Great Company?

[eyeslikethunder]

I believe that when Russ agrees to comply with Imperial mandate that he will then honour that agreement.

 

 

Err a quick look at the Army list tells us he did not keep to the Codex Astartes or feel bound by it

even your figures would be a breach of it.

 

 

Yes the 13th are very cool and hopefully will be in the new list in some form.

[Warhorse47]

Legatus, I have been watching this for the last couple of days, and I am sorry my friend, but you appear to want others to accept your thoughts and ideas on this but you seem to refuse to allow that others have as good a reason for their estimates as you. It is a shame, your ideas are well thought out, but your denial of others to possibly be correct, leaves me saddened as when you now appear, it causes folks to groan. This is a shame as your reasons are well presented,so please start allowing others the same courtesy you are entitled to.

[Legatus]

Err a quick look at the Army list tells us he did not keep to the Codex Astartes or feel bound by it

even your figures would be a breach of it.

Further study of the 2nd founding and the implementation of the Codex Astartes would reveal that the most important elements which all had to comply with were the limitation of size and the new and more controlled recruitment methods. The tactical doctrines, organisation and uniform markings, which may well be seen as Guillimans main body of work, were not the issue of the dispute between the Primarchs, and those guidlines have never been enforced by the Administratum.

 

Warhorse: I mainly enjoy objecting to odd interpretations of sources such as the claims that the Space Wolves did not split up into Chapters and that an epic great company would be best represented by taking all possible support cards and spending them all on additional infantry instead of support vehicles. I usually do back that up with fluff, though that somehow often is not noted or accepted.

Also, I am currently trying to distract myself from packing all my stuff into boxes and move to a different city.

[Erazoender]

The reason the Wolves were not split down was not because of their size; it was because of their unstable gene seed.

[eyeslikethunder]

Err a quick look at the Army list tells us he did not keep to the Codex Astartes or feel bound by it

even your figures would be a breach of it.

Further study of the 2nd founding and the implementation of the Codex Astartes would reveal that the most important elements which all had to comply with were the limitation of size and the new and more controlled recruitment methods. The tactical doctrines, organisation and uniform markings, which may well be seen as Guillimans main body of work, were not the issue of the dispute between the Primarchs, and those guidlines have never been enforced by the Administratum.

 

Warhorse: I mainly enjoy objecting to odd interpretations of sources such as the claims that the Space Wolves did not split up into Chapters and that an epic great company would be best represented by taking all possible support cards and spending them all on additional infantry instead of support vehicles.

 

Actually you argued with my suggestion of using 2-3 of 5 slots to include 1 long fang and 1-2 blood claw units. and your fluff arguments tended to be irrelevant for the reasons i pointed out

[Legatus]

Russ agreed to divide the Legion, and he did. Russ did not agree to use the tactical doctrines and organisational structure reccomended in the Codex. That was not expected of him.

 

And I put forward the argument that the first support, if any at all, an epic great company should get to represent an average great company would have to be heavy vehicles. The basic great company comes with a lot of infantry and transports, but it lacks heavy support vehicles. But those vehicles are part of a great company too, instead of being part of an armoury.

[Grey Mage]

So, if the tactical doctrines arent included then why should the number of troops be?

 

I know you say that 1k marines were the heart of the idea, but Id argue that simply splitting the legions and turning them into "chapters" is the heart of it.

 

And that is what Russ did- he split his legion, once, and called both parts chapters.

 

We have no evidence to show that he made it 1000 strong on each side, even approximately. We have only educated guesses- and we happen to disagree on those.

[Legatus]

So, if the tactical doctrines arent included then why should the number of troops be?

 

I know you say that 1k marines were the heart of the idea, but Id argue that simply splitting the legions and turning them into "chapters" is the heart of it.

Guilliman had been working on the Codex Astartes before the heresy, and he included the best tactical doctrines from other gifted primarchs such as Perturabos knowledge about siege techniques. But the two elements that are presented in all accounts about the Codex Astartes as the most cruicial are the division into smaller fractions and the new and controlled method for recruitment (see current Codex Space Marines, page 7)*. Both these elements were included as a result of the heresy and it stands to reason that they were not originally planned by Guilliman when he began his work on the Codex during the great crusade. While these two elements of the Codex Astartes are described in great detail in the sources, the tactical doctrines and chapter structure is only briefly mentioned at the end of the description.

 

The section about the Codex Astartes in the current Codex Space Marines* describes the three elements as follows:

 

Division into Chapters: "For all its multitudinous topics, the most and lasting contentious decree of the Codex Astartes was that the existing Space Marine Legions be broken up into smaller organisations known as Chapters."

 

New recruitment method: "One of the key objectives of the new Codex Astartes was to recognise and expunge these genetic weaknesses. The Codex decreed that Space Marines would be created and trained slowly."

 

Doctrines/Organisation: "The Codex further defines the tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings of the Space Marines. These guidelines have been much modified over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the 41st Millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history. "

 

 

The splitting up and the new recruitment process were not just ideas Guilliman has had and thought they would be of benefit, they were seen as neccessities to expunge the flaw of the accelerated gene growth and training that had been used during the great crusade and to make sure that no such terrible heresy could happen again.

The sources further describe in the section about how rigidly or divergently some Chapter follow the Codex organisation and tactical doctrines that the Adeptus Terra has never felt in necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely and would probably not even be able to (see current Codex Space Marines, page 9)*. And honestly, the idea that someone supervises the Chapters and makes sure they only use Codex approved tactics is ridiculous. Whether a chapter is organised or fights according to Codex guidelines cannot be enforced.

On the other hand the Index Astartes Imperial Fists or Index Astartes Black Templars describe that the dispute about the Codex was specifically because neither Dorn nor Russ wanted to have their Legions divided. That they were required to organise their forces according to the Codex and use only Codex approved tactics, or that they were against such a requirement, are not mentioned. The Index Astartes Black Templars also mentions that the changes into smaller fractions affected all imperial forces, not just the Space Marines, but for them the rules wer laid down in the Codex Astartes.

 

*The account given in the current Codex Space Marines is almost identical with the accounts from the Codex Ultramarines and the Index Astartes.

 

 

 

So I hope you will agree that there is a fundamental difference between the tactical and organisational guidelines of the Codex Astartes and the decrees that were included as a result of the heresy, and that it is absolutely reasonable that the Space Wolves abided by those decrees while dismissing the guidelines.

 

 

A brief summary about the important points:

 

- Guilliman orginally had only worked on a compilation of "guidelines" for all tactical, organisational, and other aspects of Space Marines, but as a result of the heresy "decrees" about Marine faction sizes and training methods were included.

 

- The decree to divide the forces and limit a single persons power was applying to all imperial forces, and for Space Marines that decree was laid down in the Codex Astartes.

 

- Adherence to the tactical and organisational guidelines has never been enforced by the Adeptus terra.

 

- The dispute during the 2nd founding was specifically because Dorn and Russ did not want to have their Legions divided.

[Florida Gator]

@legatus:

It seems you're arguing... just to argue... :) citing the same resources again and AGAIN... mind you these are resources that don't completely apply to the space wolves. I don't even feel the need to explain WHY either, because my brothers have been telling you WHY for the last three pages or so. You just need to actually read everything it's saying. Sometimes i'm the same way, trust me. whenever i would get into an argument as a kid, my dad always told me to LISTEN instead of thinking about what you're going to say next. In your case... it seems you are copying and pasting without reading the other members' responses. I seriously think this topic should be closed because it's becoming a place for an argument, rather than an answer to the question. I think the topic starter got the reasonable answer he was looking for, but you wanted to disagree. Sure, 1000 marines in each company IS unreasonable. But NOBODY was saying that the space wolves have 12,000 marines. I really fail to see the purpose in your argument, it almost seems like you don't even know anything about space wolves and why they need a seperate codex in the first place. And it's not because they're grey and have wolfy bits on them. In conclusion, I'm sorry for rambling on legatus, but I looked at this thread the day it started, watched it grow, but got so annoyed with this bickering and senseless assumptions that I couldn't stand to read it and just deleted my e-mails about topic replies! And I'm not the only one thinking this, you should Know that. Without further ado, i leave, and assume you will reply saying the same thing you've been saying for the last three pages.

 

Cheers

[Legatus]

Sometimes I like arguing. But hopefully you will find that I put in some effort to construct my arguments and go through the relevant sources, and am not simply trying to troll around. And once I have participated I find it very hard to stop to reply to assertions such as that the Space Wolves never split up or questions such as what the difference between the Codex tactical doctrines and the division into Chapters is. These details are not really described in the Codex Space Wolves or their Index Astartes, so I would perhaps not see that as basic knowledge, but there are sources on the matter.

I am curious what information the new Codex will have. Going from RT to 2nd, and then from 2nd to 3rd there allways have been a few changes to the Spacxe Wolves organisation, and I expect that to be no different this time.

[OnlyInDeath]

Again, this is the entire legion vs legatus. Just dont respond. Oh noes, Legatus will be left arguing against himself. Which is what he's doing already. Enough is enough brother. stop this thread. NOW. it really REALLY has debased itself into what every one else think and what Legatus thinks. IMO, what Legatus thinks is rather underthought and simply argumentative. Lets try to aspire to a real forum here and ban any response that would lead simply to opinionated aruguments (ie, anything Legatus says, barring anything ACTUALLY SUPPORTED).

[Grey Mage]

Legatus- It says in the Codex that SWs never accepted the Codex Astartes....

 

Thus wouldnt that mean we never agreed to it? And never would have been forced by oath to do anything?

[Wolfbrother Thrarne]

This thread should be closed on the grounds that GW cares less about the accuracy of thier fluff than Legatus. Seriously this is quite silly to be fighting over. GW constantly contradict themselves with each new edition and even from codex to codex in some instances.

 

We can all agree that the Space Wolves do not strictly adhere to the codex astartes and that each company has more marines than a normal one. /thread. :D

[Legatus]

Legatus- It says in the Codex that SWs never accepted the Codex Astartes....

See, how can I not respond to such assertions? I would disect the whole paragraph, but people here do not want me to, so I will just say that the whole paragraph is describing specifically Chapter organisation and Doctrines, and that the Space Wolves are refered to as a Chapter that does not follow those Codex patterns.

 

Ok, sorry, I understand the majority does not care for a continuation, but there are one or two who still seem to be in the mood for an argument. I will just go back to my kennel and wait for the new Codex.

[Kenmichi]

Back this up for a second.

 

The Black Templars Chapter is the largest space marine chapter in the Imperium. While Dorn did oppose the Codex Astartes like Russ did, Dorn did accept the decree at full strength and divided the Imperial Fists into the Crimson Fists and Black Templars. With the Fists already at low numbers it's reasonable to agree that the Black Templars started around 1000 marines, maybe a little less.

 

So what happened between the 31st millenia and the 42nd? Lots of recruiting, crusades, and general growth. Now, why couldn't the Wolves have just done the same damn thing? They participated in campaigns, crusades, and Fenris is a brutal and barbaric planet.

 

Personally I believe that Russ saw the creation of the Wolf Brothers as his compliance with Guilliman and his Codex Astartes. While being morally opposed to it, he only created a chapter of 1000 Wolf Brothers to satisfy Guilliman. Unfortunately the unstable gene seed of the Space Wolves ruined the Wolf Brothers and they disbanded. First off, no chance in hell that every single marine in the Wolf Brother's chapter turned Wulfen. Secondly, the Wolf Brothers were also based out of Fenris which means any marine in the Wolf Brothers Chapter isn't simply going to Marry Poppins out of Fenris. They're going to be absorbed back into the Space Wolves with Russ saying, "I told you so" to Guilliman.

 

Now why is that so unreasonable to believe? I know the same information anyone else knows. Since many different hypotheses stem from the same knowledge that should mean we're led to believe that the information wasn't accurately kept. The Ultramarines have much of their history documented and yet we know only a small handful of their successor chapters.

[Legatus]

They're going to be absorbed back into the Space Wolves with Russ saying, "I told you so" to Guilliman.

For the whereabout of the Wolf Brothers see this thread. Check the posts by "Inquisitor S." and "Rath". Their disappearance has been described in a WD short story and in the Index Astartes article about the 13th company.