founding. Perhaps a few hundred more. That conclusion is based entirely on the information we are being given. The "assumption" made is that when the space wolves texts state that the Legion was divided into two chapter that it refers to the same concepts that are used for all the other heresy/founding background.

 

The conclusion a few others here are liberally making, that the Space Wolves "only created one 2nd founding Chapter, therefor the rest of the Legion remained with the Space Wolves and they are still Legion sized" can not be made based on those facts. You would have to assume that the Space Wolves had full Legion size during the time of the 2nd founding and that the "Chapters" they were divided into are not supposed to be what is meant by "Chapter" in the rest of the heresy/founding background.

 

I could point out how arbitrary especially the latter assumption is, but I could also just refer to occams razor.

 

 

 

Edit: I see you changed some of the more confrontational bits, which is quite welcome.

 

At the time of 2nd Founding there are no evidence of them being only 2K strong or that the Wolf Brothers were set up as a Codex Chapter.

I do not think that it is reasonable to assume that when the background describes how the Space Wolves were divided into two Chapetrs that neither the Space Wolves nor the Wolf Brother are meant to actually be Chapters.

How we can deduct that the Space Wolves Legion was only about 2k strong I have outlined above.

[Grey Mage]

It has NEVER been suggested that the founding of the Wolf Brothers was any more than a standard second founding chapter (which, per the Codex, would be 1k marines). I dont know why people keep saying "oh, well you have one 2nd founding, so that cut you in half". Oh really? did every 2nd founding go 50% of the original?

(paraphrased) "The Space Wolves had never been a large Legion, so they were only divided once."

2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves (translated back into english)

 

"The existing Space Marine Legions were divided into new Chapters, one Chapter keeping the name and colours of the original Legion, while the remaining Chapters would take new titles and colours. Most of the old Legions divided into fewer than five Chapters, (the Space Wolves divided into only two) but the Ultramarines were divided many times."

Index Astartes, Codex Astartes

 

As far as the background we do have is concerned, the Space Wolves Legion was divided into the Space Wolves Chapter and the Wolf Brothers Chapter during the 2nd Founding. The 2nd Edition Codex explained this with the small number of Space Wolves.

Edit: So what we can deduct from that is that before the 2nd founding, the Space Wolves Legion did not have much more than 2000 Marines.

 

 

False Logic Legatus- that only one second founding was made doesnt not mean that only one second founding could be made. The Salamanders were in far worse shape than the wolves after the heresy as an example. Its entirely possible that there were 5k of SWs left after the heresy, and with around a thousand making the first of several potential second founding chapters.

 

The splitting of chapters and the inception of the codex astartes were not simultaneous, or were all chapters split off at the same time. For example we know from the IF IA article that the Ultramarines were already a chapter by the time that the imperial fists launched their ill fated assault on the iron warriors, wich was before they had split into the Crimson and Imperial Fists or the Black Templars.

 

Please also note that there a couple of different number sets for legion size- for instance some sources claim ultramarines at 25-30k marines, others are about a quarter of a million marines during the great crusade. Most of the other chapters were *in both sets* about 80% of their strength, with the salamanders and wolves being around 60-50% of the ultras size. It is unlikely if we use the ultrmarine numbers of 250,000 marines that the space wolves numbered merely 2,000 at the end of the heresy.

[Legatus]

False Logic Legatus- that only one second founding was made doesnt not mean that only one second founding could be made.

Your statement is technically true. That would not be the neccessary conclusion of that premise. But the background does not state that they "produced" or "split up" one successor Chapter. It states that the Space Wolves were divided into two Chapters. (for example in the Index Astartes: Codex Astartes)

 

The Salamanders were in far worse shape than the wolves after the heresy as an example.

Which is why they were not split at all. And we know that they are not still a full Legion.

 

It is unlikely if we use the ultrmarine numbers of 250,000 marines that the space wolves numbered merely 2,000 at the end of the heresy.

Regardless of how many members the Ultramarines might have had, we do know that at the time of the founding they had about 24,000 men. (all going by the simplified "1000" chapters of course). If the Ultramarines were reduced from 250k to 24k at that time, even without fighting in the heresy, then it is entirely reasonable that the Space Wolves would in turn have been reduced from 100k to 2k Marines.

[Vash113]

That doesn't make any sense Legatus. You are making some rather extreme assumptions based off of... well nothing. You assume the Space Wolves broke into Chapters of 1000. You assume the Space Wolves only broke off the Wolf Brothers because they could not divide into anymore than one Chapter. Those alone are some pretty significant assumptions to make that are unsupported by the Space Wolves fluff.

 

We know for a fact that the Space Wolves, according to the 5th Edition C:SM never accepted the Codex and owe nothing to it at all. The breakup of the Chapters and the dictate on size are both tenets of the Codex.

 

We also don't know much of anything about the Wolf Brothers, who are supposedly a 2nd founding successor, but we don't know that for certain. The oldest Codex in existence is the Apocrypha of Skaros, an origional copy no longer exists in the background, or an origional list of successors for that matter, we don't know how many successors there truly were, we don't even know who all the Ultramarines successors were. Given those sizeable discrepancies what reason is there to logically assume that the information on the Wolf Brothers is correct? We don't actually know what is the story with the Wolf Brothers. The origional fluff indicates that the Wolf Brothers were nothing more than a failed experiment. The first of potential successor Chapters that proved disasterous and negated the creation of any more. Certainly there's no indication that the Space Wolves could only break into two chapters.

 

So in the end I don't see anything that supports your assumptions Legatus.

 

I think the problem stems from this:

 

I just like to object to very liberal interpretations on how big a great company might possibly be.

 

You object to "liberal interpretations" and yet your objections are against conservative estimations, we aren't saying the Space Wolves are still at Legion Size, that is just rediculous. The general held estimates range at anywhere from 100-300 Marines per Company. Even if all 12 Companies are at 300 that's still 3600 Marines, maybe upwards of 4000-4500 with ancillary support and headquarters which is still barely more than half the size of the Black Templars and certainly nowhere near the tens of thousands in a Legion.

 

So what liberal estimates do you really have a problem with? We already know from the fluff that the Space Wolves are supposed to be quite a bit larger than a Codex Chapter, and we know Codex Chapters can get well over 1000 marines, more like 1500 on average. Roughly two to three times that size is still not grossly huge for a completely non-codex chapter and that's at the absolute largest. On average the Wolves are probably little more than double a Codex Chapter in size which really isn't that bad and quite a conservative estimate of the Wolves strength.

 

You even complain and object to the simple system I and others use based off of the 20 Wolf Guard. Yes 20 is the max, but so are 100 Veterans in a Codex Chapter. We use the max for both numbers, 10% of the Chapters total should be Veterans. Which puts the Space Wolves at about 200 per Great Company, smack dab in between the previous 100-300 estimate. Which is a very reasonable estimate given that down to 100 would represent a Company at half strength or so after a long time in the field and with about 10 Wolf Guard. Or a Company could get upwards to 300 when you include Battle Leaders and get up to about 30 Wolf Guard and 300 or so in the Company which would be a Great Company freshly stocked with new recruits and swelled for an important campaign.

 

None of these estimates are "very liberal" and in fact your estimate earlier at what 130 is if anything bordering on Ultra conservative.

 

Your statement is technically true. That would not be the neccessary conclusion of that premise. But the background does not state that they "produced" or "split up" one successor Chapter. It states that the Space Wolves were divided into two Chapters. (for example in the Index Astartes: Codex Astartes)

 

Which proves nothing, "split into two Chapters" does not mean that only two Chapters were possible, it also does not mean that the Chapters were at the Codex dictated 1000 marines, in fact given what fluff we do have that is either outrageously unlikely to downright impossible.

 

Regardless of how many members the Ultramarines might have had, we do know that at the time of the founding they had about 24,000 men. (all going by the simplified "1000" chapters of course). If the Ultramarines were reduced from 250k to 24k at that time, even without fighting in the heresy, then it is entirely reasonable that the Space Wolves would in turn have been reduced from 100k to 2k Marines.

 

So the Ultras wen't down to 10% starting strength but the Space Wolves went down to 2%... that doesn't make much sense. Besides the more recent HH material suggests that the Legions were tens of thousands strong not hundreds. Even so, the Space Wolves did not suffer any massive disasters and cassualty rates like some other Legions. Even if they started with a relatively small 10-15K Legion, there's no reason they couldn't have wound up with 5-6K left, split off 1-2K and still been left with a far larger than Codex Chapter.

 

In any case we've been down this road many times before, and you've never succeeded in proving anything, so why are we doing this again when there is really nothing new to say?

[Legatus]

In any case we've been down this road many times before, and you've never succeeded in proving anything, so why are we doing this again when there is really nothing new to say?

I certainly can cite the same evidence I have used before and several times in this thread already.

 

That doesn't make any sense Legatus. You are making some rather extreme assumptions based off of... well nothing. You assume the Space Wolves broke into Chapters of 1000. You assume the Space Wolves only broke off the Wolf Brothers because they could not divide into anymore than one Chapter. Those alone are some pretty significant assumptions to make that are unsupported by the Space Wolves fluff.

 

"Where the old Legions were unlimited in size, the new formations were fixed at approximately one thousand fighting warriors. This corresponded to the existing unit called the Chapter, and in the future the Chapter was recognised as the standard autonomous Space marine formation. No longer would one man have power over a force as powerful as a Space Marine Legion.

The existing Space Marine Legions were were divided into new Chapters, one Chapter keeping the name and colours of the original Legion, while the remaining Chapters would take new titles and colours. Most of the old Legions divided into fewer than five Chapters, (the Space Wolves divided into only two) but the Ultramarines were divided many times."

Index Astartes 1, page 12, "The Codex Astartes"

 

So my "assumption" pretty much is that the term "Chapter" refers to the same thing in the end of that description as it does in the beginning of that description. That is not really a far fetched assumption. Your assumption on the other hand is that the term in the end doea NOT mean what had been established in the beginning, and that the Space Wolves Chapter is not actually a Chapter.

 

We know for a fact that the Space Wolves, according to the 5th Edition C:SM never accepted the Codex and owe nothing to it at all.

We knew that since 2nd Edition, and it is repeated in the very same Index Astartes article I quoted above. The Space Wolves's reluctance to organise their Chapter according to Codex guidelines does not in any way change the fact that they were reformed into a Chapter.

 

We also don't know much of anything about the Wolf Brothers

We have 4 editions of Space Marine codices that list the Wolf Brothers as the Space Wolves successor Chapter. There is supposedly a WD article on them that further describes their background, but I do not have that. Perhaps the next Codex will have some new information. Until then I will refer to the Codex material we have.

 

Certainly there's no indication that the Space Wolves could only break into two chapters.

Well there is the Index Astartes. And the 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves.

 

So in the end I don't see anything that supports your assumptions Legatus.

No, you appearently don't. I will just keep citing the sources anyway.

 

we aren't saying the Space Wolves are still at Legion Size

No, to be fair, you are not. But one of the arguments put forward in this thread I was objecting against was that the Space Wolves were not reformed into a proper "Chapter" and kept a large number of 2000-3000 men during the 2nd founding. Basically keeping the (at the time limited in numbers) Legion formation.

 

The general held estimates range at anywhere from 100-300 Marines per Company.

And I am putting forward arguments for the numbers being more in the lower regions.

 

So what liberal estimates do you really have a problem with?

Mostly the arguments that are presented. Aside from the "they did not really split up" argument there is the argument from Epic Space Marine, where a great company card with all available support cards and all support cards spent for additional infantry is presented as a guide for an average great company.

 

You even complain and object to the simple system I and others use based off of the 20 Wolf Guard. Yes 20 is the max, but so are 100 Veterans in a Codex Chapter.

But they are not. 100 veterans is not the maximum amount of Veterans a Chapter could have. It is the set size for a Veteran Company a Chapter tries to maintain. 20 is not the set size for a Wolf Guard a Great Company tries to maintain. they have a varying number of Wolf Guard, as many as they happen to have.

 

We use the max for both numbers, 10% of the Chapters total should be Veterans. Which puts the Space Wolves at about 200 per Great Company, smack dab in between the previous 100-300 estimate.

Now, that method is valid. I approved of it the last time we had this discussion. Back then it was simply the premise of 20 Wolf Guard per average company I objected to. This time it was mainly the way how you took the number of individual Wolf Guard models and related that to the number of "units" in a great company. IIRC last time you also added Wolf Scouts on top of the "90%" of non-Wolf Guard, even though in a Codex Chapter the scouts would be part of that 90%.

It is a method I can work with, but you were making a few decisions I disagreed with.

(Edit: I am sorry if I am confusing you with Grey Mage now. I am not sure who came up with that system last time.)

 

Which proves nothing, "split into two Chapters" does not mean that only two Chapters were possible

... It does mean that after the split there were two Chapters.

 

it also does not mean that the Chapters were at the Codex dictated 1000 marines

The same texts (used in some of the Space Marines Codices and the Index Astartes) describe how after the heresy it was the goal to reform all Legions into smaller Chapters of approximately 1000 warriors. The leap of faith I am taking is that when the same text later describes that the Space Wolves were divided into two Chapters, it is refering to the same thing. I could accept that they maybe had a few hundred more. I would question the split into a 3000 men "Chapter" though.

 

So the Ultras wen't down to 10% starting strength but the Space Wolves went down to 2%... that doesn't make much sense. Besides the more recent HH material suggests that the Legions were tens of thousands strong not hundreds. Even so, the Space Wolves did not suffer any massive disasters and cassualty rates like some other Legions. Even if they started with a relatively small 10-15K Legion, there's no reason they couldn't have wound up with 5-6K left, split off 1-2K and still been left with a far larger than Codex Chapter.

I personally am still assuming that an average Legion was about 10k string, while the Ultramarines were 25k string, simply because that makse more sense in light of the 2nd founding. My comclusion that the Space Wolves were only at about 2000 during the time of the 2nd founding is based in the number of Chapters they were divided into, but perhaps if you consider these points it can make a bit more sense to you:

 

- The Ultramarines were producing lots and lots of recruits at the time of the scouring, and the background suggests that they were growing in numbers at the time, untill they made up more than half of the active Marine forces.

 

- The Space Wolves were attacking the Thousand Sons homeworld. And while I do think that the Space Wolves would come out on top in a battle bewteen the two Chapters, that would probably have left its mark.

 

- The Chapters that had been decimated on Istvaan V were probably using the time to rebuild their ranks, while the Space Wolves I assume were heavily involved in chasing the traitors into the eye of terror. I could see the Space Wolves being more agressive in their pursuit (we are talking a 20 year campaign here, and not a race to the eye), and were perhaps putting recruitment at a lower priority at that time. I do not want to imply that the Wolves are reckless, they are nothing if not professionals, but I could see them rather pressing the advantage and attacking traitors where they find them over sending great companies home for reinforcements.

 

As I said, I think the Space Wolves were so limited in numbers because they only divided into two Chapters, not because of those points. But perhaps taking those into account makes it plausible why the Space Wolves would not have a large Legion at the time of the 2nd founding.

[Grey Mage]

Are the Black Templars a Chapter Legatus? What about the Crimson Fists?

[Legatus]

I have no doubt that the Black Templars started out as a "Chapter" during the 2nd founding, as did the Crimson Fists.

 

The term has since become synonimous for any kind of Space Marine formation, but the goal during the 2nd founding was not to coin a new term for Space Marine formations, but to divide the Legions into smaller formations of a certain size. I.e., the mandate was not that the Legion would have to refer to itself as a "Chapter" from now on, it was that the Legion should divide its forces into smaller fractions of about 1000 battle brothers.

[Grey Mage]

I have no doubt that the Black Templars started out as a "Chapter" during the 2nd founding, as did the Crimson Fists.

 

The term has since become synonimous for any kind of Space Marine formation, but the goal during the 2nd founding was not to coin a new term for Space Marine formations, but to divide the Legions into smaller formations of a certain size. I.e., the mandate was not that the Legion would have to refer to itself as a "Chapter" from now on, it was that the Legion should divide its forces into smaller fractions of about 1000 battle brothers.

Give me a quote- because as far as I can tell all they did was decree that the legions would be splitting up into chapters. The Codex Astartes claims a chapter to be 1000 strong, but as weve already established this is rarely 100% accurate. Now, considering that fact I would argue that the likelyhood of their being exactly 3,000 imperial fists after their fight with the iron warriors is so low as to be irrelevant. Id continue that to say that the chances of all the legions save the Salamanders being wittled down to multiples of 1,000, exactly, to be even more so.

 

We know russ was around for several centuries after the heresy, and we know that the legions didnt all split at a single moment. There was no great big "ok you on the right go paint your armor green and yellow, you just to their right...." but that this process, like all processes, took time.

 

Is it so hard to think perchance that Leman Russ who is known for his obstinancy and unorthodoxy was dragging his heels as hard as he reasonably could on the splitting of his men-at-arms? That his production of a second founding chapter, known for its high concentration of wulfen, might have been a very grudging step towards his brothers idea?

 

That, perchance over the course of those several centuries *remember russ was the last primarch to dissapear* Russ failed to finish the job. That he in fact outlasted guilleman on this problem and didnt split his legion down completely? Its entirely in his character to do so and makes alot more sense in world than Leman suddenly having an epiphany and becoming a codex adherent primarch.

[Legatus]

Give me a quote- because as far as I can tell all they did was decree that the legions would be splitting up into chapters.

"Where the old Legions were unlimited in size, the new formations were fixed at approximately one thousand fighting warriors. This corresponded to the existing unit called the Chapter, and in the future the Chapter was recognised as the standard autonomous Space marine formation."

Index Astartes, Codex Astartes

 

The Codex Astartes claims a chapter to be 1000 strong, but as weve already established this is rarely 100% accurate. Now, considering that fact I would argue that the likelyhood of their being exactly 3,000 imperial fists after their fight with the iron warriors is so low as to be irrelevant. Id continue that to say that the chances of all the legions save the Salamanders being wittled down to multiples of 1,000, exactly, to be even more so.

I would assume that "understrength" Chapters were possible, and they would have tried to reach "full strength" later. The Salamanders probably had less than 1000, as they have less now. If the Imperial Fists had only 2,400 men, they could have formed three Chapters with a slightly understrength size of 800 each. Or they formed the Black Templars and the Crimson Fists at a strength of 1000 while keeping 400 for the Imperial Fists Chapter. The background describes that immediately after teh founding the Imperial Fists Chapter retreated for several years from active duty to fully adopt the Codex Astartes doctrines while the other successors went out to fight. They could have used that time to reach full Chapter Strength as well.

I could see the Space Wolves having slightly more than 2,000 Marines and creating two Chapters that are slightly bigger than the 1,000 (which is not strictly enforced at all times, as some sources explain, some Chapters can have slightly more members in times of great struggle) for being the mavericks they are. However, if they would have had around 3,000 or more members left, they would have been expected to form more than two Chapters.

 

We know russ was around for several centuries after the heresy, and we know that the legions didnt all split at a single moment. There was no great big "ok you on the right go paint your armor green and yellow, you just to their right...." but that this process, like all processes, took time.

As far as I know, after the 20 year scourging process and the dispute over the acceptance of the Codex there was an official "second founding", and at that point all Legions had finally been divided into Chapters. The Ultramarines were probbaly one of the first Legions to split up, but I see no reason to believe that at that time after the scourging and the dispute there were any Legions left that had not split up.

 

Is it so hard to think perchance that Leman Russ who is known for his obstinancy and unorthodoxy was dragging his heels as hard as he reasonably could on the splitting of his men-at-arms?

On the other hand Russ is not known for underhanded political delay tactics to get around an agreement he has supposedly made.

Russ may not have liked it, but on the other hand Dorn is described as much more reluctant. I see no reason to doubt that once Russ had begrudgingly agreed to divide his Legion he fully complied with it. Of course that does not mean that he would have Guilliman tell him how he was supposed to lead his new Chapter.

[Bran Scalphunter]

Legatus, you're using the IA on the Codex Astartes, which was never accepted by the Wolves. Your argument that the CA's rules applying to the Wolves doesn't work. Guilliman said Chapters were 1000 strong. Russ said "Sod you you blue git!". One Successor was made. It didn't work. After that, no more splitting of the Legion was done.

 

Perhaps it would be better if all GW fluff pertaining to the Space Wolves named them as a Legion instead of Chapter, seeing as the Chapter is a unit from the Codex Astartes. Heh, the Ultramarines Chapter v. the Space Wolves Legion. Which sounds cooler?

[Grey Mage]

So your quote tells us that they were split into chapters.... wich are normally are 1k marines in size. Weve already determined that just because some chapters are that size doesnt mean they all are. Try again?

 

And in a galaxy where communication can literally take decades to reach one end of the empire to the other and there are space marine chapters who have fallen through the cracks and simply dont exist as far as other segmentums are concerned you believe that the exact number of space wolves would have been known to guilleman?

 

Indeed, the idea that the Wolf Brothers were actually a seperate chapter is itself circumspect, as there is some fluff from the EOT campaign, and little before, that seems to state the Wolf Brothers were actually the 13nth company, sent off to persue enemies in the warp.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

So, in summary, most people are happy with Great Companies of up to 300, a few argue for 1000 and Legatus is content for his to have 130 odd marines.

 

Jolly good examples of how we are not a Codex Astartes chapter methinks :)

[eyeslikethunder]

So your quote tells us that they were split into chapters.... wich are normally are 1k marines in size. Weve already determined that just because some chapters are that size doesnt mean they all are. Try again?

 

 

Exactly also we have quote saying they changed after this

"like other chapters the space wolves were re-organised after the horus heresy according to the Codex astartes. However their primarch Leman russ was never convential and the chapter soon adapted to suit its leaders fierce warrior mentality. The Space Wolves Chapter is divided into Twelve Great Companies"

 

But we are no longer organised by that codex astartes and do not have 1000 marines made up of 10 companies, tactical marines and the like. So what we were like after the codex astartes reform is not relevant as we changed to our current structure after that.

 

The 4th SM codex even states that the codex astartes is not enforced and black templars prove it.

.

Also Armies of the imperium is the book that invents Great Companies as we had a totally different structure in rogue trader. So what it states their size to be is relevant. Plus its remains the only stated size every given.

[Legatus]

Legatus, you're using the IA on the Codex Astartes, which was never accepted by the Wolves. Your argument that the CA's rules applying to the Wolves doesn't work.

*sigh* That was only the first half of the quote I had already given in the post #66 above.

 

"Where the old Legions were unlimited in size, the new formations were fixed at approximately one thousand fighting warriors. This corresponded to the existing unit called the Chapter, and in the future the Chapter was recognised as the standard autonomous Space marine formation. No longer would one man have power over a force as powerful as a Space Marine Legion.

The existing Space Marine Legions were were divided into new Chapters, one Chapter keeping the name and colours of the original Legion, while the remaining Chapters would take new titles and colours. Most of the old Legions divided into fewer than five Chapters, (the Space Wolves divided into only two) but the Ultramarines were divided many times."

Index Astartes 1, page 12, "The Codex Astartes"

 

So, yes, that applies specifically to Space Wolves as well.

 

So your quote tells us that they were split into chapters.... wich are normally are 1k marines in size. Weve already determined that just because some chapters are that size doesnt mean they all are. Try again?

Er, no, the quote tells us they were split into 1000 strong fractions, which happened to fit with the known "Chapter" formation that was then used as the new standard Space Marine formation. It is as I said, which you demanded a quote for, the goal was not to simply organise the Legions into something new under a new title, the goal was to limit the size of Space Marine formations. Creating a "Chapter" with 3000-4000 Marines would have been completely missing the point.

 

And in a galaxy where communication can literally take decades to reach one end of the empire to the other and there are space marine chapters who have fallen through the cracks and simply dont exist as far as other segmentums are concerned you believe that the exact number of space wolves would have been known to guilleman?

I believe that when Russ agrees to comply with Imperial mandate that he will then honour that agreement.

 

there is some fluff from the EOT campaign, and little before, that seems to state the Wolf Brothers were actually the 13nth company

The Index Astartes for the 13th Company points out the similarity between the stories about the 13th Company chasing the traitors into the eye of terror and the Wolf Brothers chasing Dark Eldar into one of their webway portals, but while that story is written from an "it's so old, so no one can really tell" perspective, it does suggest that the Wolf Brothers were not related to the 13th Company and were actually a successor Chapter.

 

 

Edit: It just occured to me how awesome the concept is that Abaddon is relentlessly hunted within the eye of terror by loyalist werewolf Marines. Almost makes me want to start a Wulfen force in addition to my Space Wolves force. But I am waiting to see what the new Codex will bring. Actually I hope it will NOT contain any rules for the 13th company, as I was very disappointed when GW decided to take them out of the realm of myths and legends and bring them into the game.