Cerelius Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 My theory on the Grey Knights is that, yes they were orignally created from Garro and his companions, but unlike what others may think the Greys had the most Loyal of those that Turned from the Emperors gaze, with the Mandate to gather like minded men around them and to train them to counter Chaos (or Chas) as i like to call him a much more friendly name, but it was later deemed By Garro and those of the Inner Circle that having strong minds and Bodies just wouldn't work, but Pyskers against Chas would be a deadly, especailly if their psykers whom are prepared like the Greys are. Ponder this: Why are the Greys allow to do all the do even above the Inquisition. (yes I know their a Militant Arm, even the can judge a Inquisitor) Malcador was task with gathering men and women of strong Minds and Bodies to go where Non would dare, and these he brought before the Emperor before he went aboard the Venegeful Spirit, whose to say that one of those wasn't Garro Venerate The Lion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 But the Grey Knights have an innate psychic ability dont they? Something not displayed by Garro or his confederates. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2086436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerelius Posted August 22, 2009 Author Share Posted August 22, 2009 True Brother Captain, but if remember the Emperor didn't exactly say that you can't have psykers in your Legion only that the not use their powers, whgich is where Magnus cocked up. If Malcador was as good as they say he may have seen the benefits of having someone whom had seen Chaos and fought it first had as someone to train the first generation of the Grey Knights, before going out an finding those that have slight gift and then strenghening that. What say you Brothers Hallowed be then Lions Mane Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2086907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Yeah, but the bit about psykers not being trained, and told not to use their powers makes no sense whatsoever fluffwise, being that one of the main goals of the Emperor was the identification and training of all psykers, and his opinion that an untrained psyker is one of the most dangerous things for the Imperium. So why does he suddenly tell his most prized troops to simply ignore the massive danger amongst them, and just ignore the daemons trying to eat their brains? I stand by the fluff that makes sense fluff-wise, and actually doesn't contradict other parts of the Heresy fluff, that the Emperor outlawed Sorcery, but allowed Psykers. To have anything else makes no sense whatsoever given Imperial policy pre- and post-Heresy regarding psykers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2086951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rau le Creuset Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Most people seem to forget that the Grey Knights were the 666th chapter that was founded (Index Astartes) and so they're far younger than the Horus Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2087060 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Yeah, but the bit about psykers not being trained, and told not to use their powers makes no sense whatsoever fluffwise, being that one of the main goals of the Emperor was the identification and training of all psykers, and his opinion that an untrained psyker is one of the most dangerous things for the Imperium. So why does he suddenly tell his most prized troops to simply ignore the massive danger amongst them, and just ignore the daemons trying to eat their brains?I stand by the fluff that makes sense fluff-wise, and actually doesn't contradict other parts of the Heresy fluff, that the Emperor outlawed Sorcery, but allowed Psykers. To have anything else makes no sense whatsoever given Imperial policy pre- and post-Heresy regarding psykers. I don't think the Psykers were told not to use their powers. I feel thew they where brainwashed to not know they even had them. Repressed them in some way that was not permanent or unreversable. When the 8 astartes where brought before the Emp i believe he undid what was done to them thus unlocking powers. I don't think any of the known psykers in the legions went untrained. I just feel that training was done to them with out their knowing, Subconsciously via hypno-therapy. Repressing any thing is rarely ever 100% effective. Therefore I hold that these repressed psykers had access to some of their minor talents and this gave them a leg up on the rest. Theses men would have risen up the ranks to positions of power like captain. I have said many other places that i think Loken lives past Isstavan III. When trying to back up this idea i had to think of what he would do after and i thought Grey Knights. Then I had to answer the psyker question. I have found some places in the story that could have been psyker related but they can always be seen from a non psyker angle. When Loken and Lucius duel in the practice cage i see the use of precinence, others see Loken as a good street fighter. I took a step back and think i have seen something. After the council of Nikaea, Horus was still being a good Primarch and it appears that he complied with the edicts given there. There are no Luna Wolf librarians, unlike the 1k Sons and the Unforgiven. The Mournival was the advisory council, "their duties were to advise Horus in all aspects of warfare and diplomacy, to provide political posturing when he required it, to watch over the moral shape of the Legion and to guide its philosophy." "Each member was marked out by the bearing of a variation of the moon symbol, branded on the helm above the right eyepiece." "Garviel Loken states that it has existed since the earliest era of the Legion." I have come to think that this is what became of the Luna Wolf librarians. Furthermore Loken is the first non "Son of Horus" to be in the Mournival, the first non clone son. This means Horus was cooking up psykers in a lab at some point. Horus, a psyker himself and the Primarch of the Legion would know who these repressed psykers were and would most likely value their council. Most people seem to forget that the Grey Knights were the 666th chapter that was founded (Index Astartes) and so they're far younger than the Horus Heresy. Well there is no way that some 656 chapters where created in the second founding. The 666 is out side the normal chapter numbering designation IMO. Their inclusion in the second founding is itself a rumor anyway. If the Emperor created the chapter then he must have done so before he was put in the golden throne, as has been alluded to in the the collected visions. I hope we learn why they where given the number of the beast. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2087223 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 They were given the number because thats what they fight. In any case the psychic abilities are because of recruitment standards, not gene-seed IIRC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2087843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutteman Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 I'm was under the impression that psykers were born and not made, or the Emperor (with his goal of a total psyker race) would have attempted to create more psykers. The Grey Knights are all psykers because they won't take you unless you are a psyker. It is a matter of debate on if the Council of Nikae banned sorcery or psykers. Although False Gods suggests both, as Horus reacts in horror to Magnus using psyker powers (but refered to as sorcery? :P ) EDIT: After a check on 40K Wiki (note the source, may not be reliable) http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Nikaea Basically, the Emperor banned all SORCERY but all psykers would be trained and nutured. However this conflicts with the False Gods bit in which I'm sure Horus says how all librarian divisons throughout the legions were disbanded. Personally I side with the Sorcery not psykers as this makes more sense for the reasons Lord_Caerolion stated Anyway, you know my view on Loken, but we won't get off topic leading to another lockage. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2087916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 The original fluff was that the Council of Nikaea banned sorcery but authorised the use of Librarians, the revised fluff retconned it into banning it all - but GW have yet to explain why the ban was rescinded. As for Grey Knights the original fluff stated "By the Emperors instruction they were designated Chapter number 666" (although the original fluff also stated they were created in a secret founding shortly after the official Third Founding and then entered into the records as being Third Founding). For that matter the Mentor Legion were assigned the Chapter number 888 which had fallen vacant following the destruction of the Star Scorpions chapter which had previously held that designation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2087927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justicar Valius Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Most people seem to forget that the Grey Knights were the 666th chapter that was founded (Index Astartes) and so they're far younger than the Horus Heresy. WE are not the 666th chapter we are chapter NUMBER 666. It's like a social security number for chapters. it's also there just for the number of the beast thing as they fight daemons. in my opinion anyways! And we are pre 2nd founding post emperors confinement to golden throne. I personnaly belive all the chamber militants were founded by the 3 leaders on the eisenstein. the sister of silence founding the sisters of battle. Garro of the death guard forming the death watch. this leaves iacton qruze to found the grey kngihts and as are geneseed guy is unknown it could slot in. I don't belive in all the mumbo jumbo about our geneseed being directly from the Big E Did i mention iacton qruze was infact the only surviving loyalist luna wolf? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2092244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 snip Numerous things wrong with your post there, Walkier. 1: Librarians "have their powers locked away", yet can somehow still use them to go up the ranks quickly? It's all or nothing, you can't stop their powers, yet have them retain them where it's beneficial for your argument. Secondly, you can't stop a psyker being psychic. You can null them, but that's chemical treatment, or requires the presence of a nullifier item. And even so, leaving the slightest weakspot in a psykers mind is a means for a Daemon to get in, and start causing havoc. The only way to deal with psykers is either to train or kill them, there are no half-measures. 2: Why would the Emperor make the process reversable, if this is what he did? He placed a ban on psykers, apparently, that isn't something you later just say "my bad! Here's your powers back!" 3: The Mournival is stated to have existed from the beginning of the Legions foundation, true. However, there's nothing stating its structure changed post-Nikaea, and I highly doubt the Luna Wolves only had 4 Librarians before that. 4: Your "clone" theory is wrong, as the "Sons" are merely those that have a strong resemblance to Horus, which occured post-Marine-hood. They existed before they became Marines, its just that geneseed has a tendency to make the implantee resemble the Primarch. Abbadon is the only Marine rumoured to be a clone of Horus. 5: Horus has never been stated to be a Psyker himself. What psychic abilities he did have late in the Heresy have been stated to be powers granted by the Chaos Gods. Once more, you seem to be making massive leaps of logic to back up your weak argument. Every point you've made about Loken being a psyker, and being the first Grey Knight, requires massive logical jumps, and several non sequiturs. For example, how does the Mournival using moon-phase iconography back up them being Librarians, as you make out, when they're from a Legion which would most likely make heavy use of lunar symbols to begin with, being the Luna Wolves? And as a last piece of information for everybody, the Emperor stopped speaking a while after being interred on the Throne, not immediately. So the Grey Knights could have been created after the Heresy, during the Second Founding, so when Guilliman declares the Founding, the Emperor states that the Grey Knights be formed as well. Also, the Sisters of Silence can't be the first Adepta Sororitas, as those were formed during the Reign of Blood, from a warrior-group on the world San Leor called the Brides of the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2092291 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 snip Numerous things wrong with your post there, Walkier. 1: Librarians "have their powers locked away", yet can somehow still use them to go up the ranks quickly? It's all or nothing, you can't stop their powers, yet have them retain them where it's beneficial for your argument. Secondly, you can't stop a psyker being psychic. You can null them, but that's chemical treatment, or requires the presence of a nullifier item. And even so, leaving the slightest weakspot in a psykers mind is a means for a Daemon to get in, and start causing havoc. The only way to deal with psykers is either to train or kill them, there are no half-measures. "I have chosen these eight since allied to their unflinching loyalty they each are blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant in respect of your previous commands." is how Malcador put it. Clearly he is talking about psyker powers. I don't think each of them was fitted with a nullifier device, nor do i feel they were null'd as that sounds a bit final. There must have been a third option. If something is "dormant" it implies that it can be awoken. I don't think the psyker issue is so black and white, kill or train. Its just that the other choices are harder and would require more resources then the Emperor felt he could spend. Speaking of daemonic possession. There where some marines possessed in the HH novels. Don't you have to be a psyker to be possessed? 2: Why would the Emperor make the process reversable, if this is what he did? He placed a ban on psykers, apparently, that isn't something you later just say "my bad! Here's your powers back!" Maybe he made it reversible because he was unable to find a safe way to make it permanent, with out killing the psyker. Or maybe he looked into the future and saw the day he would need some psykers to fight on his side. 3: The Mournival is stated to have existed from the beginning of the Legions foundation, true. However, there's nothing stating its structure changed post-Nikaea, and I highly doubt the Luna Wolves only had 4 Librarians before that. I would agree that there were most likely more then 4 psykers in the Luna wolves prior to the council of Nikaea. However i dont think there were much more then 4 Chief Librarians. From Index Astartes I, pg 62. "The Chapter and its commanders rely heavily on the council of these most powerful of psykers and, acting within their role as advisors, the Librarians have countless centuries of experience at their disposal. Through a combination of wisdom and considerable psychic powers of premonition, the advice of Chief Librarians is greatly respected within the Chapter." From http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Mournival "The Mournival was the advisory council of four captains of the Luna Wolves legion, the authority of its members second only to Horus himself within the Legion. Even so, it carried no official weight, was considered to be outside the command structure and was a position purely internal to the legion." "Their duties were to advise Horus in all aspects of warfare and diplomacy, to provide political posturing when he required it, to watch over the moral shape of the Legion and to guide its philosophy." We know very little about what happened post-Nikaea but can you not see the similarities of theses two organizations? 4: Your "clone" theory is wrong, as the "Sons" are merely those that have a strong resemblance to Horus, which occured post-Marine-hood. They existed before they became Marines, its just that geneseed has a tendency to make the implantee resemble the Primarch. Abbadon is the only Marine rumoured to be a clone of Horus. What is the point of putting a false rumor into fiction? The only reason it was rumored is no one had the stones to confront Horus with the charge. This Rumor has been reprinted in many different editions of the Chaos SM fluff. Those who think Abaddon and the other "Sons" where not clones have their head in the sand. If you can agree that Abaddon was a clone "Son" of Horus, what about "little Horus"? Aximand likeness to Warmaster Horus was so striking that he was affectionately known as 'Little Horus' by his peers. If Abaddon was a clone then you cant argue Aximand was not, just because it dose not say so in the Codex? One is a coincidences, two is a trend. Where there is smoke there is fire. Horus was cloning as the rumors suggest and if they were also psykers as i propose, then he was doing something even more radical/ perverse. 5: Horus has never been stated to be a Psyker himself. What psychic abilities he did have late in the Heresy have been stated to be powers granted by the Chaos Gods. Some things are so obvious that they don't need to be spelled out. That the Primarchs where made from the flesh of the Emperor should be enough proof. The effect he had on those in his presense is anouther clue if it is realy needed. How about the Dream scene where he was lead by earabus and met Mangus the red as a wolf? Sure his powers where augmented by the Chaos Gods but i don't know where it was said that ALL of his powers where theses gifts. Once more, you seem to be making massive leaps of logic to back up your weak argument. Every point you've made about Loken being a psyker, and being the first Grey Knight, requires massive logical jumps, and several non sequiturs. For example, how does the Mournival using moon-phase iconography back up them being Librarians, as you make out, when they're from a Legion which would most likely make heavy use of lunar symbols to begin with, being the Luna Wolves? Viewing the phases of the moon as special or significant is Mysticism. Something explicitly frowned on by the Emperor and under the jurisdiction of the Librarians. Once again you choose to see this as just a coincidences and therefor insignificant. I see subtle foreshadowing and can not help but pull the thread to see what is unraveled. If you don't understand what I'm talking about here , instead of calling it a non sequiturs, why not just ask me what i meant? I'm sorry if my words are confusing. This is the way i think. I choose to write this way as a protest to what failed to learn is school. I do agree however that i do ask for leaps of logic but i do my best to give thought out reasons to make the landing as soft as possible. And as a last piece of information for everybody, the Emperor stopped speaking a while after being interred on the Throne, not immediately. So the Grey Knights could have been created after the Heresy, during the Second Founding, so when Guilliman declares the Founding, the Emperor states that the Grey Knights be formed as well.Also, the Sisters of Silence can't be the first Adepta Sororitas, as those were formed during the Reign of Blood, from a warrior-group on the world San Leor called the Brides of the Emperor. True the Emperor could have created the Grey Knights after he was in the Golden throne. But to me it is more likely done at the height of the siege of Terra. The scene in the Collected Visions with Malcador, the Emperor and the 12 men an women would seem to detail this. You are spot on about the SoB. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2092540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 "I have chosen these eight since allied to their unflinching loyalty they each are blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant in respect of your previous commands." is how Malcador put it. Clearly he is talking about psyker powers. I don't think each of them was fitted with a nullifier device, nor do i feel they were null'd as that sounds a bit final. There must have been a third option. If something is "dormant" it implies that it can be awoken. I don't think the psyker issue is so black and white, kill or train. Its just that the other choices are harder and would require more resources then the Emperor felt he could spend. Speaking of daemonic possession. There where some marines possessed in the HH novels. Don't you have to be a psyker to be possessed? Nope, you don't have to be psychic to be possessed. Being psychic just makes it a lot easier though. Even so, Jubal wasn't possessed in a psyker way. He was possessed because there was a Spirit in the region that was quite aggressive, and Jubal matched its personality pretty well. Also, if it were permanent, or actually nullified their abilities, why give the Chaplain Edict to monitor the psykers? Maybe he made it reversible because he was unable to find a safe way to make it permanent, with out killing the psyker. Or maybe he looked into the future and saw the day he would need some psykers to fight on his side. Then why not simply train them? I would agree that there were most likely more then 4 psykers in the Luna wolves prior to the council of Nikaea. However i dont think there were much more then 4 Chief Librarians. From Index Astartes I, pg 62. "The Chapter and its commanders rely heavily on the council of these most powerful of psykers and, acting within their role as advisors, the Librarians have countless centuries of experience at their disposal. Through a combination of wisdom and considerable psychic powers of premonition, the advice of Chief Librarians is greatly respected within the Chapter." From http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Mournival "The Mournival was the advisory council of four captains of the Luna Wolves legion, the authority of its members second only to Horus himself within the Legion. Even so, it carried no official weight, was considered to be outside the command structure and was a position purely internal to the legion." "Their duties were to advise Horus in all aspects of warfare and diplomacy, to provide political posturing when he required it, to watch over the moral shape of the Legion and to guide its philosophy." We know very little about what happened post-Nikaea but can you not see the similarities of theses two organizations? Actually, I see more similarities between the Mournival and the modern Chaplains. Librarians are mostly used for their psychic abilities, and as record-keepers. It's the Chaplains who have one of their primary duties as an advisory body, especially in the ways in which the Mournival advises. What is the point of putting a false rumor into fiction? The only reason it was rumored is no one had the stones to confront Horus with the charge. This Rumor has been reprinted in many different editions of the Chaos SM fluff. Those who think Abaddon and the other "Sons" where not clones have their head in the sand. If you can agree that Abaddon was a clone "Son" of Horus, what about "little Horus"? Aximand likeness to Warmaster Horus was so striking that he was affectionately known as 'Little Horus' by his peers. If Abaddon was a clone then you cant argue Aximand was not, just because it dose not say so in the Codex? One is a coincidences, two is a trend. Where there is smoke there is fire. Horus was cloning as the rumors suggest and if they were also psykers as i propose, then he was doing something even more radical/ perverse. I thought it had been stated to be false that Abaddon was actually a clone though? Also, as I've said, you haven't discounted the fact that those Marines didn't simply appear one day from nowhere, and also the fact that all geneseed gives the implantee a resemblance to the Primarch, some more so than others. So unless every Chapter is cloning, and was doing so as a Legion, Horus wasn't. Some things are so obvious that they don't need to be spelled out. That the Primarchs where made from the flesh of the Emperor should be enough proof. The effect he had on those in his presense is anouther clue if it is realy needed. How about the Dream scene where he was lead by earabus and met Mangus the red as a wolf? Sure his powers where augmented by the Chaos Gods but i don't know where it was said that ALL of his powers where theses gifts. Yes, but every Primarch embodied a different aspect of the Emperor, some of them non-psychic. As for the deam sequence, you do realise you don't have to be psychic to be affected by the Warp, don't you? Yes, Horus had a vision. However, he had said vision in an area where the barrier between the Materium and the Warp was weak, and was known to give people visions. Erebus and Magnus appearing was due to their own Sorcery, nothing to do with Horus. Viewing the phases of the moon as special or significant is Mysticism. Something explicitly frowned on by the Emperor and under the jurisdiction of the Librarians. Once again you choose to see this as just a coincidences and therefor insignificant. I see subtle foreshadowing and can not help but pull the thread to see what is unraveled. If you don't understand what I'm talking about here , instead of calling it a non sequiturs, why not just ask me what i meant? I'm sorry if my words are confusing. This is the way i think. I choose to write this way as a protest to what failed to learn is school. I do agree however that i do ask for leaps of logic but i do my best to give thought out reasons to make the landing as soft as possible. Just because something has a ritual meaning doesn't make it psychic. Hell, the swearing of pledges before battle is just as ritualised, but that doesn't mean anything. Mysticism doesn't mean anything there. We have a Legion who would use lots of lunar symbology on their heraldry, and surprise surprise, they have lunar symbology turn up in some heraldry. What the lunar phases represent is their status as an advisory body, each of them different from each other, but part of an inseperable whole, which can't exist with one missing. Still, symbols represent stuff, so I guess every Marine with heraldry, or with a Company Standard, all of which use symbology, are actually psychic. I call them non sequiturs not because I don't understand them, but because there are other, more fitting, explanations, which you choose to ignore to further your own point. Using meaningful symbols does not mean the organisation is psychic, it means they use symbology. You, however, think differently, because somehow symbology means you have to be a Librarian. You choose to take the smallest, mundane facts, and twist them to make them point to psychic ability. Loken winning a fight against a by-the-books, arrogant, aristocratic duellist does not make him psychic, it means he can tell what someone won't be expecting in a fight. The Mournival being an advisory body does not in any way mean they're psychic, it just means they advise Horus. Sure, leaps of logic can work sometimes, but where it falls down is when your entire argument is based on them. Your entire argument here depends on various points being true, all of them requiring leaps of logic when other answers are much, much more likely. I mean, a single leap makes for a plausible argument, but basically every point? 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Tutteman Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 On the psyker to be possessed, Loken states he thought this to be true to horus when Horus is explaining what happened to Jubal. And horus corrects him. A non Sequiturs is not something someone doesn't understand, its something that gets brought up with no warning and no apparent link to what proceded it. The idea behind the mournival is that they each represent a different aspect of the legion via the theory of humours. "Torgaddon represents the sanguine, Abaddon the choleric, Aximand the melancholic and Loken the phlegmatic." Taken from the same source you quoted. They are there to provide horus with council each from differing viewpoints so that hopefully horus would never be surrounded by syncophants all saying the same thing, what he wants them to. Dorn asks Loken to keep horus honest as Sigismund and the other IF captain did. So Dorn had a similar body in his legion. Edit: Just collected As in Eng lit AND Lang and still didn't proof read correctly :) :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2092988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerelius Posted August 30, 2009 Author Share Posted August 30, 2009 Lets keep things civil my Brothers, we are of course not like those that dwell in the eye, most of your views have merit but lets stay on tpoic please, For the Lion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2094708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamafore Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I thought all the primarchs were psykers, it was stated that was how the Emperor found them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2095523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Vesica Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 But the Grey Knights have an innate psychic ability dont they? Something not displayed by Garro or his confederates. Could have been a trait that appeared later on in the Chapters history? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2109628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigger-than-Jesus Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 The 8 marines were latent psykers right? The only marine I can think of as maybe having that talent was Garro as IIRC he heard keeler just before she arrived on the Eisenstein. @vesica-The Grey knights only ever recruit psykers, so it has nothing to do with geneseed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2109794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I thought all the primarchs were psykers, it was stated that was how the Emperor found them. Nope, never been stated that all Primarchs are psykers, although Magnus was found by communicating psychicly with the Emperor, but he seems to be the only one. For example, Night Haunter was discovered by using the Imperial Tarot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2109796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I thought all the primarchs were psykers, it was stated that was how the Emperor found them. Nope, never been stated that all Primarchs are psykers, although Magnus was found by communicating psychicly with the Emperor, but he seems to be the only one. For example, Night Haunter was discovered by using the Imperial Tarot. Wrong. Page 94 Collected visions. "....And ordered that the Primarchs themselves not indulge their undoubted psychic talents." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2110175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 That doesn't give an indication of number though, merely that he told Primarchs not to use their psychic powers. We know for a fact that Russ and Mortarion both loathed and despised psykers, something I can't see happening if they were psychic themselves. The only ones we have confirmation for are Magnus, Sanguinius, Night Haunter and (I think) the Lion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2110725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 That doesn't give an indication of number though, merely that he told Primarchs not to use their psychic powers. We know for a fact that Russ and Mortarion both loathed and despised psykers, something I can't see happening if they were psychic themselves.The only ones we have confirmation for are Magnus, Sanguinius, Night Haunter and (I think) the Lion. So the effect Horus and most, if not all Primarchs had on others who laid eyes on them, was just people being "Star Struck?" Do You really require it being written in a book to think that the Sons of the Emperor could be Truly Powerful Psykers themselves? the Emperor used his own DNA! Seems to me it should be the other way around. I would think that their Psyker nature would have to be a given. Just because they were themselves psykers dose not mean they had fond feelings for their own kind. I think their upbringing would have more impact on their thoughts on the matter. You are right it dose not Say in my quote the number but what is the point of making a blanket statement like that if it only applies to a small fraction of the group it is dirested at? I think it is much more likely that a large % if not all had clear powers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2110752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutteman Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Okay, something to point out, I rather doubt that Horus was cloning people on mass scale. If you implant a load of organs designed to implement changes on the scale of the SM implants and all these are from one guy, the gene pool is limited. I look like my dad, but I'm not a CLONE of him, Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus are not clones of Horus and neither have I seen any proof to this effect nor do I think it's likely. On this basis I think it totally irrelevent whether Horus was a psyker or not. As far as I can tell no one other than the Old Ones were able to implant psyker genes or whatever it is that make them tick, and to get Loken or any other mournival member he would have been doing it at a time when he trusted the emperor and would have shared news of this brilliant sucess, and then it would have been put into wider use if I have read the Emperor's plans right. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2111415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castlerook Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Does anyone even know a thing about genetics and genetic engineering? The Emperor used samples of his own DNA, yes, but does that mean he used his own DNA for the express purpose of making psychic super human warriors? No. With genetic engineering the first and most important step is identifying the desirable genes you want to use. In the case of the Primarchs, the main desirable genes would have been those governing strength, adaptability, intelligence, resistance to disease, self healing. In no way would psychic abilities be a desirable gene to have, especially when there are daemonic creatures capable of possessing psykers far easily then blunts. Remember, most if not all the traits possessed by a Primarch were passed onto their respective legion, so imagine entire legions capable of being possessed by daemons because they were psykers. Has that happened? Go on, find an entire legion, from the 18 known, which was possessed by daemons, I'll wait here. The Emperor used his own DNA, but would have had to use female DNA as well, simply put for those who have never done biology, mitochondrion, the power plant of the cell, is only ever inherited from the mother's line, male DNA simply cannot produce it, in fact there are several traits which can only ever be inherited from the mother, as the male's Y chromosome is incapable of providing the infomation needed. Each parent also provides alleles for a given trait, think of it as dark hair or blue eyes. Some traits can be predicted quite easily, hair colour for example, we know that a dark haired parent and a fair haired parent have a 25% chance of producing a child with fair hair. But that doesn't mean that if they have 4 kids one will automatically be fair haired, it just means that theres a chance for each one. The Emperor's psychic abilities were probably a recessive trait and an unpredictable one to measure at that. Doing the math it would still probably be a 25% chance that each Primarch would inherit their father's psychic abilities, but it also means theres a 75% chance they won't get it, but seeing how its unpredictable those chances could severly change (after all, siblings might share the same source DNA, but it doesn't mean their DNA is exactly the same). The proof is in the Primarchs, each had similar traits, strong in body, intelligent, adaptable (especially given some of the worlds they landed on), but there were also minor traits which made them different, hair (or lack of), eye colour etc. The major differences were results of mutations in the Primarchs DNA, for example, Sanguinius' wings, we know the Emperor didn't have wings. Russ' teeth, well unless the Emperor was a werewolf thats another mutation. Magnus' skin was probably his sole mutation, his psychic abilities most likely inherited from the Emperor, and unless theres concrete proof there were other psychic Primarch, Magnus was the only one. Anyway moving on. The Sister of Silence from the Eisenstein did not found the Sisters of Battle, they were from a small insignifcant backwater calling themselves the Brides of the Emperor, discovered by Goge Vandire, who made them his personal bodyguard. They turned against him around the end of the Age of Apotasy and executed him. With the end of the Age of Apotasy the military power of the Ecclesiarchy was severly reduced, so they could have "no men under arms", to get around this the Brides of the Emperor were renamed the Adepta Sororitas, their militant branch known by many as the Sisters of Battle. And the Grey Knights weren't the 666th Chapter Founded, its just an indication of what their supposed to fight, the Daemonic. Actually the Grey Knights were either founded during the Heresy or right after it, during the Second Founding. The geneseed of the Grey Knights is also the purest of all the Chapters, even purer then that of the Ultramarines. I doubt Garro or any other Eisenstein survivors provided the geneseed for this new chapter, mainly because they were all from Legions which had just recently been defeated in an Imperium wide war and all the Geneseed from the traitors is under a stasis time lock. Theres one source of pure geneseed, and I mean truly pure, that could be used as the basis of the Grey Knights, and its sitting in the Gold Throne. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2111933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerelius Posted September 15, 2009 Author Share Posted September 15, 2009 Thank you Brother Anarnaxe Some one whom has though about the original question and come up with a positive idea. True there is only one source of Pure genetic material from which the Greys could have come from, and also true contrary to what many of my bretheren think the Grey Knights where created in the or after the Heresy, Chapters are give a number not based on the time or when they where created or you would have some really rather random chapter numbers give that some records are lost or chapters that are not heard from for centuries, thought of as dead and then suddenly turn up again due to the vagries of the Warp. However i still suspect that Garro and maybe a few where chosen to Lead the Grey Knights as they had fought the Deamon and had some inkling as to how to train the fledgling chapter to combat this menace. Come Brothers let us embrace the Lion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176385-my-idea-on-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2112439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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