My idea on the Grey Knights

[Castlerook]

Now, it is easy to imagine the survivors of the Eisenstein to have been selected to train the Grey Knights, of all the warriors in the Imperium these 60+ souls had faced the daemonic and survived, either by strength of body and mind or by belief in the Imperial Truth and ended up probably being the most experienced fighters the Imperium had, especially in the years after the Heresy where many worlds were still under the yoke of Chaos. The early Investigators (not Inquistion as they were formally created later) would probably travel to monastic worlds, "holy" worlds, meet with those who had faced the daemonic and learned the proper way to harden their spirits and how to banish the daemons. (Why am I seeing a kung-fu montage in my head as I write this?)

 

Garro and the likes probably had a hand in the formation of the Grey Knights, but it doesn't mean their geneseed was used at all. They probably defined the war-ethic the Grey Knights have, strength of the mind as well as the body, the abilty to refuse the Daemon and to beat it back, in fact all the abilites the Eisenstein survivors showed during their escape as detailed in the novel. They could probably been seen as like the First Captains in the Loyalists, with the Second Founding, these new Chapters would have been heavily influenced by their leaders, the former First Captains, you want examples read up on the Black Templars or the Sons of Orar about how much influence the early Chapter Masters had.

 

Garro might have been chosen to have been the Grand Master of the Grey Knights, then again he might not have been, if he had not, he probably served as inspiration for who ever did lead the first Grey Knights.

[Tutteman]

Does anyone even know a thing about genetics and genetic engineering?

The Emperor used samples of his own DNA, yes, but does that mean he used his own DNA for the express purpose of making psychic super human warriors? No.

 

With genetic engineering the first and most important step is identifying the desirable genes you want to use. In the case of the Primarchs, the main desirable genes would have been those governing strength, adaptability, intelligence, resistance to disease, self healing. In no way would psychic abilities be a desirable gene to have, especially when there are daemonic creatures capable of possessing psykers far easily then blunts. Remember, most if not all the traits possessed by a Primarch were passed onto their respective legion, so imagine entire legions capable of being possessed by daemons because they were psykers. Has that happened? Go on, find an entire legion, from the 18 known, which was possessed by daemons, I'll wait here.

 

The Emperor used his own DNA, but would have had to use female DNA as well, simply put for those who have never done biology, mitochondrion, the power plant of the cell, is only ever inherited from the mother's line, male DNA simply cannot produce it, in fact there are several traits which can only ever be inherited from the mother, as the male's Y chromosome is incapable of providing the infomation needed. Each parent also provides alleles for a given trait, think of it as dark hair or blue eyes. Some traits can be predicted quite easily, hair colour for example, we know that a dark haired parent and a fair haired parent have a 25% chance of producing a child with fair hair. But that doesn't mean that if they have 4 kids one will automatically be fair haired, it just means that theres a chance for each one.

 

The Emperor's psychic abilities were probably a recessive trait and an unpredictable one to measure at that. Doing the math it would still probably be a 25% chance that each Primarch would inherit their father's psychic abilities, but it also means theres a 75% chance they won't get it, but seeing how its unpredictable those chances could severly change (after all, siblings might share the same source DNA, but it doesn't mean their DNA is exactly the same). The proof is in the Primarchs, each had similar traits, strong in body, intelligent, adaptable (especially given some of the worlds they landed on), but there were also minor traits which made them different, hair (or lack of), eye colour etc. The major differences were results of mutations in the Primarchs DNA, for example, Sanguinius' wings, we know the Emperor didn't have wings. Russ' teeth, well unless the Emperor was a werewolf thats another mutation. Magnus' skin was probably his sole mutation, his psychic abilities most likely inherited from the Emperor, and unless theres concrete proof there were other psychic Primarch, Magnus was the only one.

 

Anyway moving on. The Sister of Silence from the Eisenstein did not found the Sisters of Battle, they were from a small insignifcant backwater calling themselves the Brides of the Emperor, discovered by Goge Vandire, who made them his personal bodyguard. They turned against him around the end of the Age of Apotasy and executed him. With the end of the Age of Apotasy the military power of the Ecclesiarchy was severly reduced, so they could have "no men under arms", to get around this the Brides of the Emperor were renamed the Adepta Sororitas, their militant branch known by many as the Sisters of Battle.

 

And the Grey Knights weren't the 666th Chapter Founded, its just an indication of what their supposed to fight, the Daemonic. Actually the Grey Knights were either founded during the Heresy or right after it, during the Second Founding. The geneseed of the Grey Knights is also the purest of all the Chapters, even purer then that of the Ultramarines. I doubt Garro or any other Eisenstein survivors provided the geneseed for this new chapter, mainly because they were all from Legions which had just recently been defeated in an Imperium wide war and all the Geneseed from the traitors is under a stasis time lock.

 

Theres one source of pure geneseed, and I mean truly pure, that could be used as the basis of the Grey Knights, and its sitting in the Gold Throne.

 

Thanks for the biology lesson :ermm: Very comprehensive and some of it I even understood :lol:

[odinswolf]

just a quick spanner in any arguement/theory to do with 40k in general..

 

over the last 20 years of 40k since rogue trader there have been many pens (authors,codexes,suppliments,novels) that added/ changed/ created fluff.

 

what might be a valid theory on the grey knights to one viewer may be nonsence to another.

 

I try to not take in any of the novels fluff. So going by codex imperialis (2nd edition) the GK's were the only chapter of the second founding (shrouded in secrecy) after the horus heresy (codex daemonhunters) their geneseed comes from the emperor (c dh) changed to "specifically engineered geneseed" in index astartes 2

 

thats about all I want to know about them because by the time GW release a new DH codex they will probably change it all again!

[Castlerook]

If I remember correctly, the IA article about the Grey Knights (which they shared with the Deathwatch) was printed before the Daemonhunters codex was released, so in that case, I take the most current information to be canon, the Codex. You are right about the novels though, they should never be considered reference material, thats the Codex's job.

The Emperor provided the geneseed for the Grey Knights (probably kept in storage since the Primarchs project....somehow I think biological samples were the Golden Throne Emperor would be a little......funky).

 

@Tutteman

Think thats comprehensive? You should have seen what I had to cut out before I posted it...If I kept the original stuff my post would have been nearly 3 times longer ;)

[Tutteman]

If I remember correctly, the IA article about the Grey Knights (which they shared with the Deathwatch) was printed before the Daemonhunters codex was released, so in that case, I take the most current information to the canon, the Codex. You are right about the novels though, they should never be considered reference material, thats the Codex's job.

The Emperor provided the geneseed for the Grey Knights (probably kept in storage since the Primarchs project....somehow I think biological samples were the Golden Throne Emperor would be a little......funky).

 

@Tutteman

Think thats comprehensive? You should have seen what I had to cut out before I posted it...If I kept the original stuff my post would have been nearly 3 times longer :P

 

Hey, it is for someone's whose biology experience is a GCSE ;) (although I have done a bit of background study) and I can imagine how much needed to be cut out. And frankly I'm glad you kept it down :)

[odinswolf]

If I remember correctly, the IA article about the Grey Knights (which they shared with the Deathwatch) was printed before the Daemonhunters codex was released

 

yup you're right :)

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

With genetic engineering the first and most important step is identifying the desirable genes you want to use. In the case of the Primarchs, the main desirable genes would have been those governing strength, adaptability, intelligence, resistance to disease, self healing. In no way would psychic abilities be a desirable gene to have, especially when there are daemonic creatures capable of possessing psykers far easily then blunts. Remember, most if not all the traits possessed by a Primarch were passed onto their respective legion, so imagine entire legions capable of being possessed by daemons because they were psykers. Has that happened? Go on, find an entire legion, from the 18 known, which was possessed by daemons, I'll wait here.

Well..... The Thousand Sons were a Legion capable of being possessed by daemons. They were all psykers before they were given geenseed though. I'm not sure if them being dust in their Armour suits counts as possession but its pretty close. I disagree with "no way would psychic abilities be a desirable gene to have." It might be dangerous yes but the Emperor clearly placed a high value on psykers. His right hand man Malcador is proof of this. The legions were allowed to have Liberians pre Nikaea and this was with the Emperors blessing. With out more information on what happened on Nikaea and why we cant know what the Emperor was thinking when he banned the use of psychic powers.

 

The Emperor used his own DNA, but would have had to use female DNA as well, simply put for those who have never done biology, mitochondrion, the power plant of the cell, is only ever inherited from the mother's line, male DNA simply cannot produce it, in fact there are several traits which can only ever be inherited from the mother, as the male's Y chromosome is incapable of providing the infomation needed. Each parent also provides alleles for a given trait, think of it as dark hair or blue eyes. Some traits can be predicted quite easily, hair colour for example, we know that a dark haired parent and a fair haired parent have a 25% chance of producing a child with fair hair. But that doesn't mean that if they have 4 kids one will automatically be fair haired, it just means that theres a chance for each one.

 

The Emperor's psychic abilities were probably a recessive trait and an unpredictable one to measure at that. Doing the math it would still probably be a 25% chance that each Primarch would inherit their father's psychic abilities, but it also means theres a 75% chance they won't get it, but seeing how its unpredictable those chances could severly change (after all, siblings might share the same source DNA, but it doesn't mean their DNA is exactly the same). The proof is in the Primarchs, each had similar traits, strong in body, intelligent, adaptable (especially given some of the worlds they landed on), but there were also minor traits which made them different, hair (or lack of), eye colour etc. The major differences were results of mutations in the Primarchs DNA, for example, Sanguinius' wings, we know the Emperor didn't have wings. Russ' teeth, well unless the Emperor was a werewolf thats another mutation. Magnus' skin was probably his sole mutation, his psychic abilities most likely inherited from the Emperor, and unless theres concrete proof there were other psychic Primarch, Magnus was the only one.

 

Ok Magnus had one eye in the middle of his head. I would say that was a bit more of a mutation then his skin color. Your information about how cloning works in the real world is great but 40k is not Science fact. What the Emperor was able to do in the far future is not bound by the laws or restraints we face now. I think the psyker gene probably works like the force gene in Star Wars. There was no need for the mother to have force powers when Aniken gave his powers to his Son and Daughter. It was all about blood lines.

[Castlerook]

First off, its a story, a science fiction story set in a dystopion future, the real world doesn't apply to it in any real way, I know that, and you know that.......But the very best stories are the ones with a degree of believability.

 

Like I said, I don't believe psychic abilities are a desirable trait to have, as the Emperor wanted the spread the Imperial Truth, as a means to stop the power of the Chaos Gods, thats all well and good, but imagine the Human mind in the Warp, Blunts, those without psychic abilities, appear as the barest spark in the Warp, a candle in the dark seen from several miles away. Psykers are huge neon signs 5 feet away saying "FREE LUNCH AND A CHANCE TO MESS UP THE REAL WORLD". Psykers are a doorway into the real world, and even with training, implantation, everything need to empower a psyker, they are extremely dangerous as it only takes one psyker to cause the downfall of a planet and spread the power of Chaos.

 

Psychic abilities are.... well.... no one really knows how they could be passed on, it could be like Carrie, the main character in the Stephan King novel where Carrie inherit hers from her father. Then again it could be like the Marvel mutants, a recessive gene activating due to some sort of increased emotional circumstances, or it could just be a random genetic fluke. But one thing is certain, its not in the geneseed of marines, psychic abilities are with someone from the instant their born in the 40K universe.

 

The Thousand Sons were not an entire legion of psykers, read the background, the "dusted" marines were those Legion-Brothers who had no psychic ability, and they were not possessed by daemons. Ahriman and his Coven cast a spell to stop the mutations ravaging the Legion, the spell stopped it, but not in the way wanted, the physical bodies of the Marines were turned to dust, locking their souls in the armour. The very small minority of the Legion that survived were those who did have psychic abilities, but that was because of their own genetic code, not because of the geneseed implanted in them. Read about how Librarians of any loyalist chapter are found during recruitment.

 

I always believed Magnus sacrificed his eye for the knowledge of the Warp, the same way Odin gave up his eye for knowledge in Norse Mythology. Now cyclopia is a birth defect, so if he was born with one eye, that was probably it, not a mutation. If both those theories are wrong fair enough, in that case he is a big red mutant with an eye in the centre of his head.

[Tutteman]

With genetic engineering the first and most important step is identifying the desirable genes you want to use. In the case of the Primarchs, the main desirable genes would have been those governing strength, adaptability, intelligence, resistance to disease, self healing. In no way would psychic abilities be a desirable gene to have, especially when there are daemonic creatures capable of possessing psykers far easily then blunts. Remember, most if not all the traits possessed by a Primarch were passed onto their respective legion, so imagine entire legions capable of being possessed by daemons because they were psykers. Has that happened? Go on, find an entire legion, from the 18 known, which was possessed by daemons, I'll wait here.

Well..... The Thousand Sons were a Legion capable of being possessed by daemons. They were all psykers before they were given geenseed though. I'm not sure if them being dust in their Armour suits counts as possession but its pretty close. I disagree with "no way would psychic abilities be a desirable gene to have." It might be dangerous yes but the Emperor clearly placed a high value on psykers. His right hand man Malcador is proof of this. The legions were allowed to have Liberians pre Nikaea and this was with the Emperors blessing. With out more information on what happened on Nikaea and why we cant know what the Emperor was thinking when he banned the use of psychic powers.

 

The Emperor used his own DNA, but would have had to use female DNA as well, simply put for those who have never done biology, mitochondrion, the power plant of the cell, is only ever inherited from the mother's line, male DNA simply cannot produce it, in fact there are several traits which can only ever be inherited from the mother, as the male's Y chromosome is incapable of providing the infomation needed. Each parent also provides alleles for a given trait, think of it as dark hair or blue eyes. Some traits can be predicted quite easily, hair colour for example, we know that a dark haired parent and a fair haired parent have a 25% chance of producing a child with fair hair. But that doesn't mean that if they have 4 kids one will automatically be fair haired, it just means that theres a chance for each one.

 

The Emperor's psychic abilities were probably a recessive trait and an unpredictable one to measure at that. Doing the math it would still probably be a 25% chance that each Primarch would inherit their father's psychic abilities, but it also means theres a 75% chance they won't get it, but seeing how its unpredictable those chances could severly change (after all, siblings might share the same source DNA, but it doesn't mean their DNA is exactly the same). The proof is in the Primarchs, each had similar traits, strong in body, intelligent, adaptable (especially given some of the worlds they landed on), but there were also minor traits which made them different, hair (or lack of), eye colour etc. The major differences were results of mutations in the Primarchs DNA, for example, Sanguinius' wings, we know the Emperor didn't have wings. Russ' teeth, well unless the Emperor was a werewolf thats another mutation. Magnus' skin was probably his sole mutation, his psychic abilities most likely inherited from the Emperor, and unless theres concrete proof there were other psychic Primarch, Magnus was the only one.

 

Ok Magnus had one eye in the middle of his head. I would say that was a bit more of a mutation then his skin color. Your information about how cloning works in the real world is great but 40k is not Science fact. What the Emperor was able to do in the far future is not bound by the laws or restraints we face now. I think the psyker gene probably works like the force gene in Star Wars. There was no need for the mother to have force powers when Aniken gave his powers to his Son and Daughter. It was all about blood lines.

 

And yet we have nothing better to judge this on, we cannot base our judgement on anything else really. I will state again, I see no reason to believe that there are any psykers being cloned anywhere, Grey Knights are only all psykers because they are recruited for this skill, not because this is engineered into them. Psykers are not made, only born.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Psychic abilities are.... well.... no one really knows how they could be passed on, it could be like Carrie, the main character in the Stephan King novel where Carrie inherit hers from her father. Then again it could be like the Marvel mutants, a recessive gene activating due to some sort of increased emotional circumstances, or it could just be a random genetic fluke. But one thing is certain, its not in the geneseed of marines, psychic abilities are with someone from the instant their born in the 40K universe.

 

The Thousand Sons were not an entire legion of psykers, read the background, the "dusted" marines were those Legion-Brothers who had no psychic ability, and they were not possessed by daemons. Ahriman and his Coven cast a spell to stop the mutations ravaging the Legion, the spell stopped it, but not in the way wanted, the physical bodies of the Marines were turned to dust, locking their souls in the armour. The very small minority of the Legion that survived were those who did have psychic abilities, but that was because of their own genetic code, not because of the geneseed implanted in them. Read about how Librarians of any loyalist chapter are found during recruitment.

Index Astartes III page 41, 1k Sons Origins:

"The discovery of their lost master could not have come sooner for the Thousand Sons. Formed from Magnus' own gene-seed, the Legion was disposed toward psychic mutation in disproportionate numbers, a circumstance the fledgling Imperium was ill equipped to handle."

"An entire Legion of potential mutants was seen as a dangerous development."

Page 46, Organization: "Before the Heresy, individual Thousand Sons Squads were not led by veteran sergeants but by those who showed the most psychic promise."

 

They were a described as a Legion of psykers /before/ they started recruiting from Prospero.

 

Index Astartes III page 40, 1k Sons Origins:

",the infant Mangus fell upon the remote colony world of Prospero. He could hardly have been more fortunate: a grotesque cyclopean mutant who might have been feared and shunned on any other wold came instead upon a hidden planet of kindred spirits: a commune of outcast human psykers."

 

It also says in the article not all in the legion were psykers but that it was made hard for them to advance up the command ladder. The "dusted" marines were also psykers, just not apart of the in the inner cabal of the mightiest sorcerers, led by Ahriman. Given that both the Gene-seed and the source of recruits were both psyker rich, I would say that the VAST majority of Thousand Sons were intact also psykers. I think the Thousand sons might have been the only Legion to have their psyker abilities come from their Gene-seed but the fact that they did means it can happen. It also means that you can "Make" a psyker. I am not saying that this is why the "sons" of Horus are psykers. Quite the opposite. I don't think Horus's Gene-seed gave these powers. But i do think Horus was envious and sought to increase the number of psykers in his legion. The result of this was his "sons". I don't think Horus would experiment with his Gene-seed either. It would have been to risky. Much safer to splice some of his own DNA into some embryos and then release them into the general population of Cthonia to fight their inevitable way to the top of the pile, to be then recruited into his Legion. I believe he did this in the thousands.

Another proof that psykers can be "made" is the existence of Navigators. The Navigator Gene was created by scientists in the dark age of technology. Since the Emperor was around then also i think he probably did it himself.

 

 

I always believed Magnus sacrificed his eye for the knowledge of the Warp, the same way Odin gave up his eye for knowledge in Norse Mythology. Now cyclopia is a birth defect, so if he was born with one eye, that was probably it, not a mutation. If both those theories are wrong fair enough, in that case he is a big red mutant with an eye in the centre of his head.

Mangus was a giant, red, grotesque, cyclopean mutant, psyker. I'm not really sure how that helps my argument but it is what it is.

 

And yet we have nothing better to judge this on, we cannot base our judgement on anything else really. I will state again, I see no reason to believe that there are any psykers being cloned anywhere, Grey Knights are only all psykers because they are recruited for this skill, not because this is engineered into them. Psykers are not made, only born.

The reason we are talking about Mangus is to prove that psykers can be made. Now that I have shown you this don't you think Horus might have given it a shot?

[Castlerook]

Index Astartes III page 41, 1k Sons Origins:

"The discovery of their lost master could not have come sooner for the Thousand Sons. Formed from Magnus' own gene-seed, the Legion was disposed toward psychic mutation in disproportionate numbers, a circumstance the fledgling Imperium was ill equipped to handle."

"An entire Legion of potential mutants was seen as a dangerous development."

Page 46, Organization: "Before the Heresy, individual Thousand Sons Squads were not led by veteran sergeants but by those who showed the most psychic promise."

 

They were a described as a Legion of psykers "before" they started recruiting from Prospero.

 

Index Astartes III page 40, 1k Sons Origins:

",the infant Mangus fell upon the remote colony world of Prospero. He could hardly have been more fortunate: a grotesque cyclopean mutant who might have been feared and shunned on any other wold came instead upon a hidden planet of kindred spirits: a commune of outcast human psykers."

.

 

Psykers are psykers from birth, it is the mutation of their DNA which makes them psykers. When the Primarchs were created, samples were taken at birth to help produce the legions, and when later reunited with their Primarchs, they were assigned by the the geneseed created from their sample. Its like when someone needs blood, if you give someone the wrong blood type, the body reacts and kills the person. So you match blood types. The Legions needed their Primarchs complete and intact geneseed to stablise their own. But, Magnus, being the most mutated, didn't really stabilise the Thousand Sons that much. Any psykers in the Legion got their abilites from Magnus' geneseed, which augmented any nascent abilities they from birth. People assume psykers to be the kind that can read minds, those with telekinesis, but the reality is, it would cover the whole spectrum of mental powers, from precognition (that sense of deja vú) to the full blown pyrotechnics that are the hallmark of Librarians.

 

Any recruits brought into the Legion after the discovery of Magnus and the reuniting, drew from the population of Prospero, a genepool that already had a strong pysker base. As more and more of the original Thousand Sons died, the replacements were brought in from Prospero, so each new recruit was already a potential psyker. Again, a psyker is a mutation from birth.

 

It also says in the article not all in the legion were psykers but that it was made hard for them to advance up the command ladder. The "dusted" marines were also psykers, just not apart of the in the inner cabal of the mightiest sorcerers, led by Ahriman. Given that both the Gene-seed and the source of recruits were both psyker rich, I would say that the VAST majority of Thousand Sons were intact also psykers. I think the Thousand sons might have been the only Legion to have their psyker abilities come from their Gene-seed but the fact that they did means it can happen. It also means that you can "Make" a psyker. I am not saying that this is why the "sons" of Horus are psykers. Quite the opposite. I don't think Horus's Gene-seed gave these powers. But i do think Horus was envious and sought to increase the number of psykers in his legion. The result of this was his "sons". I don't think Horus would experiment with his Gene-seed either. It would have been to risky. Much safer to splice some of his own DNA into some embryos and then release them into the general population of Cthonia to fight their inevitable way to the top of the pile, to be then recruited into his Legion. I believe he did this in the thousands.

Another proof that psykers can be "made" is the existence of Navigators. The Navigator Gene was created by scientists in the dark age of technology. Since the Emperor was around then also i think he probably did it himself.

 

First point, about how the "VAST majority" of the Thousand Sons were in fact psykers. 3.5 Chaos Codex, Ahriman's page (which is more recent then the IA article and therefore more up to date).

"Ahriman held the Rubric to be a success as the physical corruption had been halted even at a cost of changing most of the Legion to automata".

 

Next point, Navigators, while they have an artifically created gene, it was implanted into Psykers. Theres not much point in implanting a gene into a blunt because they'll never have the potential to use the Navigator gene. So, you had to put an artifical gene into NATUARALLY BORN PSYKERS. Normal psykers find it difficult to traverse the warp, so the Navigator gene was created to allow the selected psykers to "see" the warp and its eddies. The gene is also inbred into the Navigator families its almost natural now. Think of pedigree dogs, supposedly perfect specimens are in fact the result of several generations of inbreeding, so where one minor trait would have been lost by having an ancestor mate with a dog from another bloodline, the result of the same DNA being used is that minor trait has become a defining trait. If you don't believe me look at Bull Terriers now and compare it to the original species two hundred years ago. The point is, what was designed to be a somewhat minor trait in natural psykers has become a major trait in them. Normal psykers, and I use that term loosely, will generally look normal, a head, 2 arms, 2 legs, all connected to a torso, the head has a nose, 2 ears, a mouth and 2 eyes, the exceptions are the ones whose abilities are wildly out of control and possibly possessed by Chaos. Navigators have a single eye, called the warp eye. That was probably a minor trait which became more prominent through thousands of years of inbreeding amongst the Navis Nobilite. By the time of the Great Crusade has this artifical gene remained that, or has it mutated into something more organic?

 

Mangus was a giant, red, grotesque, cyclopean mutant, psyker. I'm not really sure how that helps my argument but it is what it is.

Yes, we know Magnus was a giant, red, grotesque and a psyker, but the eye is the key. Did he give it up for an increase in ability like Odin? Or was he born with it? Theres a major difference, if he was born with just one eye, then that might be a natural version of the Navigator gene manifesting, but if he wasn't then the eye is the price paid for sorcerous knowledge.

 

And yet we have nothing better to judge this on, we cannot base our judgement on anything else really. I will state again, I see no reason to believe that there are any psykers being cloned anywhere, Grey Knights are only all psykers because they are recruited for this skill, not because this is engineered into them. Psykers are not made, only born.

The reason we are talking about Mangus is to prove that psykers can be made. Now that I have shown you this don't you think Horus might have given it a shot?

Proven what? Most of your points are just saying that the Thousand Sons were pyskers, and that the ones who weren't got dusted. The fact is, in the 40K universe, psykers are a, rarish, mutation which is present from birth. Any attempts in genetic engineering are usually massive failures (The Legions and Primarchs, the 13th and 21st Foundings, the Afriel Strain Abhumans in the Imperial Guard, Fabius Bile's New Men are all prime examples), psykers are the result of a random combination of DNA, yeah its more likely if both parents have the ability, but its still a random occurance. Even if a psyker could be artifically created whats the guarentee it would succeed? Many things which occur naturally are impossible to create artificially and are never as good as what Nature created.

 

Your also ignoring one very important fact, Horus had more important things to do then spend time in a lab trying to make artifical psykers, like trying to conquer the galaxy for the Emperor, then for the Chaos Gods. Also by the time of the Great Crusade, the technology and knowledge for genetic engineering was but lost, you want proof? Look at the Emperor's finest, the Legions. At least a quarter of the Legions had heavily mutated Geneseed, only a small number of the Legions had completely stable/pure geneseed, the Dark Angels, Night Lords and Ultramarines having the best geneseed. The numbers say that the technology was far from perfect, try that with something as random as psykers and it wouldn't be worth it. Even then those most likely to succeed with the techology are dead, and have been for several millenia.

 

Psykers, in fluff terms, are freaks, the odds of a natural psyker being born are probably the same as getting struck by lightning several times. Seeing how there is a significant number of psykers in the Imperium, it would also seem some people are just magnets for lightning. What would be the point in trying to artifically make psykers when there are often whole shipfuls of psykers being transported around the galaxy, where worlds have large proportions of psykers? Its a matter of resources and sense, why put that effort into something that would;

( A ) offer very little in returns, how many thousands of failures for just one success? Thats even if they could do it! But hey, they can't.

( B ) be extremly dangerous, all those new, untrained minds offering access to the real world.

( C ) Even one psyker could prove to be the most dangerous, think the Cursed founding, one "superior" being that could become the most dangerous threat to the Imperium. The Imperium already has enough trouble as it is, why add it?

 

But back to the basic point, psykers are a naturally occuring phenomona, psykers are born psykers, therers no special treatment to a baby into a psyker at birth, their already psykers. The only way a psyker increases their ability is being trained to do so, either as a Space Marine, by the Inquisition, being bound to the Emperor and used in the Astronomicon. Simple as that.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Index Astartes III page 41, 1k Sons Origins:

"The discovery of their lost master could not have come sooner for the Thousand Sons. Formed from Magnus' own gene-seed, the Legion was disposed toward psychic mutation in disproportionate numbers, a circumstance the fledgling Imperium was ill equipped to handle."

"An entire Legion of potential mutants was seen as a dangerous development."

Page 46, Organization: "Before the Heresy, individual Thousand Sons Squads were not led by veteran sergeants but by those who showed the most psychic promise."

Index Astartes III page 40, 1k Sons Origins:

",the infant Mangus fell upon the remote colony world of Prospero. He could hardly have been more fortunate: a grotesque cyclopean mutant who might have been feared and shunned on any other wold came instead upon a hidden planet of kindred spirits: a commune of outcast human psykers."

 

Psykers are psykers from birth, it is the mutation of their DNA which makes them psykers. When the Primarchs were created, samples were taken at birth to help produce the legions, and when later reunited with their Primarchs, they were assigned by the the geneseed created from their sample. Its like when someone needs blood, if you give someone the wrong blood type, the body reacts and kills the person. So you match blood types. The Legions needed their Primarchs complete and intact geneseed to stablise their own. But, Magnus, being the most mutated, didn't really stabilise the Thousand Sons that much. Any psykers in the Legion got their abilites from Magnus' geneseed, which augmented any nascent abilities they from birth. People assume psykers to be the kind that can read minds, those with telekinesis, but the reality is, it would cover the whole spectrum of mental powers, from precognition (that sense of deja vú) to the full blown pyrotechnics that are the hallmark of Librarians.

Wrong. The Legions were given the Gene-seed BEFORE the Primarch were recovered. The Gene-seed was complete well before the Primarchs grew up on their distant worlds. The Astartes formed from the men of Earth with the Gene-seed of the primarchs were full fledged Marines. There was no second implantation post reunion. The Primarchs don't have Progenoid glands like the Astartes that were created from their Seed. There is nothing taken from the Primarchs after they hook back up with their legions. What Magnus did to stabilize his Legion is TRAIN them to controll their abilities. My first quote form the IA article spells this out. "Formed from Magnus' own gene-seed, the Legion was disposed toward psychic mutation in disproportionate numbers" The Astartes from the Thousand Sons began to show disproportionate psychic mutation After getting the Gene-seed but Before Magnus was found. They would not have had more psykers from birth, then the other Legions. I don't understand how this is not clear. The Gene-seed from Magnus was Mutating the men who received it into Psykers. This might go against what most would think about psykers but it shows that psykers can be made, overruling what their Birth DNA had in store for them.

 

Any recruits brought into the Legion after the discovery of Magnus and the reuniting, drew from the population of Prospero, a genepool that already had a strong pysker base. As more and more of the original Thousand Sons died, the replacements were brought in from Prospero, so each new recruit was already a potential psyker. Again, a psyker is a mutation from birth.

The people of Prospero had more then a "Strong" psyker base. The entire population was psykers. All of them. When implanted with Magnus's Seed their powers were amplified. This could only increase the % of psykers in the Legion to near 100%

 

First point, about how the "VAST majority" of the Thousand Sons were in fact psykers. 3.5 Chaos Codex, Ahriman's page (which is more recent then the IA article and therefore more up to date).

"Ahriman held the Rubric to be a success as the physical corruption had been halted even at a cost of changing most of the Legion to automata".

Correct. This means that since nearly 100% of the Legion Was Psykers that Most of, if not all of the "automata" where Psykers first. The Legion was suffering from continued Mutation due to exposer to the Warp. The Whole legion was allready Mutants, a gift from the Gene-seed of magnus. The warp took the gift and ran with it. Only the Most powerfull of the Sorcerors where able to hold off Further Mutation. In an effort to "save" the rest who did not have the Power or control of the inner Cabal they used the Spell that "dusted" the rest. All those of mid range psykers down were effected.

 

Next point, Navigators, while they have an artifically created gene, it was implanted into Psykers. Theres not much point in implanting a gene into a blunt because they'll never have the potential to use the Navigator gene. So, you had to put an artifical gene into NATUARALLY BORN PSYKERS. Normal psykers find it difficult to traverse the warp, so the Navigator gene was created to allow the selected psykers to "see" the warp and its eddies. The gene is also inbred into the Navigator families its almost natural now. Think of pedigree dogs, supposedly perfect specimens are in fact the result of several generations of inbreeding, so where one minor trait would have been lost by having an ancestor mate with a dog from another bloodline, the result of the same DNA being used is that minor trait has become a defining trait. If you don't believe me look at Bull Terriers now and compare it to the original species two hundred years ago. The point is, what was designed to be a somewhat minor trait in natural psykers has become a major trait in them. Normal psykers, and I use that term loosely, will generally look normal, a head, 2 arms, 2 legs, all connected to a torso, the head has a nose, 2 ears, a mouth and 2 eyes, the exceptions are the ones whose abilities are wildly out of control and possibly possessed by Chaos. Navigators have a single eye, called the warp eye. That was probably a minor trait which became more prominent through thousands of years of inbreeding amongst the Navis Nobilite. By the time of the Great Crusade has this artifical gene remained that, or has it mutated into something more organic?

Weather or not the Navigators where Psykers before getting the Artificial gene is unclear. This all happened during the Dark Age and their are no records. At best this is not a given. The only thing we know is that the Navigator Gene is artificial. Navigators don't have a Single eye, they have a third Eye. They are not Cyclops like Magnus.

Yes, we know Magnus was a giant, red, grotesque and a psyker, but the eye is the key. Did he give it up for an increase in ability like Odin? Or was he born with it? Theres a major difference, if he was born with just one eye, then that might be a natural version of the Navigator gene manifesting, but if he wasn't then the eye is the price paid for sorcerous knowledge.

Again my Quote form the IA article makes this Point Very Clear and was the reason i put it in my post.

",the infant Mangus fell upon the remote colony world of Prospero. He could hardly have been more fortunate: a grotesque cyclopean mutant who might have been feared and shunned on any other wold came instead upon a hidden planet of kindred spirits: a commune of outcast human psykers."

I don't think even a Primarch infant would have the ability to voluntarily give up anything much less his own eye. The 3 words, grotesque cyclopean mutant, to me leave no doubt about it. Also like I said Above. Mangus was not manifesting the navigator Gene. Navigators are not "cyclopean", they have 3 eyes.

 

Proven what? Most of your points are just saying that the Thousand Sons were pyskers, and that the ones who weren't got dusted. The fact is, in the 40K universe, psykers are a, rarish, mutation which is present from birth. Any attempts in genetic engineering are usually massive failures (The Legions and Primarchs, the 13th and 21st Foundings, the Afriel Strain Abhumans in the Imperial Guard, Fabius Bile's New Men are all prime examples), psykers are the result of a random combination of DNA, yeah its more likely if both parents have the ability, but its still a random occurance. Even if a psyker could be artifically created whats the guarentee it would succeed? Many things which occur naturally are impossible to create artificially and are never as good as what Nature created.

What i feel i proved is that the Thousand Sons Where nearly 100% Mutant Psykers. And that Most if not all of them were "dusted". I feel i proved that you can Make Psykers if you try real hard, as the Thousand Sons, pre reunification with Magnus/ Prospero, were not all born Psykers. The Gene seed Mutated them. Most Psykers are as you have said, just not All. The Legions and Primarchs are in no way "Massive Failures". They where almost perfect. Almost.

 

Your also ignoring one very important fact, Horus had more important things to do then spend time in a lab trying to make artifical psykers, like trying to conquer the galaxy for the Emperor, then for the Chaos Gods. Also by the time of the Great Crusade, the technology and knowledge for genetic engineering was but lost, you want proof? Look at the Emperor's finest, the Legions. At least a quarter of the Legions had heavily mutated Geneseed, only a small number of the Legions had completely stable/pure geneseed, the Dark Angels, Night Lords and Ultramarines having the best geneseed. The numbers say that the technology was far from perfect, try that with something as random as psykers and it wouldn't be worth it. Even then those most likely to succeed with the techology are dead, and have been for several millenia.

I agree that Horus would have had a lot on his plate but he was a smart guy, he could multitask. He also had a lot of time as he was the first found, and he spent many years as the only Son of the Emperor. He had plenty of time to dabble in cloning if he so choose. Hell, he might have even done this before he was found by the Emperor. We have little knowledge of what the culture of Cthonia was capable of. Maybe the planet had some kind of Cloning technology base. I'm not sure when it happened exactly but I think the "Sons" were among the first recruits from Cthonia. And it would be worth it if he could guarantee himself a loyal and steady steam of psykers to bolster the strength of his Legion. You take a lot of the random out of the equation if you use the same DNA, (Horus's) as a start for all of them. Maybe his goal was not to create psykers but to just get more of himself in the Legion. The end Result though would be the same.

 

Psykers, in fluff terms, are freaks, the odds of a natural psyker being born are probably the same as getting struck by lightning several times. Seeing how there is a significant number of psykers in the Imperium, it would also seem some people are just magnets for lightning. What would be the point in trying to artifically make psykers when there are often whole shipfuls of psykers being transported around the galaxy, where worlds have large proportions of psykers? Its a matter of resources and sense, why put that effort into something that would;

A) offer very little in returns, how many thousands of failures for just one success? Thats even if they could do it! But hey, they can't.

B ) be extremly dangerous, all those new, untrained minds offering access to the real world.

C) Even one psyker could prove to be the most dangerous, think the Cursed founding, one "superior" being that could become the most dangerous threat to the Imperium. The Imperium already has enough trouble as it is, why add it?

 

A) I don't think Horus would care about the %, only the number of success would matter. He was known for doing what ever it took to get the job done. By ANY means necessary. What dose it matter if he had millions of failures if he got thousands of success to fill his Legion?

B ) Danger would not have been a big hurdle for Horus. He was not afraid to take Risks. Also he had Librarians to train any who made it successfully into the Legion. They would not be hard to identify after all. they Looked Like Horus. He might have had a way to keep track of them also. Maybe plant them all with bar codes that could be monitored.

C) Yeh, i agree with you here.... Can you Say Abaddon?

 

But back to the basic point, psykers are a naturally occuring phenomona, psykers are born psykers, therers no special treatment to a baby into a psyker at birth, their already psykers. The only way a psyker increases their ability is being trained to do so, either as a Space Marine, by the Inquisition, being bound to the Emperor and used in the Astronomicon. Simple as that.

For the Most part i think you are right. However like most things it is not a good idea to say never or All. The Emperor was smart enough to break these natural restrictions. I don't know how he did it but the fact that the Thousand Sons developed Psychic mutations AFTER they got the Gene-seed of Magnus, proves that there is a possibility to "Make" a Psyker. All you need is a small crack to know the door can be kicked in. In sort, "Were there is a Will, there is a Way."

[Tutteman]

Any recruits brought into the Legion after the discovery of Magnus and the reuniting, drew from the population of Prospero, a genepool that already had a strong pysker base. As more and more of the original Thousand Sons died, the replacements were brought in from Prospero, so each new recruit was already a potential psyker. Again, a psyker is a mutation from birth.

The people of Prospero had more then a "Strong" psyker base. The entire population was psykers. All of them. When implanted with Magnus's Seed their powers were amplified. This could only increase the % of psykers in the Legion to near 100%

 

First point, about how the "VAST majority" of the Thousand Sons were in fact psykers. 3.5 Chaos Codex, Ahriman's page (which is more recent then the IA article and therefore more up to date).

"Ahriman held the Rubric to be a success as the physical corruption had been halted even at a cost of changing most of the Legion to automata".

Correct. This means that since nearly 100% of the Legion Was Psykers that Most of, if not all of the "automata" where Psykers first. The Legion was suffering from continued Mutation due to exposer to the Warp. The Whole legion was allready Mutants, a gift from the Gene-seed of magnus. The warp took the gift and ran with it. Only the Most powerfull of the Sorcerors where able to hold off Further Mutation. In an effort to "save" the rest who did not have the Power or control of the inner Cabal they used the Spell that "dusted" the rest. All those of mid range psykers down were effected.

 

So if the most psyker legion of them all was recruiting from a planet of 100% psykers...people born psykers...(oh and something about maths, if you have 100% (psyker recruits), and then it's still 100% (psyker marines)...thats an increase of...0%, in fact, if there is only CLOSE to 100% then thats actually a DECREASE, however I assume that the close to part accounts for the Terran Thousand Sons) :)

 

Anyway, something to point out would be that if magnus' gene seed boasted people's psyker abilities...surely this means that the "Sons" of Horus probably just got their looks from the seed of horus? and not horus doing some super secret project in his back yard shed that he hasn't even told his beloved father about?

[Castlerook]

Simple fact is, some people will argue just for arguements sake, to counter it just continues the circle of arguement and counter arguement, et nauseum, this be the interwebs after all. I've made my points and backed them up, so my job is done. I'm off to get a beer. And maybe play a little Fallout 3.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Anyway, something to point out would be that if magnus' gene seed boasted people's psyker abilities...surely this means that the "Sons" of Horus probably just got their looks from the seed of horus? and not horus doing some super secret project in his back yard shed that he hasn't even told his beloved father about?

Again sorry but i have to disagree. If Horus's Gene-seed was turning his Astartes some how to look like him, It would be a change seen across the board in some degree. Maybe some of his Legion would only look like him the slightly while others would look dead on. Only the "Sons" had any resemblance to Horus. The "Sons" as far as i can tell were not even the Majority of the Legion. My guess is only roughly 30%. Loken, The half heard and other "non Sons" did not in the slightest look like Horus. And there were no "Sons" in the marines that came before Horus was found. If it was an side effect of the Gene-seed it would have effected the ones that came BEFORE Horus was found, as well as all the ones who came after like Loken. But it dose not, why? That to me means that it had nothing to do with the Gene-seed at all. That is why talking about Mngus is so important. Mangus's Gene-seed caused ALL those to receive it to mutate to some degree. Some much more then others but mutation by definition is random. The Gene-seed of Russ makes ALL his sons to grow fangs. Corax....(bla bla bla this is the point i know people probably skip buy but what ever) If anyone could show me how my thinking is wrong on this bit it would go a long way to clearing up the whole matter. Simple... just find something written that says there where "Sons", before Horus was found. Or show that All the Astartes of the Luna Wolves looked like Horus at least a little bit. Some thing Legion wide as Gene-seed is the only thing they have in common other then being Human. Maybe even Show that some other Legion had a Gene-seed side effect that was not legion wide.

 

 

Simple fact is, some people will argue just for arguements sake, to counter it just continues the circle of arguement and counter arguement, et nauseum, this be the interwebs after all. I've made my points and backed them up, so my job is done. I'm off to get a beer. And maybe play a little Fallout 3.

Awww. I though we where just getting warmed up. You were getting to one of my main legs im standing on. Kick that out from under me and i fall down. If as you think, The Astartes did not get their "Compleet??" Gene-seed treatment until after their Primarch was found..... Then everything I'm trying to prove is blown away. That is my silver bullet. Shame i have to point that out but I'm not here to be right, or as you seem to feel, here to Argue. I'm here to try and discern the truth.

My argument has gotten bogged down in minutia but that's OK. If i can't be right down here maybe I'm wrong. This all started for me trying to Prove that Loken was going to be a founding Member of the Grey Knights. For that to happen he had to

a) live past Istavaan III. (Check, Oh and by the Way there were A LOT of you who thought he was dead. I always felt that his survival was the biggest hurdle to get over but there seems to be and endless supply of them. Its OK I'm Game. would be nice to begin to hear those who thought he was dead FOR SURE come out and admit they were wrong. Maybe even begin to help figure what will happen.)

b ) Make it back to earth (TBD)

c) Be a psyker (TBD)

....1)) If he was a psyker then his powers were not clear. I felt this was because all psykers had their powers "repressed" as a result of Nikaea. If he is a repressed psyker then he the Authors would have given subtle hints, foreshadowing.

.........Green))) I point to his fight with Lucius in the Practice cage.

...........Blue))) His inclusion in the Mournival. I see similarities with the Role the Libriaum played in Legions. The fact that he is the First "non son" made me think that if all the Mournival before him were all "Sons" then maybe that means that something about being a "son" make you more likely to be in the Mournival. If the Mournival were all repressed psykers like Loken then maybe all the Sons were repressed Psykers. This to me is more then a coincidence so i looked for a reason why all the Sons were psykers.

............... Alpha)))) The only thing ever even rumored to be true about a "Son" (Abaddon) Was a clone son Of Horus.

.................Beta)))) If that is true then Surely Lil Horus had to be a clone also.

................Gama)))) If They both were clones then there is a good chance that All the "Sons" are clones also.

 

....2)) If Horus was cloning psykers i had to prove that a psyker could be "made" in the first place. If psykers could not be "made" then Loken's inclusion in the Mournival would have to be based on something else then him being a psyker and my whole house of cards comes Crashing down.

.........Green))) But i think i have shown that Psykers can be made. We look to the effect Mangus's Gene-seed had on his Legion and i think it is clear.

...........Blue))) If the Gene-seed was not given to the Astartes until after the Primarch were found, EVERYTHING i have thought and posted about is completely worthless. I'm sure some of you feel that way already. It will be easy enough to win me over, just prove me wrong at any one theses points. Please use a Book reference or quote.

 

Edit: I wonder if there are any psykers in Fallout 3? I bet they were not born that way...... Enjoy the Brew. Ill drink a shot with ya tonight!

[Castlerook]

Well I know I'm going to regret this. But seeing you batter your own theory has given me a weird sense of delight, almost as much as shooting down every citizen of Megaton....if you ever met Moira there you'll know why.

 

First up, I never said the Legions got their completed geneseed from their Primarch, what I said was it stabilised their geneseed, DNA matures as the subject ages, so the sample taken as a baby would be slightly different to the mature Primarch, after all, the Primarchs have survived on dangerous planets without mutating into beasts. Look at the biggest example of this need for stabilisation, the Emperor's Children*. A major accident early in their creation left the Legion with about 200 warriors. Now the Legion could have been rebuilt....over time.... Time, a resource which really was lacking during the Great Crusade, the need for powerful warriors outweighing the need for caution. (I work for a small lab, in quality control, essentially my job is to make sure that everything tested/used conforms to set standards, and I can tell you this, take your time with whatever it is you do, rushing though a process is just a fast way to a whole lot of errors)

 

Imagine what could have happened if Fulgrim was never found and the Emperor rushed the rebuilding of the Emperor's Children, I'll give you a hint, the Raven Guard**, post Drop Pod Massacres. But, with the help of Fulgrim and his fully developed DNA, the Emperor's Children soon became a legion at full strength, the epitome of the perfection.

 

The previous example of the Raven Guard shows what happens when you rush the gene-process, insane, monstrous marines. You could argue thats because of their geneseed, seeing how Corax's wasn't the best, but its a prime example of why that saying "only fools rush in where angels fear to tread" has merit.

 

Using this idea with the Thousand Sons, yes a couple of holes can be seen in the theory that some didn't get psyhic powers while some got them if they had Magnus' geneseed, so think engines, lets say a car needs a new part, but the part is no longer made because the car is so old. If it can't be found you find a part thats compatible, its not perfect but it gets the job done (though not as well as the original part did). How does this apply to the Thousand Sons? Each one of them is a different engine part. Some of them will be more compatible with Magnus' geneseed then others, if they were born with powers Magnus' innate abilities would augment the original powers, if you multiply 1 and 1, you end with nothing. If the marine wasn't born with psyhic powers, then its one by nothing, which equals nothing, you can't augment whats not there.

 

I'm not going to get into the whole "Loken leading the Grey Knights" arguement, because unless I read differently, the last we saw of Loken he has trapped under several hundred tonnes of rubble, his armour was rent, he was mortally wounded and there was an orbital bombardment hitting the general area he was in, until that changes or is in print and on paper, thats where Loken is. Loken in the cage was an example of a smart fighter watching his sparring partner practise and watching his movements helpful link about how martial artists do it. Thats my view of it, plain and simple.

 

My only point about Horus is (and by extension Magnus), don't confuse sorcery with psychic abilities. Sorcerers are those who seek power and knowledge and while some psykers become sorcerers, not all sorcerers are psykers, Luther is proof of that, so is Horus. Both men were avatars of the Chaos Gods, funnels for their power, the Chaos Gods could use these men as organic guns of sorcerous power. It doesn't make them psykers though, it just made them puppets who sold their souls for power. In Horus' case, he was turned as he was dying on Davin, his body could fight back enough so that weakened his mind as well, it weakened enough so that the whispers of Chaos could get through and corrupt him. Any power he got weren't psychic, they were sorcerous, a gift from his new patrons. The same for Luther, he wasn't a psyker, he was a man "gifted" with sorcerous powers. Magnus is a psyker, but he also has a thirst for knowledge and has ended being both a Sorcerer and a Psyker.

 

(And yes, I know Chaos sorcerers are former Librarians/Legion counterparts, but there are plenty of tales in 40K where ordinary men sell their souls for power)

 

I'm not aiming to change anyone's version of 40K to my own, nor is anyone right or wrong on certain topics, just my viewpoint of a game whose background is at times vague, and often contradictionary. Wouldn't surprise me if in 10 years the details in the IA articles were changed completely.

 

*IA article for the Emperor's Children

**IA article for the Raven Guard

[Tutteman]

Anyway, something to point out would be that if magnus' gene seed boasted people's psyker abilities...surely this means that the "Sons" of Horus probably just got their looks from the seed of horus? and not horus doing some super secret project in his back yard shed that he hasn't even told his beloved father about?

Again sorry but i have to disagree. If Horus's Gene-seed was turning his Astartes some how to look like him, It would be a change seen across the board in some degree. Maybe some of his Legion would only look like him the slightly while others would look dead on. Only the "Sons" had any resemblance to Horus. The "Sons" as far as i can tell were not even the Majority of the Legion. My guess is only roughly 30%. Loken, The half heard and other "non Sons" did not in the slightest look like Horus. And there were no "Sons" in the marines that came before Horus was found. If it was an side effect of the Gene-seed it would have effected the ones that came BEFORE Horus was found, as well as all the ones who came after like Loken. But it dose not, why? That to me means that it had nothing to do with the Gene-seed at all. That is why talking about Mngus is so important. Mangus's Gene-seed caused ALL those to receive it to mutate to some degree. Some much more then others but mutation by definition is random. The Gene-seed of Russ makes ALL his sons to grow fangs. Corax....(bla bla bla this is the point i know people probably skip buy but what ever) If anyone could show me how my thinking is wrong on this bit it would go a long way to clearing up the whole matter. Simple... just find something written that says there where "Sons", before Horus was found. Or show that All the Astartes of the Luna Wolves looked like Horus at least a little bit. Some thing Legion wide as Gene-seed is the only thing they have in common other then being Human. Maybe even Show that some other Legion had a Gene-seed side effect that was not legion wide.

 

Question, it is relevant, was Horus found before his legion was created or was he gifted it like all other primarchs. Because Torgaddon, Aximand and Abaddon are all founder members of the mournival, all are sons so if they have all been part of the mournival since it's inception (apparently (Horus rising?) this has existed since the begining of the legion, is this right?).

Now I'm aware that Horus was the first found but if he had been altering these guys right under the emperor's nose...The thing is, even if you can prove psykers can be "made", you still need to show me how this applys to Loken and co.

 

Simple fact is, some people will argue just for arguements sake, to counter it just continues the circle of arguement and counter arguement, et nauseum, this be the interwebs after all. I've made my points and backed them up, so my job is done. I'm off to get a beer. And maybe play a little Fallout 3.

Awww. I though we where just getting warmed up. You were getting to one of my main legs im standing on. Kick that out from under me and i fall down. If as you think, The Astartes did not get their "Compleet??" Gene-seed treatment until after their Primarch was found..... Then everything I'm trying to prove is blown away. That is my silver bullet. Shame i have to point that out but I'm not here to be right, or as you seem to feel, here to Argue. I'm here to try and discern the truth.

My argument has gotten bogged down in minutia but that's OK. If i can't be right down here maybe I'm wrong. This all started for me trying to Prove that Loken was going to be a founding Member of the Grey Knights. For that to happen he had to

a) live past Istavaan III. (Check, Oh and by the Way there were A LOT of you who thought he was dead. I always felt that his survival was the biggest hurdle to get over but there seems to be and endless supply of them. Its OK I'm Game. would be nice to begin to hear those who thought he was dead FOR SURE come out and admit they were wrong. Maybe even begin to help figure what will happen.)

b ) Make it back to earth (TBD)

c) Be a psyker (TBD)

....1)) If he was a psyker then his powers were not clear. I felt this was because all psykers had their powers "repressed" as a result of Nikaea. If he is a repressed psyker then he the Authors would have given subtle hints, foreshadowing.

.........Green))) I point to his fight with Lucius in the Practice cage.

...........Blue))) His inclusion in the Mournival. I see similarities with the Role the Libriaum played in Legions. The fact that he is the First "non son" made me think that if all the Mournival before him were all "Sons" then maybe that means that something about being a "son" make you more likely to be in the Mournival. If the Mournival were all repressed psykers like Loken then maybe all the Sons were repressed Psykers. This to me is more then a coincidence so i looked for a reason why all the Sons were psykers.

............... Alpha)))) The only thing ever even rumored to be true about a "Son" (Abaddon) Was a clone son Of Horus.

.................Beta)))) If that is true then Surely Lil Horus had to be a clone also.

................Gama)))) If They both were clones then there is a good chance that All the "Sons" are clones also.

 

....2)) If Horus was cloning psykers i had to prove that a psyker could be "made" in the first place. If psykers could not be "made" then Loken's inclusion in the Mournival would have to be based on something else then him being a psyker and my whole house of cards comes Crashing down.

.........Green))) But i think i have shown that Psykers can be made. We look to the effect Mangus's Gene-seed had on his Legion and i think it is clear.

Sorry but isn't that the bit where you decided that it was magnus' gene seed that was making his legion psyker, despite the fact that apparently the entire population from which he was drawing recruits were psykers already...and anyway, you have shown that if they are implanted with the gene seed of THE most powerful primarch THEN they become psykers...you've proven nothing

...........Blue))) If the Gene-seed was not given to the Astartes until after the Primarch were found, EVERYTHING i have thought and posted about is completely worthless. I'm sure some of you feel that way already. It will be easy enough to win me over, just prove me wrong at any one theses points. Please use a Book reference or quote.

 

Edit: I wonder if there are any psykers in Fallout 3? I bet they were not born that way...... Enjoy the Brew. Ill drink a shot with ya tonight!

[Simonius]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think there is a possibility that all space marines and their Primarchs have an inate psychic ability - because of their descent from the big E, this inate ability comes from the gene seed. In the vast majority this is latent and will never materialise, for some it will. When a subject for recruitment is also psychic (latent or otherwise) the two come together and you get a definite librarian marine.

 

In one book - I think it's HH, but it might be a 40K one - somebody speaks to a marine about abilities/potential that are locked away in all marines, and it seems obvious that they are refering to psychic powers. Sorry I can't be more specific, but at work without references.

 

Now i think this could suggest that as part of their indoctrination (and I presume the big E designed the programme) these abilities/potential are deliberately made dormant - as said before nothing more dangerous than a loose untrained psyker. However some are too strong for this initial dormancy to hold - hence librarians. After Nikeaa, maybe the indoctrination programme was strengthened to supress potential even more.

 

The question is, could you use an ability you never knew you had? This could possibly make lots of HH marines, including Garro et al, potential psykers without them knowing or manifesting any power previously. It could also explain the potential seen in Loken's precognition, which is instinctive during a fight rather than a deliberate use of power - or he could just be very well trained!

 

As its a fictional story, set in a fictional universe, anthing could happen - you just have to find enough plausibility for the viable suspension of disbelief.

 

The Grey Knights could therefore - in plot logic - plausibly be founded by these marines who have had their dormancy unlocked and hence their ongoing psychic brand of warfare is enhanced by recruiting known psykers.

 

Equally - in plot logic - the Grey Knights could be founded by "normal" marines, and then just recruit psykers as they realise these are needed to fight the daemons.

[Cerelius]

My resaoning exactly Brother Simonius

[shamen]

I feel it nessessary to point something out, it is stated in most fluff that all terran marines had similar traits to there primarch but lesser than the marines recruited from there homeworld. this is due in part to the effect of the primarchs blood, dna or psychic powers on geneseed, e.g. it was stated that terran space wolfs had no fangs until they drank the fenris ale mixed with blood of leman russ, at the founding feast hence all future fenisian space wolfs have fangs. also blood angels never had completely working geneseed cos of the need for sanguinius' blood which couldnt be replicated, so when sanguinis was found all terran marines were give some of his blood to completely activate there geneseeds, hence the fact the present blood angels have sanguinary priests to preserve the blood of sanguinius.

 

And on a last note: you cant make psykers in a lab at will, all humans have psychic potential. you can unlock it in some people, but in others its never unlocked hence the fact that you can see none psykers in the warp as dull stars compared to the bright light of a psyker. Only Genuine Anti-Psykers have no psychic potential, and no corresponding star in the warp.

 

And that gentlemen of the Astartes is my most humble of opinions <_<

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I feel it nessessary to point something out, it is stated in most fluff that all terran marines had similar traits to there primarch but lesser than the marines recruited from there homeworld. this is due in part to the effect of the primarchs blood, dna or psychic powers on geneseed, e.g. it was stated that terran space wolfs had no fangs until they drank the fenris ale mixed with blood of leman russ, at the founding feast hence all future fenisian space wolfs have fangs. also blood angels never had completely working geneseed cos of the need for sanguinius' blood which couldnt be replicated, so when sanguinis was found all terran marines were give some of his blood to completely activate there geneseeds, hence the fact the present blood angels have sanguinary priests to preserve the blood of sanguinius.

 

And on a last note: you cant make psykers in a lab at will, all humans have psychic potential. you can unlock it in some people, but in others its never unlocked hence the fact that you can see none psykers in the warp as dull stars compared to the bright light of a psyker. Only Genuine Anti-Psykers have no psychic potential, and no corresponding star in the warp.

 

And that gentlemen of the Astartes is my most humble of opinions B)

 

 

Can you provide some references? Books and page? I have not read any of what you say. If this is true it would go a long way to clear up some things.

[shamen]

i will look for the books and pages ive seen it, the piece about the blood angels is in the blood angel codex, since angels of death codex. before that it was said in a wd i flicked through a long time ago that sanguinius was in stasis, so they could keep the blood fresh. as for the the references to psyhic's and powers ill will have to dig up my scanned copies of rogue trader and realms of chaos books and sort through it. hope i can get back to you in the future

[shamen]

i will look for the books and pages ive seen it, the piece about the blood angels is in the blood angel codex, since angels of death codex. before that it was said in a wd i flicked through a long time ago that sanguinius was in stasis, so they could keep the blood fresh. as for the the references to psyhic's and powers ill will have to dig up my scanned copies of rogue trader and realms of chaos books and sort through it. hope i can get back to you in the future

 

further to the orginal quote above i have verified most of what i have stated about the blood angels, and a small portion of my research in to psykers which you can see below:-

 

Page 3 of the blood angels codex

 

Scholars claim that the flaw lies in the

process that is used to create each new

generation of Blood Angels, for the Blood

Angels use a process known as

Insanguination to activate their gene-seed.

 

The process was originally triggered by

injecting Aspirants with tiny samples of

Sanguinius’s own blood. This practice ended

with the death of the Primarch, but some of

his blood was preserved in the Red Grail.

The living blood could not be kept for long

and thus was injected into the veins of the

Sanguinary Priests, who became living hosts

to the power of Sanguinius. To this day,

drinking the collected blood of the

assembled Sanguinary Priests from the Red

Grail is part of the ritual of creation for new

members of this important order.

 

 

page 146 rogue trader

 

psykers are humans, but humans who differ from the normal run of mankind in that they possess a strange and dangerous mutation - they manifest psychic powers. the mutation usually develops between the ages of 10 years and 20 years old, although it has been known for psykers to emerge during infancy or even middle age.

 

 

i will carry on my research about space wolves and other psyker related fluff, hope this helps clear up a few things

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

i will look for the books and pages ive seen it, the piece about the blood angels is in the blood angel codex, since angels of death codex. before that it was said in a wd i flicked through a long time ago that sanguinius was in stasis, so they could keep the blood fresh. as for the the references to psyhic's and powers ill will have to dig up my scanned copies of rogue trader and realms of chaos books and sort through it. hope i can get back to you in the future

 

further to the orginal quote above i have verified most of what i have stated about the blood angels, and a small portion of my research in to psykers which you can see below:-

 

Page 3 of the blood angels codex

 

Scholars claim that the flaw lies in the

process that is used to create each new

generation of Blood Angels, for the Blood

Angels use a process known as

Insanguination to activate their gene-seed.

 

The process was originally triggered by

injecting Aspirants with tiny samples of

Sanguinius’s own blood. This practice ended

with the death of the Primarch, but some of

his blood was preserved in the Red Grail.

The living blood could not be kept for long

and thus was injected into the veins of the

Sanguinary Priests, who became living hosts

to the power of Sanguinius. To this day,

drinking the collected blood of the

assembled Sanguinary Priests from the Red

Grail is part of the ritual of creation for new

members of this important order.

 

Well, i cant argue what you have dug up. I don't see how your information can be applied to the other Primarchs. Fulgrim's Legion also had issues with their gene-seed that needed the presence of their Primarch to solve but i see these two cases as the exception not the rule. If you could find the fluff of the space wolves it might begin to move me. Something referring to the Primarchs as a whole or the legions would be best.

 

page 146 rogue trader

 

psykers are humans, but humans who differ from the normal run of mankind in that they possess a strange and dangerous mutation - they manifest psychic powers. the mutation usually develops between the ages of 10 years and 20 years old, although it has been known for psykers to emerge during infancy or even middle age.

 

 

i will carry on my research about space wolves and other psyker related fluff, hope this helps clear up a few things

Well if you were successful in cloning a human that originally had psychic powers, would not the clones have the potential to have powers them selves? That is what i mean by making a psyker. Also like i said above, Mangus the Red's Gene seed caused his Astartes to manifest psychic powers at a abnormally high rate. I think this is another way that psykers were made. Some might say that his gene-seed unlocked the potential that was already in them and that is fine i don't think the difference is worth fighting over.

[Phoebus]

My take...

 

1. There is evidence that Primarchs other than Magnus possessed psychic powers, if less powerful and less controlled. Sanguinius and Konrad Curze both possessed a measure of prescience, and it's possible that Leman Russ (who, in the midst of a feast, suddenly stands up, declares his departure and eventual return) might have developed such an ability near the end.

 

Also, in "Dark King", Konrad Curze also showcases a sort of telekinetic power--he destroys the light sources in his quarters via manifested power.

 

2. The Thousand Sons Index Astartes article simply states that Magnus' Legion was more predisposed to psychic power. It says nothing about a majority or even a sizeable minority of the Legion being Psykers. Non-Thousand Sons Chapters field Psykers commesurate to approximately 1-2% of their numbers. If Magnus' Geneseed was responsible for activating latent/nascent psychic powers in even 10%-15% of the Astartes given it, it would have been a major coup. Coincidentally, such a figure alone would have met the classic interpretation of that Legion: that its Sergeants, Captains, etc. (i.e., its leadership figures) were the ones in possession of psychic power--and not its rank-and-file.

 

This is further reinforced by the fact that the vast majority of the Thousand Sons Legion is comprised of automata--Rubric Marines. These are specifically stated to be those Thousand Sons who did not possess psychic mutation. Ergo, the vast majority of Thousand Sons were not psykers.

 

Bottom line, while it's certainly possible that Magnus' Geneseed acted as a catalyst for the development of psychic mutation, it's obvious that its success rate for doing so was low. If outright cloning was even a feasibility, the Black Ships of the Imperium would be wholly unnecessary: the Adeptus Astropathica and company would just create whatever they needed without bothering to engage in recruitment drives on a galactic scale.

 

An alternative theory on this? Has anyone considered that the Emperor was purposefully trying to achieve certain things with certain Primarchs? That he intended for at least one of them to demonstrate psychic abilities rivaling his own? If this was the case, he would have had a reason to enroll proportionately more psykers in one specific Legion. Of course, prior to the Great Crusade, he was limited to the Terran population for recruitment practices, which left him with far less qualified subjects than would be available when the Grey Knights came about.

 

Cheers,

P.